Stargates: Functionality?

[Fitorion]

The Gates In B5 are like 4 strings of pearls.  They're spaced out kinda like a funnel.  Normally they open a jump point into hyperspace big enough for their largest ships to enter and leave every time no matter the size of ship using them.

 

Once... they did have to move the gate's arms further apart to accommodate a very large object. 

 

The gates are very efficient but not free either.  Gate use fees are collected... but they are collected only at the collecting parties willingness and ableness to enforce the fees. 

 

And of course the long ass real space route is still there.

 

I love the B5 system of hyperspace and want it completely in DU... but I'd be happy if even just a little of it influences design. 

 

I don't like point to point instant travel... especially if such travel isn't range limited.  The ability to travel across all known space in an instant should not be in game.

 

A civilization building game in an endless universe has a problem... It has to limit the rate at which people expand and it has to keep the oldest settlements relevant and populated even as the areas to populate expand.  If everyone can just go out unhindered you get No Man's Sky.  There has to be barriers... which take large group action to overcome to keep people in and building and using the infrastructure.  The vast majority of people need to be tied to their settled location and trading with their neighbors rather than pushing to the outer reaches of known space into the unknown.  The social structure features of this game only work if there are concentrated populations which don't move around too much.   So a system is needed that prevents the lone wolf.  MMOs today cater way to much to individual play.  The leveling process in most games is a single player campaign... you don't need to rely on anyone else during it... so you don't.  Old MMOs, the world outside town was scary if you were alone... there were difficulty walls you'd hit where the monster simply can't be defeated by you alone.  That need for other players has to by built into the game mechanics or the population will disperse, get board, and leave. 

[Cornflakes]

No that is only what you are assuming, at the begin of this topic it was clear that the devs will implement 3 main propulsion types, sub-light , FTL and Stargates and this topic is for the discussion regarding stargate functionality and i think Fitorion knows that and because of that he assumed probably that you also know it. So why should he point something out, if he is thinking that it is clear to all?

 

except the whole thing builds on that theres independent hyperspace movement where you dont necessarily need something at the exit point to jump there... where would that need another FTL drive form?

why would the game need another drive that does the same thing?

 

you also dont have to talk down to me, politeness is nothing confined to real life

 

Yes i get that you are going for a catapult-system, but we could modify the B5 system to allow single-use jumpengines for smaller ships, and with such an expansion you would have your one-way-system. So you could theoratically send a probe with hyperspace beacon trough normal space to your desired destination, this probe would probably travel for several months till it has reached its target. After the arrival of your probe at its destination, you could use a jumpgate to get into hyperspace, travel for 5 minutes or so, till you have reached your the signal of your probe and use your single-use jumpengine to get out of hyperspace.

 

i totally dont get what you people have with this stupid "it may takes months for the probe to arrive" thing.

 

why should the game consist out of waiting, literally?

 

why not make aquiring and preparing the equipment take months instead of building a small probe and then wait for ages...

why that literal time sink which gives nothing interesting for that time.

getting the equipment, preparing the expedition, building the stargate should take ages to do. y'know, the things that provide actual gameplay.

 

 

 

on the whole "get people together" topic.

its the reason why i'd prefer the gates to be the focus point of (at least the initial) exploration.

 

with a gate opening up nearby systems to all players at once, who can build the whole thing as a communal effort and then use it all together would be much more interesting than a group building a ship which can only hold a few people who have the privilegue of seeing the new systems until both sides of the gate are built.

 

even with people spreading over a few systems in the initial boom, they'd have to form new communities there to survive, reconnect home and expand further.

with the "new colonies" diverging technologically a bit before they can reconnect to the main land.

providing variation and competition.

 

the exact system doesnt matter, i'd be fine if we can make a variation of the B5 hyperspace work (heck, i even suggested something working similar for another game with similar requirements).

but i think something purpose built for the game/universe at hand, Dual universe, would be better for everyone than a transplanted and adapted solution which came from a different problem set.

[Darius Sanguna]

except the whole thing builds on that theres independent hyperspace movement where you dont necessarily need something at the exit point to jump there... where would that need another FTL drive form?

why would the game need another drive that does the same thing?

The points of the different propulsion systems are, speed, where you can go, availablity and price.

 

sub-light: the slowest, useful for near planet and POI navigation, will be available for all, will be an early tech and probably pretty cheap.

 

FTL/Warp-Drive (has still no offical name): average speed, useful for in-system-travel and exploration, will be avaiable for, will be a later tech and probably more expensive, something for "older" players not for newbies in terms of resources. With this first two you have no limits in where you can go.

 

Stargates/Jumpgates: near instantaneous travel compared with the other methods, useful for interstellar travel, but you can only travel on fixed routes or in the range of the gates, an even later tech and will theoratically be available to all, but the resource requirements will be so high that only larger oganizations can afford it.

 

The devs gave us a hint how long it could take to get to the stargate tech, somewhere have i read that they are thinking it will us take approximatly one year to get in to space, i assume that they have meant sub-light space travel.

 

you also dont have to talk down to me, politeness is nothing confined to real life

Sorry for that, apparently came out a little different than I thought, was not meant to be rude.

 

i totally dont get what you people have with this stupid "it may takes months for the probe to arrive" thing.

 

why should the game consist out of waiting, literally?

 

why not make aquiring and preparing the equipment take months instead of building a small probe and then wait for ages...

why that literal time sink which gives nothing interesting for that time.

getting the equipment, preparing the expedition, building the stargate should take ages to do. y'know, the things that provide actual gameplay.

Because space, duh.

See the probe as the first step in a chain of events that are needed to explore a new solar system. How the chain would look exactly, would probably depend on the executing player. But what i want also to say is that there is no need for taking care of the probe if its on its way, so you can make something else and if the probe passes something intresting you get a notification.

 

 

on the whole "get people together" topic.

its the reason why i'd prefer the gates to be the focus point of (at least the initial) exploration.

 

with a gate opening up nearby systems to all players at once, who can build the whole thing as a communal effort and then use it all together would be much more interesting than a group building a ship which can only hold a few people who have the privilegue of seeing the new systems until both sides of the gate are built.

