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DevisDevine

Component Research

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Currently we know there is blueprints for components that would go on your creations (power, thrusters, controls, shields). Each of these will have its own mesh that would be placed on a ship with certain attribute values. I hope there are dozens of variants of each component type to give some versatility in choices. But these will be limited by the number of components the Devs create and implement.

 

While being able to use as many of these as we please on our creations is great, it is still a limiting factor, especially if space is a factor. What I would like to see is a research system to have RNG modifiers to these base components. This is not a unique idea, and has been done to various degrees in games, but Limit Theory is the only one to my knowledge attempting to implement it in this manner. It  is actually where I got the idea from. We will already have a RNG universe so why not RNG other things. 

 

The way it could work is to have the basic BPs that the ark provides. You can then do research on these blueprints (maybe in some special lab that requires resources) for a chance to produce a new BP with RNG modifiers to its base attributes. These could be good or bad, i.e. +5% to turret damage as well as -3% turning speed.  There could even be a chance you would get all positive or all negative modifiers or maybe dont get any at all.   You could then take this researched BP and attempt to research it further for more modifiers. The component could share the same name and mesh model as the parent component, just containing a different meta tag. 

 

This would allow for truly unique designs as maybe I dont care about component weight but need fire power. Or I dont care about power storage capacity, just power generation. So I could have more ability to customize my creations by choosing a blueprint with the attributes I want. This could even open a whole new market as you could sell your blueprints that you have researched and modified. Entire business could be started solely as a research lab producing these things. 

 

 

Now heres where it could be interesting, imagine you buy someones fighter BP to make and it requires 12 MK 1 thrusters and 3 guns. If you had modified versions of this it would be awesome to tell it use your version (remember it has the same model and ID) instead of the basic version. So now you can have 2 identical looking ships but with different performance metrics. 

 

 

I think for a game with unlimited variability in everything else, this would help remove the one major limitation I see. Now indexing these meta tags may become complex, but in a game that plans to implement such a detailed but complexed permissions system I think it is doable. 

 

What does everyone else thing about this?

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why dont we just make it like aliens.

 

not even limiting ourselves to 'components' but create an entire new way of handling things.

 

if i want to propulse ships, why dont i create my own way of doing that without making "components".

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why dont we just make it like aliens.

 

not even limiting ourselves to 'components' but create an entire new way of handling things.

 

if i want to propulse ships, why dont i create my own way of doing that without making "components".

Well you would have to have some type of structure to build things in game that would do that. Its a question of level like were talking about. 

 

Now since it supposed to be Newtonian mechanics if you wanna to chunk rocks out of your ship to move then that should work. You just need a method to throw the rocks out. 

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Yeah but open your mind. Dont think so limited. I just had the realization that we shouldnt even limit ourselves to components in that sense. Just adopt a whole new way of "handling things".

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Yeah but open your mind. Dont think so limited. I just had the realization that we shouldnt even limit ourselves to components in that sense. Just adopt a whole new way of "handling things".

What do you mean by this?

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I could agree with the idea if the numbers were not random generated. I would rather want small but reliable  increments of stats.

The problem with that in an unlimited game is that it would then be pre defined. 

 

Your turret would just be Turret MK 1 Research level 1 or research level 5 or 30. Furthermore I could just do my own research to get the exact same thing as you. It would never be unique. 

 

With RNG its more realistic, you may have found a way to use less power in those lasers, or maybe you didnt. Maybe the power reduction even allows for more damage, or maybe its less damage. You then get to decide if you like that aspect. If so then you can research on it more for another RNG outcome.   Now I wouldnt expect this to be truly RNG, I would expect limits and ranges on the modifications. 

 

But by continuing this process you may end up with a laser that does twice the damage and the same firing rate as normal with only 30% increase in power. Or maybe you took a bit more time and have it do more damage and less power because you researched it until you got exactly what you wanted. And this would be a unique BP because maybe the other guy only has 1.75% damage with a 1.2% fire rate increase and a 0.75 range modifier. You can then decide what aspects you care about more.  A fighter, maybe range isnt so important since you will be close range in dogfights, but you are short on power. But your long range bombardment ship needs that range, but has power to spare. 

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The problem with that in an unlimited game is that it would then be pre defined. 

 

Your turret would just be Turret MK 1 Research level 1 or research level 5 or 30. Furthermore I could just do my own research to get the exact same thing as you. It would never be unique. 

 

With RNG its more realistic, you may have found a way to use less power in those lasers, or maybe you didnt. Maybe the power reduction even allows for more damage, or maybe its less damage. You then get to decide if you like that aspect. If so then you can research on it more for another RNG outcome.   Now I wouldnt expect this to be truly RNG, I would expect limits and ranges on the modifications. 

 

But by continuing this process you may end up with a laser that does twice the damage and the same firing rate as normal with only 30% increase in power. Or maybe you took a bit more time and have it do more damage and less power because you researched it until you got exactly what you wanted. And this would be a unique BP because maybe the other guy only has 1.75% damage with a 1.2% fire rate increase and a 0.75 range modifier. You can then decide what aspects you care about more.  A fighter, maybe range isnt so important since you will be close range in dogfights, but you are short on power. But your long range bombardment ship needs that range, but has power to spare. 

You misunderstood me. "Reliable increments of stats" that I envision are researched improvements to the same object. A piece of steel usually would have a basic and universal value of toughness. But you could research production of the same pieces of steel which are always 1% tougher. With more research you would gain another 1% of tougness. Rinse and repeat until you are satisfied with the toughness of your steel. No randomness here. You just spend your research time for a reliable, repeatable increase of an efficiency.

