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Zen001

Beware of the afk cloaker

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I have played a lot of space genre games and the one thing I like in particular is the ability to cloak. It's very cool and can sometimes be a welcome relief from being hunted all the time. Unfortunately there is one flaw to the cloaking mechanic - the player who simply uses cloaks to disrupt commerce so everyone ends up sitting in station thinking about other games to play - and often do. If you have played EVE you know what I'm talking about.   :mellow:  

 

So I am wondering if Dual Universe will have the ability to cloak. And if so, I pray they have a mechanic that will not allow a player to abuse cloaking by sitting in a system for days on end, even weeks in some cases. It is nothing short of being a griefer and ruins game play for the vast majority of players. 

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I have played a lot of space genre games and the one thing I like in particular is the ability to cloak. It's very cool and can sometimes be a welcome relief from being hunted all the time. Unfortunately there is one flaw to the cloaking mechanic - the player who simply uses cloaks to disrupt commerce so everyone ends up sitting in station thinking about other games to play - and often do. If you have played EVE you know what I'm talking about. :mellow:

 

So I am wondering if Dual Universe will have the ability to cloak. And if so, I pray they have a mechanic that will not allow a player to abuse cloaking by sitting in a system for days on end, even weeks in some cases. It is nothing short of being a griefer and ruins game play for the vast majority of players.

As someone who's never played eve (other than a 5min tutorial) I don't kown what you mean.

 

However, to try and answer you, DU has no limits, you can have 100,000 players standing in the same building and any bottlenecks in travels routes will have to have been designed by players. Everything other than the arkship (and aliens ruins or rare locations ect) will be created by players, so any sections where you could abuse being, what I think is invisiblility, will be player designed. And I'm sure the devs won't include a OP mechanic that can generally be just abused.

 

Hope any of that helps :)

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Hi there,

 

To explain a bit, I think Zen is speaking about what is called "afk cloaking" in EvE: someone gets a PvP ship with a cloak and a "Cynosural Field" (think about it as a beacon used by other ships to jump right on top of it).

He stays cloak in a system where people are living 24 hours per day and you never know if he is afk or not. When he is not, he pin down a vulnerable ship, light the Cynosural Field and gank it with friends.

 

Considering the Arkship protected zone and unlimited space, I believe it will be a lot different in Dual Universe.

 

Regards,

Shadow

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All CCP had to do was put a cycle on the cloak module, say 25 mins so people could go for a cig or bio break. But no, they never really liked that idea, regardless of how many times it was suggested. I guess it increases the friction between groups and to be honest it is an easy one to work around in Eve.

 

Ive been a cloaky camper and ive dealt with cloaky campers. There are worse things in space MMOs, I refer to CODE. Hopefully DU will have a better system to deal with people like that.

 

People play games their way, and ive never had an issue with how they play using their money, BUT I think devs need to look after rookies who are generally unfamiliar with game mechanics or have not yet joined a group/corp/clan/guild.

 

I know this goes against a true sandbox gaming experience, but new members are a games best asset and without them the veterans will soon become bored.

 

I think what I am trying to say is this. Regardless of if its a cloaky ship, a trade mechanic that is not well understood (re. Jita scam), a pirate lifestyle, a monopoly on a specific trade item or an uber high ground rent on a planet. The most important thing is to let it continue, but increase the awareness and develop a countermeasure.

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All CCP had to do was put a cycle on the cloak module, say 25 mins so people could go for a cig or bio break. But no, they never really liked that idea, regardless of how many times it was suggested. I guess it increases the friction between groups and to be honest it is an easy one to work around in Eve.

 

Ive been a cloaky camper and ive dealt with cloaky campers. There are worse things in space MMOs, I refer to CODE. Hopefully DU will have a better system to deal with people like that.

 

People play games their way, and ive never had an issue with how they play using their money, BUT I think devs need to look after rookies who are generally unfamiliar with game mechanics or have not yet joined a group/corp/clan/guild.