 

even with people spreading over a few systems in the initial boom, they'd have to form new communities there to survive, reconnect home and expand further.

with the "new colonies" diverging technologically a bit before they can reconnect to the main land.

providing variation and competition.

I don't get your point, how the system will work in the end, will lay in the hands of the players, the only thing that are given by the devs is the basic game mechanic.

[KlatuSatori]

This is the point, it is only logically that a mothership has the size and the resources for a larger and possibly more powerful tech, such as a jumpengine.

If you remove the jumpengine what would be the point of having such a humongous ship in the game, besides that you want to build it and its possible use as carrier. The only advantage of such a ship that i can see are more and larger weapons, but the effectivness of these weapons against smaller ships shrinks with the growing size. And you are unable to destroy planets in the game, at least as far as i know, so there would be no super weapons, that would require such a ship.

So see the jumpengines more as additional motivation for building such ships.

Why such ships still need jumpgates, can you read in Fitorions posts. I have also mentioned possible single-use jumpengines for small ships.

And jumpgates shouldn't be removed from the equation, because they should be much cheaper as motherships.

 

 

If a mothership not in a rush, it would normally use jumpgates, because of the resources that are needed to jump. So in this case it would also be vulnerabel to attacks.

In case of a rush, an enemy could use advanced sensor and hyperspace sensor probes to detect the ship in hyperspace, calculate the possible exitpoint and intercept, in this case the ship would be even more vulnerable.

 

 

Jumpgates could be able to vary their physical size, but yes in some cases they would need additional energy. In Babylon 5 the jumpgates consists of 2 independent main bodies and several moveable parts on the main bodies, if i remember correctly.

I don't think that is logical at all. We are in the realms of science fiction here, so you can make up any lore you like, and more advanced technology is most certainly not necessarily bigger or heavier. However, with real propulsion bigger only means faster if you don't increase the payload. Put massive engines on a tiny structure and it may go very fast but it can't carry anything.

 

You can't be serious about not being able to think why anyone would want to build a giant ship... How about consolidating a massive amount of firepower and personnel behind extremely strong defences? Transporting massive amounts of goods? An achievement to rally people behind? Your argument of effectiveness against smaller ships is invalid because ships are entirely player designed. You could design a ship to have hundreds of small weapon batteries if you like. I would argue that the only negative of having a large ship is that it's very slow, but you're campaigning to remove this lone disadvantage.

 

In war, mobilisation of force is key. Generally mobilising a small amount of force is easy, a large amount difficult. Take that away and not only is the balance broken, but a massive layer of strategy is removed.

 

You absolutely must remove jump gates from the equation when comparing the speed of two ships. I don't care how fast the jump gate "engine" goes, I care how fast the ship's engines go. Not least because it makes your example contrived. What if I want to go to point D in solar system B? Point D is 5 times further from the gate than point C. So the small ship now takes 55 minutes and the large takes 45.01 minutes.

 

Your resources argument is also bad for gameplay. It is yet another point in making bigger and richer exponentially superior to smaller and poorer. Bigger and richer are intrinsically advantaged. There is no need to give them additional advantages.

[Darius Sanguna]

I don't think that is logical at all. We are in the realms of science fiction here, so you can make up any lore you like, and more advanced technology is most certainly not necessarily bigger or heavier. However, with real propulsion bigger only means faster if you don't increase the payload. Put massive engines on a tiny structure and it may go very fast but it can't carry anything.

I think we talk here past each other. Yes in science-fiction you can make everything as small or big as you want, but if the lore already says "there will be big ass stargates and the technology needs massive amounts of resources and space" It would be logically to me that really big ships could also have the abilities of stargates, but which would be the logical way to explain that tiny ships have also a way to do the same thing as stargates? Yes maybe there will be a tech to make that work, but probably decades, if not even centuries, later.

I doesn't talked about technologies in general, i talked about technologies that will probably be bigger and more resource hungry, such as superweapons and jumpengines. I may have formulated it wrong.

My whole point the entire time was, that jumpengine are only a way to get in and out of hyperspace and in hyperspace it would be necessary to use your normal engines.

 

And regarding the point of a ship with a massive engine that can't carry anything, yes i agree and to get you a picture of what a type of ship i imagine here a little description, basically i imagine a massive military ship, where the jumpengine and the necessary sub-systems to operate the engine, take around one third to the half of the ships volume. This ship should only operate in fleets and its main role should be to act as mobile jumpgate and maybe as CIC for the entire fleet.

 

You can't be serious about not being able to think why anyone would want to build a giant ship... How about consolidating a massive amount of firepower and personnel behind extremely strong defences? Transporting massive amounts of goods? An achievement to rally people behind? Your argument of effectiveness against smaller ships is invalid because ships are entirely player designed. You could design a ship to have hundreds of small weapon batteries if you like. I would argue that the only negative of having a large ship is that it's very slow, but you're campaigning to remove this lone disadvantage.

Yes i know there is more behind it, but i did not want to go into so much detail. That are all good points and they have all their pros and cons in certain situations.

But regarding the weapons in my previous post, i meant "more and/or larger weapons", but i have forgot the "or", sorry for that, i have edited it.

Now to the many small weapons on a huge ship, the only effective advantage for this would be a massive spreadfire to cover a large area, but this would burn trough your ammo and energy storage pretty quick. And everything else would be pretty pointless against much smaller ships, because every reasonably capable pilot could outmaneuver you and stay out of the effective range range of your weapons, but in the same time his effective range against you is much larger, because it is pretty difficult to miss a target that is several cubic kilometers in size. And i mean at a distance just a bit outside of the effective range of the bigger ship.

 

In war, mobilisation of force is key. Generally mobilising a small amount of force is easy, a large amount difficult. Take that away and not only is the balance broken, but a massive layer of strategy is removed.

Yes i agree, but i don't want to take away this layer, it would be just a little shifted, because you would still need to gather your fleet at one point.

 

You absolutely must remove jump gates from the equation when comparing the speed of two ships. I don't care how fast the jump gate "engine" goes, I care how fast the ship's engines go. Not least because it makes your example contrived. What if I want to go to point D in solar system B? Point D is 5 times further from the gate than point C. So the small ship now takes 55 minutes and the large takes 45.01 minutes.

Let me clearify: Point C and the jumpgate in B were meant to be on the opposite edges of System B, so the travel i was mentioned, was across the entire solar system. So your Point D is outside of the system in empty space. My intention is that smaller ships are still faster, if they want to travel inside a system or travel from a system to any point in another system and yes the larger ships could use their jumpengines, but it costs a lot of resources, so much that even a ship with large amounts of resources available, would be forced to refill all 3 to 4 jumps.

 

Your resources argument is also bad for gameplay. It is yet another point in making bigger and richer exponentially superior to smaller and poorer. Bigger and richer are intrinsically advantaged. There is no need to give them additional advantages.

No it is not, what you are thinking is necessary to maintain and man such a massive ship to keep it functional? Such a ship is nothing that you could build for yourself, it would require a whole team of builders, engineers and designers and amounts of resources that are beyond everything that a player or even a small group could gather in their entire lifetime.

And no bigger means not automatically better, in every case it is depending on the situation.

[Fitorion]

thanks. Darius Sanguna

 

You seem to really get what I'm going for here.  I don't understand why some others don't... I can only assume I haven't been explaining it well enough.  I've been trying my best to do so.

[KlatuSatori]

I think we talk here past each other. Yes in science-fiction you can make everything as small or big as you want, but if the lore already says "there will be big ass stargates and the technology needs massive amounts of resources and space" It would be logically to me that really big ships could also have the abilities of stargates, but which would be the logical way to explain that tiny ships have also a way to do the same thing as stargates? Yes maybe there will be a tech to make that work, but probably decades, if not even centuries, later.

I doesn't talked about technologies in general, i talked about technologies that will probably be bigger and more resource hungry, such as superweapons and jumpengines. I may have formulated it wrong.

My whole point the entire time was, that jumpengine are only a way to get in and out of hyperspace and in hyperspace it would be necessary to use your normal engines.

 

Yes, star gates have been described by NQ as massive structures that will require a large amount of time, resources and cooperation to build.  Note however, that these structures are entirely dedicated to a single task, and cannot travel fast themselves.  It is not a given that the same technology can be used to send itself across space.  Much like a catapult can propel a rock at high speed, but not itself.

 

 

And regarding the point of a ship with a massive engine that can't carry anything, yes i agree and to get you a picture of what a type of ship i imagine here a little description, basically i imagine a massive military ship, where the jumpengine and the necessary sub-systems to operate the engine, take around one third to the half of the ships volume. This ship should only operate in fleets and its main role should be to act as mobile jumpgate and maybe as CIC for the entire fleet.

 

Allowing 67% payload and structures on a ship that can travel so incredibly fast is amazingly efficient.  So you are proposing a stargate that can not only transport itself, but transport up to twice its own weight in additional payload and structures!

 

Yes i know there is more behind it, but i did not want to go into so much detail. That are all good points and they have all their pros and cons in certain situations.

But regarding the weapons in my previous post, i meant "more and/or larger weapons", but i have forgot the "or", sorry for that, i have edited it.

Now to the many small weapons on a huge ship, the only effective advantage for this would be a massive spreadfire to cover a large area, but this would burn trough your ammo and energy storage pretty quick. And everything else would be pretty pointless against much smaller ships, because every reasonably capable pilot could outmaneuver you and stay out of the effective range range of your weapons, but in the same time his effective range against you is much larger, because it is pretty difficult to miss a target that is several cubic kilometers in size. And i mean at a distance just a bit outside of the effective range of the bigger ship.

 

This is all just conjecture.  We have no idea what ship and vehicle designs will or won't be effective or possible in the game.

 

Yes i agree, but i don't want to take away this layer, it would be just a little shifted, because you would still need to gather your fleet at one point.

 

I'm sorry but this system does remove a strategic layer from warfare.  And it is a complex layer that has more implications than you or I can reason about.

 

 

Let me clearify: Point C and the jumpgate in B were meant to be on the opposite edges of System B, so the travel i was mentioned, was across the entire solar system. So your Point D is outside of the system in empty space. My intention is that smaller ships are still faster, if they want to travel inside a system or travel from a system to any point in another system and yes the larger ships could use their jumpengines, but it costs a lot of resources, so much that even a ship with large amounts of resources available, would be forced to refill all 3 to 4 jumps.

 

My point is still valid.  Solar systems are not all the same size and are not all the same distance apart.  Imagine a solar system that is five times larger than the one in your example.  Besides the fact that 10 minutes to cross a solar system sounds too fast to me.

 

You are drastically reducing the importance of fast travel within a solar system by bypassing the stargates and allowing powerful ships to land anywhere in a system that they like.  In your vision these ships have so much spare capacity that they can then deploy an entire fleet of ships that move fast within a solar system.

 

Requiring resources does not fix the problem.  Cars need petrol every couple of hundred miles but they can still go a lot faster than bicycles.  It doesn't matter how much petrol you put in the bicycle, it still can't catch up to the car.  Requiring additional resources only exacerbates the problem by providing exclusive advantages to those that already have a large pool of resources.

 

No it is not, what you are thinking is necessary to maintain and man such a massive ship to keep it functional? Such a ship is nothing that you could build for yourself, it would require a whole team of builders, engineers and designers and amounts of resources that are beyond everything that a player or even a small group could gather in their entire lifetime.

And no bigger means not automatically better, in every case it is depending on the situation.

 

How about a large organisation of several hundred players that prides itself on its vast fleet of small to medium size ships, each crewed by between 1 and 30 players.  This type of fleet is unviable because they cannot travel fast on the same scale no matter how many resources they throw into their engines.  Your system forces them to build a massive jump capable ship and shrink the size of their signature fleet and change their distinctive fighting style.  Can you not see how limiting this is on gameplay?

 

How about a small organisation that wants to take a small piece of real estate away from a much larger organisation that is spread thin?  If they concentrate their forces on a weak area, can they destroy the local star gate, take and hold the territory and then demand a settlement?  No, because the large organisation has a superweapon that can deploy a significant force to anywhere they like in a matter of minutes.  Destroying the star gate in this scenario was a waste of time.