 

I know this goes against a true sandbox gaming experience, but new members are a games best asset and without them the veterans will soon become bored.

 

I think what I am trying to say is this. Regardless of if its a cloaky ship, a trade mechanic that is not well understood (re. Jita scam), a pirate lifestyle, a monopoly on a specific trade item or an uber high ground rent on a planet. The most important thing is to let it continue, but increase the awareness and develop a countermeasure.

I  couldn't agree more on 'increasing awareness and develop countermeasures'. This is preferable than uber control over every aspect of the game. 

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The real problem with cloaky campers in Eve is the cynosural fields.  Stealth bombers can't cause an amazing amount of problems on their own.

 

Personally I think everything should have a counter, whether it's a hard counter or soft counter.  Cloaking is something that should have a hard counter.  So you can fit a cloaking device on a ship, perhaps at the expensive of strong defenses?  Well you can also fit a scanning device that de-cloaks cloaked ships, perhaps at the expensive of strong weaponry.  Caught by cloaked ships without scanners?  You're probably going to have a bad day.  Caught by a mixed fleets including scanner ships when your entire fleet is cloaky?  Very bad day.

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The real problem with cloaky campers in Eve is the cynosural fields.  Stealth bombers can't cause an amazing amount of problems on their own.

 

Personally I think everything should have a counter, whether it's a hard counter or soft counter.  Cloaking is something that should have a hard counter.  So you can fit a cloaking device on a ship, perhaps at the expensive of strong defenses?  Well you can also fit a scanning device that de-cloaks cloaked ships, perhaps at the expensive of strong weaponry.  Caught by cloaked ships without scanners?  You're probably going to have a bad day.  Caught by a mixed fleets including scanner ships when your entire fleet is cloaky?  Very bad day.

A really good solution to the AFKer would be having a few hours of cloaking ability before needing to reset cloak or add fuel. This way they would need to actually be in game to insure their ship wasn't decloaked. I'm all for cloaking but it has crippled gameplay for years in EVE.....which is probably why CCP has mentioned a decloaking mod to add to citadels. But I have to wonder why it has gone on so long in the first place? I assume it is because CCP wants it to look like there are more people online than there actually is....unless you include being online as going on a fishing trip for days and leaving your computer on. 

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/snip .... I'm all for cloaking but it has crippled gameplay for years in EVE...... /snip

 

I don't fully understand what it is, but from what I've gathered it is a bad thing and I don't want it. No-one has a good opinion about it.

(Yes there are good things but I feel the overall opinion of it is negative)

 

I feel that the issues people have said about it are too much to risk putting it in where it can be a very big negative, I think either a system should be worked based upon it that works or it should not be put in.

 

Just my opinion on it though, as i never played eve so i'm only judging by the comments in here about it.

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I don't fully understand what it is, but from what I've gathered it is a bad thing and I don't want it. No-one has a good opinion about it.

(Yes there are good things but I feel the overall opinion of it is negative)

 

I feel that the issues people have said about it are too much to risk putting it in where it can be a very big negative, I think either a system should be worked based upon it that works or it should not be put in.

 

Just my opinion on it though, as i never played eve so i'm only judging by the comments in here about it.

 

To be honest, I like cloaking but not at the expense of gameplay. So if I had to chose between non-clocking or cloaking that can be abused, I would pick non-cloaking. But really afk cloaking isn't hard to fix - unfortunately we are talking about CCP and they have made an industry of shooting themselves in the foot. 

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Hi everyone!

 

We plan stealth technology in Dual Universe (even if it's not planned soon).

 

Afk cloaking is indeed a problem in EVE.

Psychological warfare is interesting, as long as it involves activity from the player wanting to do it.

 

From what we have analyzed, afk cloaking has been possible because of a few things:

- the fact that all players in the solar system are displayed on the local chat. If you see someone you don't know, it migh be a spy, or someone planning an ambush.