 

I understand what you are proposing.  You are proposing that every organisation build a large ship that requires dozens or hundreds of players to build and operate or else be severely restricted in movement capabilities.  Making it require a lot of resources only exacerbates the problem by providing additional advantages to the large and wealthy.  It also shrinks the universe and makes the claiming of large swaths of territory too easy.  The amount of territory that can be claimed and defended by a given number of people is directly proportional to the time it takes to deploy a force across a given distance.

 

When I say "bigger" I mean more defenses, more weapons, more storage capacity, more capabilities, more players, more resources.  "Bigger" on its own of course does not mean better.  More of those things is its own reward, it does not need additional incentive.

[Fitorion]

Making them take so much effort and resources makes them rare.

 

It means only the most massive organizations... like galacticly large controlling many systems could afford more than 1.  And likely a lot of IRL time before any organizations achieves that...

 

Just like In real life Governments have large Carrier groups and can move large quantities of military assets quickly.  This hyperspace mechanic is an analog to Sea going combat.  Real space is the coast line and Hyperspace with gates is the currents and prevailing winds that most ships follow to get around... and powerful ships can get around those restrictions at great expense. 

 

Which means if you attract the attention of such a ship then other parts of their territory are vulnerable.

 

Hit and run tactics would be rather effective.  Hit a place and use the gate to get back into hyperspace before the big ship and its fleet can arrive.  Then high tail it a safe place to take shelter or continue to another location and hit it.

 

force the big ship to expend resources until it to is reduced to using the gates and or has to put in for refueling.

 

 

Destroying a gate is a bad idea in almost all situations.  I've described in other posts about how suicidal attempting to destroy a gate is...  HUGE boom.  any one attempting it would not escape the blast... nor would any space station nearby or planet.  It could crack a planet open if too close or cause mass ecological damage if just on the outer edge of the blast.

 

And unless you had a jump engine equipped ship yourself... you'd be cutting off your only means of escape.

 

 

But you're also ignoring the draw backs of jumping into a system not at a gate. 

1. you will be vulnerable just after jumping in for a while... so you'll want to a. have escort ships and b. not jump too close to the enemy

2. If you don't have spies in the system relaying information on where the enemy fleet is or if jamming is being used... you could collide with ships if you jump too close to the planet they are attacking for instance. 

 

A certain amount of uncertainty in the exact location you'll emerge from hyperspace can and should be present. 

 

A carrier group is a large investment that you don't risk unless you have to and you don't send to far from your core territories which it is defending. 

 

 

This system means small scale skirmishes are common.  The mid range territories see medium class fleets engage... with maybe the odd capital ship popping up here and there.  The core during an all out war sees the massive capital ships duking it out... also the border...

 

 

There is another thing to consider...  the Fragility of space ships...  Armor... hit points... whatever doesn't have to scale linearly or exponentially like Bosses in so many games do...  Weapons that fighter class ships have could and probably should do effective damage even to the largest ships. 

 

Think Dark Souls... where even if you have the best weapons and armor... if you misstep... don't dodge... or make a mistake you can die pretty darn quickly... In space it should be the same.  Every battle even if on paper you have a superior force should be close to disaster if you underestimate your opponent.

[Darius Sanguna]

Yes, star gates have been described by NQ as massive structures that will require a large amount of time, resources and cooperation to build.  Note however, that these structures are entirely dedicated to a single task, and cannot travel fast themselves.  It is not a given that the same technology can be used to send itself across space.  Much like a catapult can propel a rock at high speed, but not itself.

Ah finally the science-finction argument is on my side as far as i know has NQ never stated that star gates needs to be stationary, so the question would be, if star gates must be stationary to function or they can't move due to the lack of propulsion, if the second is true it wouldn't be much of a challenge to make a ship out of it. And in the B5 method that is here suggested, a jump gate would open and maintain a seperated phenomenon, that leads into hyperspace, let us call it a "hole" and would the jump gate stop to maintain the "hole" it wouldn't be instantly closed, so you could theoratically have enough time to push the jump gate through the "hole". Much like a self-closing door that you hold open for other people and after these are through, you go yourself.

 

Allowing 67% payload and structures on a ship that can travel so incredibly fast is amazingly efficient.  So you are proposing a stargate that can not only transport itself, but transport up to twice its own weight in additional payload and structures!

I propose a ship that can carry a stargate as a sub-system and this sub-system would be take away 33% - 50% of the ships volume and this is only a theoratically functional stargate. Nothing else is in this ship, no power generation, no basic propusion (without these two the ship can't even travel, no matter what speed), no life support, no armor, no shielding, no weapons, simply nothing and without all this the stargate can't function, because it has no power and resources. So let us build an example ship: 33% stargate, 20% basic propusion, 10% power generation, 10% resource storage (fuel, food and so on, no operable weaponry or such things), 5% weapons, 5% armor, 5% shielding, 5% life support and the rest is crew quarters, hangars and such things. Yes this is just conjecture, but so could a ship look like.

 

I'm sorry but this system does remove a strategic layer from warfare.  And it is a complex layer that has more implications than you or I can reason about.

I don't see it, please specify.

 

My point is still valid.  Solar systems are not all the same size and are not all the same distance apart.  Imagine a solar system that is five times larger than the one in your example.  Besides the fact that 10 minutes to cross a solar system sounds too fast to me.

Its all just conjecture, in the end it is a matter of balancing.

 

You are drastically reducing the importance of fast travel within a solar system by bypassing the stargates and allowing powerful ships to land anywhere in a system that they like.  In your vision these ships have so much spare capacity that they can then deploy an entire fleet of ships that move fast within a solar system.

No i add importance to fast travel within solar systems, because the defending fleet must be fast enough to encounter the enemy and it adds strategic depths in terms of fleet composition, if you want i can get more into it.

 

Requiring resources does not fix the problem.  Cars need petrol every couple of hundred miles but they can still go a lot faster than bicycles.  It doesn't matter how much petrol you put in the bicycle, it still can't catch up to the car.  Requiring additional resources only exacerbates the problem by providing exclusive advantages to those that already have a large pool of resources.

It adds the point of "is it worth it" into the strategy and why is it bad that the guy with more resources have more advantages? I mean yeah the game should be fair in terms of everyone has the same start conditions, but as the game is progressing there will be some with more resources and with this they have more advantages, thats only natural. And after stargates must be something else to keep the motivation, it is a evolution and is this suddenly stoped or cut down, the motivation to gofurther will drop.

 

So it is late for me it i should go to bed, i will the rest adress tomorrow, good night

[KlatuSatori]

Making them take so much effort and resources makes them rare.

 

It means only the most massive organizations... like galacticly large controlling many systems could afford more than 1.  And likely a lot of IRL time before any organizations achieves that...

 

Again, providing massive organisations with an exclusive superweapon is bad for balanced and strategic gameplay.

 

Just like In real life Governments have large Carrier groups and can move large quantities of military assets quickly.  This hyperspace mechanic is an analog to Sea going combat.  Real space is the coast line and Hyperspace with gates is the currents and prevailing winds that most ships follow to get around... and powerful ships can get around those restrictions at great expense. 

 

Carriers in real life are slow, and only carry a handful of aircraft.  Carriers in space can exist without the need for near-instantaneous travel mechanics.  Hyperspace seems unnecessary in your analogy.  Space is the sea and planets are land, simple.  And again, getting around restrictions because you are rich is a bad mechanic.

 

Hit and run tactics would be rather effective.  Hit a place and use the gate to get back into hyperspace before the big ship and its fleet can arrive.  Then high tail it a safe place to take shelter or continue to another location and hit it.

 

force the big ship to expend resources until it to is reduced to using the gates and or has to put in for refueling.

 

This type of gameplay is much more plausible without these super ships.

 

Destroying a gate is a bad idea in almost all situations.  I've described in other posts about how suicidal attempting to destroy a gate is...  HUGE boom.  any one attempting it would not escape the blast... nor would any space station nearby or planet.  It could crack a planet open if too close or cause mass ecological damage if just on the outer edge of the blast.

 

And unless you had a jump engine equipped ship yourself... you'd be cutting off your only means of escape.

 

Star gates are science fiction.  They do not have to create an explosion so big that anyone nearby would be destroyed.  In fact making star gates permanent in this way would be a terrible idea from a gameplay perspective.  And my point was that the tactic of cutting others off from the solar system is not possible because of these jump capable ships.  If jump capable ships don't exist then it is a viable plan.

 

 

But you're also ignoring the draw backs of jumping into a system not at a gate. 

1. you will be vulnerable just after jumping in for a while... so you'll want to a. have escort ships and b. not jump too close to the enemy

2. If you don't have spies in the system relaying information on where the enemy fleet is or if jamming is being used... you could collide with ships if you jump too close to the planet they are attacking for instance. 

 

These drawbacks are minute compared to the advantages and the disadvantages of actually having to travel in the same way as every other ship.

 

1.  If you have to travel as normal then you could be ambushed en route by a fleet that exploits your weaknesses (not just a gamey disablement mechanic, actual strategy).  So you will need to scout ahead, bring a support fleet, etc.

2.  If you are not certain of your intelligence you could be diverted to the wrong location and end up leaving the wrong place undefended.  You always need to be aware of how far you are actually able to project your most powerful hardware into your defensive and offensive strategies.

 

A carrier group is a large investment that you don't risk unless you have to and you don't send to far from your core territories which it is defending. 

 

You can still build carriers, just not absurdly fast ones.

 

This system means small scale skirmishes are common.  The mid range territories see medium class fleets engage... with maybe the odd capital ship popping up here and there.  The core during an all out war sees the massive capital ships duking it out... also the border...

 

I think the opposite.  This system restricts varied skirmishes because it means that you can always bring everything and the kitchen sink to an engagement.

 

 

There is another thing to consider...  the Fragility of space ships...  Armor... hit points... whatever doesn't have to scale linearly or exponentially like Bosses in so many games do...  Weapons that fighter class ships have could and probably should do effective damage even to the largest ships. 

 

Think Dark Souls... where even if you have the best weapons and armor... if you misstep... don't dodge... or make a mistake you can die pretty darn quickly... In space it should be the same.  Every battle even if on paper you have a superior force should be close to disaster if you underestimate your opponent.

 

I agree with this but it doesn't really have anything to do with making powerful ships fast.

 

We're beginning to go around in circles.  I think we're going to have to respectfully agree to disagree.

[Fitorion]

Another thing to remember... Players provide the civilizations and factions and goals and obstacles to other players in this game.  

 

There isn't going to be an NPC empire to fight against... if an empire exists... it'll be player made.  So if you want the heroes journey experience of starting with nothing and building up a resistance and eventually overcoming an overwhelming force... it has to be possible for an overwhelming force to be created and run by players.

 

But there also have to be vulnerabilities built into it that smaller forces can exploit. 

 

I big jump engine quipped ship is intimidating to be sure... but won't be as fast or maneuverable in real space as smaller ships.  And smaller ships could get through hyperspace using the gates faster in most cases.  It also is costly to operate and can only be in one place at a time.  The ability to make its own entrance and exit to hyperspace is what evens it up with the smaller ships... gives it the chance to cut off the smaller ships sometimes... but not every time.  It gives it the ability to get into a system otherwise inaccessible  Like if an enemy has gathered all their remaining ships for a last stand around 1 planet and disabled the local jumpgate.  as bad as that is...

 

It's also a bit like submarine warfare... not exactly like... but there are some similarities.  Being in hyperspace costs... you can't just stay in there forever... At some point you have to resurface and chance being seen as you resupply... repair... recharge...  There could be epic chases as the last remaining jumpengine equipped ship a faction has is chased from low population system (where it tries to process some raw material to do repairs) to neutral system (where it manages to find someone to sell them fuel) By smaller fighter and medium class ships using the gates... slowly gaining or losing ground on it as people see it and call in a report... or try to guess which system it'll head to next and try to get ahead of it. 

[Fitorion]

Again, providing massive organisations with an exclusive superweapon is bad for balanced and strategic gameplay.