- the fact that a player can leave from a safe area (space stations) from a unique point (easy to ambush). 

- the fact that a player wanting to leave the solar system generally needs to use a stargate (also an easy place to ambush).

 

As Dual Universe won't work "solar system by solar system" and there won't be only one point of entry/exit for a safe area, this kind of abuse should have a lot less impact in Dual Universe. And if it still does... well, we keep your suggestions in our papers as possible ways to handle it ;)

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Best regards, 

Nyzaltar.

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Hi everyone!

 

We plan stealth technology in Dual Universe (even if it's not planned soon).

 

Afk cloaking is indeed a problem in EVE.

Psychological warfare is interesting, as long as it involves activity from the player wanting to do it.

 

From what we have analyzed, afk cloaking has been possible because of a few things:

- the fact that all players in the solar system are displayed on the local chat. If you see someone you don't know, it migh be a spy, or someone planning an ambush.

- the fact that a player can leave from a safe area (space stations) from a unique point (easy to ambush). 

- the fact that a player wanting to leave the solar system generally needs to use a stargate (also an easy place to ambush).

 

As Dual Universe won't work "solar system by solar system" and there won't be only one point of entry/exit for a safe area, this kind of abuse should have a lot less impact in Dual Universe. And if it still does... well, we keep your suggestions in our papers as possible ways to handle it ;)

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Best regards, 

Nyzaltar.

 

Well I found what I'm going to be investing into straight away then... No-one will see me coming now :D

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I fully understand the cloak issues from Eve. Living in Providence/catch we felt with UK (aka usually cloaked) a lot.

I don't mind the cloaking, but it should either be cycled with a short cool down or have a way to counter it. Some sort of scanning system. Even if it's power hungry and hard to operate you should be able to increase your scan resolution eneough to detect the minute disruption of the cloak.

 

NQs points are valid, and it seems DU won't have the same problem with afk cloakers. But if there are cloaks we still need a way to detect them. Entering exiting FTL, thrusting, weapons, communications, all should give off some detectible signature. Even when motionless it is unlikely you will have a perfect cloak, the ship should give off some em and heat signatures.

 

Even without afk cloaks you fall vulnerable to someone flying in cloaked and doing a bombing run without your sensors detecting them to fire back. So make it expensive. But give us a way to detect them as a countermeasure.

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I fully understand the cloak issues from Eve. Living in Providence/catch we felt with UK (aka usually cloaked) a lot.

I don't mind the cloaking, but it should either be cycled with a short cool down or have a way to counter it. Some sort of scanning system. Even if it's power hungry and hard to operate you should be able to increase your scan resolution eneough to detect the minute disruption of the cloak.

 

NQs points are valid, and it seems DU won't have the same problem with afk cloakers. But if there are cloaks we still need a way to detect them. Entering exiting FTL, thrusting, weapons, communications, all should give off some detectible signature. Even when motionless it is unlikely you will have a perfect cloak, the ship should give off some em and heat signatures.

 

Even without afk cloaks you fall vulnerable to someone flying in cloaked and doing a bombing run without your sensors detecting them to fire back. So make it expensive. But give us a way to detect them as a countermeasure.

 

I'll second this actually.

 

As much as i'd like to be a silent warrior that attacks from the depths of space in cloak and out again before you even know what hit you. I wouldn't like it to be done to me.

 

Cloaking and stealth are fine, but there needs to be the correct counter for the ability. If there is no counter then the ability is automatically overpowered, making it just expensive wouldn't work either, because you would have large organisations that have the entire fleet in stealth but the normal average persons wouldn't be able to get it, giving them a advantage (obviously like Nyz says people will always have the advantage somewhere). 

 

However there is a quote somewhere from Nyz, detailing that there should be a counter to everything that makes someone great (can't remember the exact quote) but I took it in the way that, if you have the biggest bestest ship in the universe you fall victim to small ships, because that is your weakness/counter. (Just realised I could explain better using the work weakness)... 