 

 

Carriers in real life are slow, and only carry a handful of aircraft.  Carriers in space can exist without the need for near-instantaneous travel mechanics.  Hyperspace seems unnecessary in your analogy.  Space is the sea and planets are land, simple.  And again, getting around restrictions because you are rich is a bad mechanic.

 

 

This type of gameplay is much more plausible without these super ships.

 

 

Star gates are science fiction.  They do not have to create an explosion so big that anyone nearby would be destroyed.  In fact making star gates permanent in this way would be a terrible idea from a gameplay perspective.  And my point was that the tactic of cutting others off from the solar system is not possible because of these jump capable ships.  If jump capable ships don't exist then it is a viable plan.

 

 

 

These drawbacks are minute compared to the advantages and the disadvantages of actually having to travel in the same way as every other ship.

 

1.  If you have to travel as normal then you could be ambushed en route by a fleet that exploits your weaknesses (not just a gamey disablement mechanic, actual strategy).  So you will need to scout ahead, bring a support fleet, etc.

2.  If you are not certain of your intelligence you could be diverted to the wrong location and end up leaving the wrong place undefended.  You always need to be aware of how far you are actually able to project your most powerful hardware into your defensive and offensive strategies.

 

 

You can still build carriers, just not absurdly fast ones.

 

 

I think the opposite.  This system restricts varied skirmishes because it means that you can always bring everything and the kitchen sink to an engagement.

 

 

 

I agree with this but it doesn't really have anything to do with making powerful ships fast.

 

We're beginning to go around in circles.  I think we're going to have to respectfully agree to disagree.

 

 

You apparently completely don't understand...  You saying things like near instantaneous and thinking the big ships aren't traveling the same way all the other ships shows you don't understand.

 

This system is specifically about making travel take time... to delay interstellar engagements and increase tactical planning and gameplay.  

 

The big ship is slower than small ships both in real space and in hyperspace... the jump engine just gets you in and out.  Once in you're plodding along using the jumpgates beacons as reference just like everyone else... using your slow ass engines as the smaller ships use their smaller mass to go faster.  In probably a 50/50 split you would have to travel farther or shorter a distance to get to where you wanted to exit.  

 

The ability to get out of hyperspace a little closer to the destination just even things up a bit.  How you can think it makes big ships super fast mystifies me.  How you can come to that conclusion... I can't fathom. 

 

 

I suppose you could take everything with you to every engagement... if you

1. left everywhere else undefended... inviting attacks from other factions while you deal with some piddling little raiders...

2. Waited in one spot for days as you gather your forces spread all over the place into the fleet you'll use to crush your enemy... massively telegraphing your intentions... giving them time to move... set traps... time their attack on your undefended worlds to coincide with your fool hardy plan. 

 

 

Getting around restrictions with resources and being able to get around more with more... Welcome to Every game ever and Real Life.  A game centered around as real a depiction of interactions between people as possible is going have this mechanic.  Get used to it.

[KlatuSatori]

You apparently completely don't understand...  You saying things like near instantaneous and thinking the big ships aren't traveling the same way all the other ships shows you don't understand.

 

This system is specifically about making travel take time... to delay interstellar engagements and increase tactical planning and gameplay.  

 

No, this idea reduces the amount of time it takes for powerful hardware to cross the universe. It creates a mystical alternate dimension that exclusively allows big ships to travel long distances by only traveling a short distance. I get it, I don't like it.

 

 

The big ship is slower than small ships both in real space and in hyperspace... the jump engine just gets you in and out.  Once in you're plodding along using the jumpgates beacons as reference just like everyone else... using your slow ass engines as the smaller ships use their smaller mass to go faster.  In probably a 50/50 split you would have to travel farther or shorter a distance to get to where you wanted to exit.  

 

The ability to get out of hyperspace a little closer to the destination just even things up a bit.  How you can think it makes big ships super fast mystifies me.  How you can come to that conclusion... I can't fathom. 

 

 

I suppose you could take everything with you to every engagement... if you

1. left everywhere else undefended... inviting attacks from other factions while you deal with some piddling little raiders...

2. Waited in one spot for days as you gather your forces spread all over the place into the fleet you'll use to crush your enemy... massively telegraphing your intentions... giving them time to move... set traps... time their attack on your undefended worlds to coincide with your fool hardy plan. 

 

Except the small ship cannot punch through into hyperspace without the big ship, can it? It is entirely dependent on it for interstellar travel. If you make hyperspace engines something that any ship of any size can equip, perhaps in different sizes, then maybe we could about the mechanic in more detail. I imagine it would still come up short for various reasons.

 

These points you list exist without the need for your hyperspace. If you include this idea these points are less prominent.

 

Getting around restrictions with resources and being able to get around more with more... Welcome to Every game ever and Real Life.  A game centered around as real a depiction of interactions between people as possible is going have this mechanic.  Get used to it.

The difference is that you are adding fuel to the fire by providing work arounds for disadvantages. I am not against large groups of people rallying together and accomplishing great things, far from it. I am against providing exclusive benefits to a particular play style.

 

Like I said, agree to disagree because we are getting nowhere.

[KlatuSatori]

It adds the point of "is it worth it" into the strategy and why is it bad that the guy with more resources have more advantages? I mean yeah the game should be fair in terms of everyone has the same start conditions, but as the game is progressing there will be some with more resources and with this they have more advantages, thats only natural. And after stargates must be something else to keep the motivation, it is a evolution and is this suddenly stoped or cut down, the motivation to gofurther will drop.

I'll just respond to this. What I want to see is for all sizes of organisation to remain relevant and to be able to hold their own. I want smaller, but smarter organisations to be able to hurt or even defeat larger ones. I want it to be difficult to hold huge swaths of territory for extended periods of time. I want the geopolitical map to be dynamic and ever changing. I want trade offs between advantages and disadvantages of different playing styles, different designs, different strategies, and I want them to scale. I want ground based or single planet organisations to be relevant - and just as powerful as multi planet organisations of similar resources. Super weapons and super fast travel are contrary these ideals.

[Darius Sanguna]

I'll just respond to this. What I want to see is for all sizes of organisation to remain relevant and to be able to hold their own. I want smaller, but smarter organisations to be able to hurt or even defeat larger ones. I want it to be difficult to hold huge swaths of territory for extended periods of time. I want the geopolitical map to be dynamic and ever changing. I want trade offs between advantages and disadvantages of different playing styles, different designs, different strategies, and I want them to scale. I want ground based or single planet organisations to be relevant - and just as powerful as multi planet organisations of similar resources. Super weapons and super fast travel are contrary these ideals.

You are going here for a very very complex topic and many, if not even almost all, of the things you have mentioned here will depend on player strategies. For example let us go with the dificulty of holding large territories, here would have an organization with many smaller ships an advantage over an organization with a few larger ships. For this example let assume that both organizations have an equal amount of resources. So what would be the point of having a few larger ships? Every reasonably intelligent human would go for the many smaller ships. So what could we do to make a few larger ships more attractive? hmm... maybe adding a jumpengine to one of the larger ships.

So you see it has all its pros and cons and theoratically we could continue with examples for every single possibility, so that it is all balanced, but this would us probably cost more than a lifetime. So we have to chose if we take a risk and take a chance or if we go the safe way. I personally prefer the risk, simply because every other game is going the safe way.

[Fitorion]

Except the small ship cannot punch through into hyperspace without the big ship, can it? It is entirely dependent on it for interstellar travel. If you make hyperspace engines something that any ship of any size can equip, perhaps in different sizes, then maybe we could about the mechanic in more detail. I imagine it would still come up short for various reasons.

 

These points you list exist without the need for your hyperspace. If you include this idea these points are less prominent.

 

What do you think the gates do?  They allow the smaller cheaper ships access to hyperspace and an exit to hyperspace.  They allow the lowest cheapest space capable ship you can get to travel across the known universe.

 

The only things the jump engine quipped ships gain is a chance to catch up to the faster smaller ships (but not a guarantee)  and the ability to explore gateless systems.  

 

You seem to have no grasp on this what so ever.  What other fundamental parts of Babylon 5 style hyperspace have you utterly ignored?

 

 

Also there's ways to limit the size of fleet one jump engine equipped ship can let in and out...

1. you could remove the ability to let anyone else in or out... so only ships physically in contact in docking bays and the like could come.

2. Limit how long it can hold the gate open.

3. Make hyperspace fog so dense and sensor inhibiting that only those within a very close distance of the ship can see it and so tell when a jump point is opened for them. 

[KlatuSatori]

The ability to get out of hyperspace a little closer to the destination just even things up a bit. How you can think it makes big ships super fast mystifies me. How you can come to that conclusion... I can't fathom.

 

Here is where I see the crux of our disagreement. What you see as evening things up a bit I see as bypassing an important and fundamental disadvantage.

 

What do you think the gates do? They allow the smaller cheaper ships access to hyperspace and an exit to hyperspace. They allow the lowest cheapest space capable ship you can get to travel across the known universe.

 

What if there's no gate in the system? Ask again how I think this mechanic makes big ships super fast. You have to compare like for like, you can't just throw in a star gate when it suits you.

[Darius Sanguna]

Here is where I see the crux of our disagreement. What you see as evening things up a bit I see as bypassing an important and fundamental disadvantage.

And why exactly is bypassing a disadvantage bad? Since our (mankinds) very beginnig the goal of evolution and technology is to bypass and overcome the disadvantages and obstacles.

And don't throw the "balanced" argument at me, yes i agree that the game need some sort of balance, but you can also over balance one aspect of the game, which would lead to an imbalance of one or mutiple other aspects, the goal is to find a overall balance and this is certainly nothing that can you achieve via simply banning possible features that seems to OP for you. And don't begin with "fair" at the beginning the game will be fair in terms of start conditions, but after that, the game will be so fair as real life is fair.

 

What if there's no gate in the system? Ask again how I think this mechanic makes big ships super fast. You have to compare like for like, you can't just throw in a star gate when it suits you.

In my eye's the jumpengine tech, is a tech that will first appear after the point where almost all developted systems will have a jumpgate and when at this point your system still has no jumpgate, then it will make no difference if the invasion fleet will need 2 hours or 2 weeks, because you aren't able to prepare a defense that could withstand it, at least not in a time period that would a fleet not allow to get to you, even if they would use first generation FTL-drives. I hope the formulation makes sense.

[Cornflakes]

 

Because space, duh.

See the probe as the first step in a chain of events that are needed to explore a new solar system. How the chain would look exactly, would probably depend on the executing player. But what i want also to say is that there is no need for taking care of the probe if its on its way, so you can make something else and if the probe passes something intresting you get a notification.

 

"because space" (or the real argument here "Because realism") is usually a very bad argument for game design, reality rarely makes interesting or fun games

and DU is a game, not a simulation, its supposed to be fun.

 

so why include this big time sink where you can do nothing to further your progress but wait?

 

why not fill this long "wait" with gameplay? 

building/programming the gate

getting telemetry and [quantum physics technobabble] from afar for the jump target coordinates.

 

there are a billion possibilities how to make it take up the same amount of time that are not a straight up "you have to wait this long for this to work".

 

heck this would be the perfect opportunity for a star-wars style "calculating jump parameters" mechanic with player written programs.

where the players have to measure and calculate a large set of parameters for a given source and target coordinate to make a successful jump.

(this would also generate a great place for smart people to affect the universe with programming better jump computers which decrease jump time)

 

the first prototype software would likely need ages to calculate the route from the first stargate to the next system, probably with weeks of in-system testing of the calculation software to optimise it. 

so theres still a month or two between the first interstellar device being built and the first actual travel over interstellar distances.

 

same effect of it taking months to do the stuff, but with actual gameplay attached instead of a timer.

[KlatuSatori]

And why exactly is bypassing a disadvantage bad? Since our (mankinds) very beginnig the goal of evolution and technology is to bypass and overcome the disadvantages and obstacles.

And don't throw the "balanced" argument at me, yes i agree that the game need some sort of balance, but you can also over balance one aspect of the game, which would lead to an imbalance of one or mutiple other aspects, the goal is to find a overall balance and this is certainly nothing that can you achieve via simply banning possible features that seems to OP for you. And don't begin with "fair" at the beginning the game will be fair in terms of start conditions, but after that, the game will be so fair as real life is fair.