 

Rephrase.. For every power there will be / try to be a weakness involved to people don't just dominate the game... If only I could find the quote, this would be easier..

 

But yeah, Stealth is awesome, but a way to detect stealth would be required.

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My ship may be big but my wall of flak turrets will spread your bomber.

 

But yes I agree. As long as there's a method to counter it I am fine, even if it is costly.Eve did not have a viable method.

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My ship may be big but my wall of flak turrets will spread your bomber.

 

But yes I agree. As long as there's a method to counter it I am fine, even if it is costly.Eve did not have a viable method.

 

Maybe there could be a IR scanner or heat signature from engines. Where you can turn off systems to reduce your signature but you have reduced 'element' performance.

 

This makes me think of the FireFly episode where Wash flys the ship at the spacestation to dock without any power or systems running so he can get past the defence system without it seeing him... Something about 'throwing a dart at a dart board a mile away while blindfolded'.....

 

Like a leaf on the wind...

 

 

nora,

 

p.s. I feel like we're just having one big conversation across the entire forums now, seems to be mostly me and you talking about the different topics.. :)

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Yes I like that idea. It goes with something mentioned earlier, you can cloak at the cost of something else. The less you do the harder you are to detect. And you could still perform sneak attacks. Like snipers you creep in over the span of a day and power up, decloack and open fire when near. But there's always a Risk of detection.

 

"What do you mean emergency landing?"

"Oh shit oh shit were all gunna die"

 

 

And yes but from what I can see most people aren't active at this time. In like 6 hrs I find the forums are more active.

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Yes I like that idea. It goes with something mentioned earlier, you can cloak at the cost of something else. The less you do the harder you are to detect. And you could still perform sneak attacks. Like snipers you creep in over the span of a day and power up, decloack and open fire when near. But there's always a Risk of detection.

 

"What do you mean emergency landing?"

"Oh shit oh shit were all gunna die"

 

 

And yes but from what I can see most people aren't active at this time. In like 6 hrs I find the forums are more active.

 

Yeah, i agree, i usually wake up to a few posts that I go around and offer my 2 cents in (maybe more than 2 cents sometimes).. but between 5pm - 11pm GMT:0 it's usually quite quiet sadly... 

 

Also, that's serenity.. tut.. tut.. and it's:  

 

"This landing is going to get pretty interesting"

"Define 'Interesting'."

"Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die"... 

 

Psssh.. :)

 

Also, PROOF.. couldn't help myself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1IMM5XOwaM&ab_channel=donlatt

 

Well now, that's DevisDevine... I'm going to have to watch all FireFly and Serenity now.... of course I did this to myself, but i need someone to blame :)

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Hi Nyzaltar,

 

I disagree with your analysis :

From what we have analyzed, afk cloaking has been possible because of a few things:

- the fact that all players in the solar system are displayed on the local chat. If you see someone you don't know, it migh be a spy, or someone planning an ambush.

- the fact that a player can leave from a safe area (space stations) from a unique point (easy to ambush). 

- the fact that a player wanting to leave the solar system generally needs to use a stargate (also an easy place to ambush).

 

First point is valid : in wormhole space, where there is no local, you don't have cloaky campers problems because you never know what is in the system and people live with it.

 

But the two other are not a problem for me. Because of cloaking mechanism in EvE, a cloaked ship cannot stop anyone from warping in or out a safe place. He first need to wait a few seconds before being able to target, and then there is the targeting delay itself. Thus, the target can either warp off the station or even dock up again if he gets caught anyway.

Same point applies to gate. Nobody is afraid by a cloaky camper when passing gates and farmers usually change system when there is one in their farming land.

The only situation where the above is not 100% true is when an interdictor uncloaks and launch an interdiction sphere. But it's rarer because that kind of ship cannot warp cloaked and, for the bubble to works, it must be on the target path and on the same destination grid (~location).