 

In my eye's the jumpengine tech, is a tech that will first appear after the point where almost all developted systems will have a jumpgate and when at this point your system still has no jumpgate, then it will make no difference if the invasion fleet will need 2 hours or 2 weeks, because you aren't able to prepare a defense that could withstand it, at least not in a time period that would a fleet not allow to get to you, even if they would use first generation FTL-drives. I hope the formulation makes sense.

But this fundamentally about balance. I believe this idea as you have explained it and I have read it would have serious balance issues.

 

We will have to wait and see what specific ideas NQ have and when that happens we can all express our opinions on them constructively.

[Darius Sanguna]

But this fundamentally about balance. I believe this idea as you have explained it and I have read it would have serious balance issues.

 

We will have to wait and see what specific ideas NQ have and when that happens we can all express our opinions on them constructively.

Yes but no unsolvable issues.

 

Yes i agree lets wait with what NQ comes up.

[Fitorion]

Here is where I see the crux of our disagreement. What you see as evening things up a bit I see as bypassing an important and fundamental disadvantage.

 

 

What if there's no gate in the system? Ask again how I think this mechanic makes big ships super fast. You have to compare like for like, you can't just throw in a star gate when it suits you.

 

Why would a battle be going on in an uninhabited system without a gate? 

 

If someone destroyed the gate... in a system you owned you'd need to go there to rescue what remains of the populace...(since the destruction of the gate killed most of them) but if an enemy faction destroyed the gate in their own system... well they just destroyed most of the value of the system and created their own prison so... why bother?

 

The gate system is fundamental.  Any system worth fighting over has a gate.  Building one is key to exploiting the resources in a system... Each gate in the system expands the number of reachable systems to explore.  Destroying a gate is monumentally stupid... They are the key object in a system you want to control... not destroy.

 

You can't just wish away the gates when it suits you. 

 

Like for like... Going to a system with gate access.  Travel time to any point within the system.  About equal.  covers 95% of all activity.

Going to a system without gate access.  Possible but risky... and you'll want to bring escort ships and impossible for unequipped ships unless you join up with an expedition.  Only done for exploration or extreme desperation. 

 

So you're arguing over an edge case... not a common occurrence.

[KlatuSatori]

Now you are just making up mechanics and situations to suit your argument.

 

Why would a battle be going on in an uninhabited system without a gate? 

 

Who said it was uninhabited just because it doesn't have a gate?  Maybe the gate hasn't been built yet, or maybe it was destroyed.  Maybe the system is not yet completely inhabited but it is valuable for some reason or other and organisations are fighting over its position or resources.  Why do battles occur in the oceans?  Lots of reasons.

 

 

If someone destroyed the gate... in a system you owned you'd need to go there to rescue what remains of the populace...(since the destruction of the gate killed most of them) but if an enemy faction destroyed the gate in their own system... well they just destroyed most of the value of the system and created their own prison so... why bother?

 

The gate system is fundamental.  Any system worth fighting over has a gate.  Building one is key to exploiting the resources in a system... Each gate in the system expands the number of reachable systems to explore.  Destroying a gate is monumentally stupid... They are the key object in a system you want to control... not destroy.

 

You are inventing the consequences of destroying a gate.  There is no information anywhere about gate destruction causing massive explosions.  In fact there is no information on star gate destruction at all.  All we know is that they will be player made and that destruction of player made constructs will be an integral part of the economic systems of the game.

 

So you are saying that only systems with gates will have any "value", and that players in a system with no gate will be imprisoned.  Those are wildly presumptive statements.  I am assuming that a solar system would be able to support literally thousands of players for many years.  I think that is a fair assumption to make given that we know the size of voxels and we know the size of planets - huge; quadrillions of voxels in a single large planet.  We also know how the territory system will work and how many individual territories each planet is likely to have - thousands.  So calling an entire solar system a prison just does not make sense.

 

Continuing from that I can think of lots of reasons you might want to destroy a gate.  It's an important strategic war target.  Why would you want to destroy a trading port, or an airfield, or a mine?  Lots of reasons.  If you can gain control of it, that may be better, but it may not, it is entirely situational and dependent on a lot of variables.

 

 

You can't just wish away the gates when it suits you. 

 

Like for like... Going to a system with gate access.  Travel time to any point within the system.  About equal.  covers 95% of all activity.

Going to a system without gate access.  Possible but risky... and you'll want to bring escort ships and impossible for unequipped ships unless you join up with an expedition.  Only done for exploration or extreme desperation. 

 

So you're arguing over an edge case... not a common occurrence.

 

I am not wishing anything away.  I am comparing one ship's capabilities to another's.  It is you who are bringing things in to suit your argument.

 

Based on the system you've described and the example given, it certainly does not sound as though the two forms of travel are about equal within a solar system or between systems with gates.  And even if it were, that would still break game balance.

 

As for using these things for exploration of new systems being an edge case, I think you don't understand the power of your own mechanic compared with the mechanics that we know about.  It has been said that travel to new systems will take literally months.  If you can bypass that by doing it in an hour, who wouldn't?  Well, small exploration organisations sure won't because they won't be able to build one of your super ships.

 

I think you're making a lot of assumptions about how things will work.  To be fair, so am I, but at least I am basing them on things we actually know about the game.

 

Like I said, let's wait for more information on travel before making further assumptions.  There's not much more to be said about this idea until NQ give us more information.

[Darius Sanguna]

Just don't, please end it here guys, at least till we have something from NQ.

We all have made our points, now its the devs turn.

[Asimos]

I hope not to go too off topic, but to face the discussion with a slightly different point of view...

 

 

 

 

 

And... What if the stargates could only be traversed by the characters and not by their ships or by their equipment?

 

In this way also a, relatively, small corporation could build one of them on an automated ship and send this far far away... When the ship reaches its destination (maybe many weeks later), traversing the gate the people could start from scratch the colonization of the new planet...

 

In this way you could easily travel from one planet to one other but everything you will build or mine, had to be transported with a “traditional” FTL fleet; establishing routes and setting the prerequisites for the existence of both trader and pirates...