 

How do cloaky campers catch targets then ? When they are fighting or mining in space, usually against NPC, when pilots are less concentrated. Target is not moving, or at least not aligned, the camper uncloaks, bumps the target to make sure it won't align out, and catch him.

 

As you said, Dual Universe won't have sharded systems and, I assume, no local. So cloaky campers should not be a problem.

I would make some suggestions about cloaking, but I need a better idea on how gameplay will look like before going into speculations.

 

Regards,

Shadow

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...

 

As Dual Universe won't work "solar system by solar system" and there won't be only one point of entry/exit for a safe area, this kind of abuse should have a lot less impact in Dual Universe. And if it still does... well, we keep your suggestions in our papers as possible ways to handle it ;)

 

..

 

This anwser some questions thanks.

 

Now I am thinking about that the game plays "just" in one Galaxie. Dont understand me wrong it is immersive:

Just take a look Milky Way = 100.000 - 120.000/180.000 light years in Diameter and approximately 2ly in thikness ( this is realy small )

Between 100-400 Billion Stars in it.

 

Now I am thinking of No Man´s sky or Spore. But travelling from one Planet to another one ?? All planets have a fix Environment/Sphere with Moons Asteriods etc where you jump in ??

I am not sure if this is what I call freedom.

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This anwser some questions thanks.

 

Now I am thinking about that the game plays "just" in one Galaxie. Dont understand me wrong it is immersive:

Just take a look Milky Way = 100.000 - 120.000/180.000 light years in Diameter and approximately 2ly in thikness ( this is realy small )

Between 100-400 Billion Stars in it.

 

Now I am thinking of No Man´s sky or Spore. But travelling from one Planet to another one ?? All planets have a fix Environment/Sphere with Moons Asteriods etc where you jump in ??

I am not sure if this is what I call freedom.

 

All games I've played so far have the "Jump to get here" idea that I don't like. Jump around the universe but don't actually fly there at all ?... no thanks.

 

DU is going to do it right, I like that you can just fly and fly and fly and end up at some other solar system half the galaxy away (or inside a star if you go afk incorrectly).

 

When you have to 'Jump' from planet to planet like in SE it just spoils the game for me, flying at FTL and not jumping is totaly fine, I want to see the planet get closer and closer till i'm just about to crash into it. Like the new Star Wars, lightspeed into the planet to get past the shields ect.

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I fully understand the cloak issues from Eve. Living in Providence/catch we felt with UK (aka usually cloaked) a lot.

I don't mind the cloaking, but it should either be cycled with a short cool down or have a way to counter it. Some sort of scanning system. Even if it's power hungry and hard to operate you should be able to increase your scan resolution eneough to detect the minute disruption of the cloak.

 

NQs points are valid, and it seems DU won't have the same problem with afk cloakers. But if there are cloaks we still need a way to detect them. Entering exiting FTL, thrusting, weapons, communications, all should give off some detectible signature. Even when motionless it is unlikely you will have a perfect cloak, the ship should give off some em and heat signatures.

 

Even without afk cloaks you fall vulnerable to someone flying in cloaked and doing a bombing run without your sensors detecting them to fire back. So make it expensive. But give us a way to detect them as a countermeasure.

 Didnt Star Trek (films and TV) have the ability to detect cloaky Klingons?

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I believe they did eventually. Something along the lines of detecting disruptions in the spare around a cloaked ship. Was it wrath of Kan they were fighting with a cloaked birthday of prey?

 

That could be one method. We can manipulate gravity so a cloaked sensor could monitor disruptions in the gravity field by cloaked mass. Now they could make their ship massless, but giving that tech we could have infinite acceleration on massive ships and I don't think they the Devs will give us that. So just monitor gravity fields from the local bodies or send out your own gravity waves to detect a cloaked ship.

 

That could make thigs interesting. While there's less mass there to produce gravity well in deep space, there's less disruptions. Likely making it easier to detect a small ship there over inside a planets gravity well with various fluctuations and other objects around.

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