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Why not incorporate both ideas into a single one?..

 

You research a item and it's increase in performance by a number based off of your 'research skill' with slight inaccuracies giving the whole RNG aspect to the amount the item will increase by.

 

Higher the research skill the higher range of increase you can have, but you can only research something once. So it would be like an improved version of the base item. 

 

You could go back an research the same item again once you have a higher level in research to increase it a little more, but because of the RNG you may need to do this several times before you get that type of states you want.

 

However any research would need to have a balancing effect, because I don't like the idea that people who spend time researching are going to have OP items, without any restrictions to them. You could have them increase in weight, or power usage, or size ect... So there would be a reason 'not' to research them all to max. If you have a small ship you don't want big heavy weapons because your manoeuvrability would decrease, and your target size would be bigger ect.. 

 

You could 'choose research increase'.. so if you have a research skill of say '100' you can decrease the skill you apply to researching to '50' and the increase wouldn't be so much reducing the balancing effect that increases weight, size or power... This would make it a balancing act on what stats you want vs. the counter-balance stats you don't want.. 

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No. I hate random numbers.

Ehem...

There is a valid use case for material improvement. If you specialise in let's say production of ship hulls, you could sell those for better price if they have improved stats. This example also uncovers the need for a factory-wide implementation of this idea if it ever gets accepted.

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No. I hate random numbers.

Ehem...

There is a valid use case for material improvement. If you specialise in let's say production of ship hulls, you could sell those for better price if they have improved stats. This example also uncovers the need for a factory-wide implementation of this idea if it ever gets accepted.

 

If there is not randomness to it then everyone will eventually be selling the exact same stuff and the only competition would be market value of the item itself, people with the most money would win as they would just buy all the less valuable identical items and put them back on at a higher price controlling the market of that item..

 

Well maybe not quite that, but it's a possibility..

 

including RNG (even though i'm not a far of RNG myself either) would give a unique-ness to the items, and a failure chance that you might not get the stats you want. Uniqueness gives different items and a larger market.. 

 

Also, without RNG i would probably say people would have a 'Best Item' to aim for, as you can just make it without without requiring effort... like a recipe.. you put in X Materials and you get out Y Item with exactly the same stats every time..

 

Maybe i'm just being a little picky.. but i do think RNG does have some value when it's used correctly

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You did not consider the fact that the suplly of the "best items" will be limited. Very limited. There is no way around it. Knowing people, such supplies will be actually further limited on purpose to drive the price up.

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You did not consider the fact that the suplly of the "best items" will be limited. Very limited. There is no way around it. Knowing people, such supplies will be actually further limited on purpose to drive the price up.

 

Why would they be limited though?.. With hundreds of thousands of people playing i don't see why there would be a limit of any item.. Everyone who's selling items will always try to sell the best item they can, or what's the point in selling it?. no one will by a sub-par item unless they don't have the money for a more expensive item... 

 

Take WoW (poor example i know)... the supposedly really difficult items that were 'best in game' are just in abundance all over the auction houses, i could log in now and equip myself with the top end gear and not have to worry about supply, if i have the cash.. 

 

Anyway.. this market supply and limitations is beside the original point of the topic.. it was to consider the act of research and developing better items and a method on how to do that... 

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The WoW is a bad example because all those items are monster drops (I am wrong? I played WoW for just a short time long time ago). This is a completely different mechanism than what will be in DU. An example of what would happen is the car market IRL. While the improvements lie in construction techniques not components themselves, there is a general trend. The better, bigger, nicer or more posh cars are more expensive and in smaller numbers.

Also, the WoW example you bought made me remember that this game is the very reason for my hate of randomness in games. You could grind a dungeon for months and not get what you want. This is just sad and a waste of time.

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but on the other hand more "realistic" and gives the player more freedom while a closed system where you have a set range of resarch is better for singleplayer games suited and causes the older players to lose interest over time as well as being unfair for new players and groups.

 

remember that DU will be an entire new concept.

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I think an answer to the problem of unfairness would be to move the whole concept of development reseach from players to organizations. This way even a relative newcomer can help his organization by funding or supplying the research materials.

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yes but the problem remains that if you have a tech tree of level 1 to level 10, you will dramatically box the players in once they reached the final level.

 

all i want for DU is to not use something like that. instead i want them to use something like i mentioned in my other thread and that devisdevine mentioned.

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I think an answer to the problem of unfairness would be to move the whole concept of development reseach from players to organizations. This way even a relative newcomer can help his organization by funding or supplying the research materials.

 

No.. Just no, all of my No to that..

 

How would this remove the unfairness?... This would essentially restrict new/single-player people from an entire section of the game.

You shouldn't be forced to join an organisation, you should still be able to do everything single-player, but it just takes a hell of a lot longer..

 

EDIT: unless you mean NPC organisations..

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You could be just an external patron.

Or not care at all and only buy the parts you want.

Do you think every single player will want to engage in this development?

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You could be just an external patron.

Or not care at all and only buy the parts you want.

Do you think every single player will want to engage in this development?

 

Well i know personally i'd like to be able to just fly off and do everything solo on a desolate moon somewhere if i'm required, being sneaky sneaky my reliance upon other people will more than likely be restricted to only a select few.

 

But still I don't think any gameplay should be restricted to organisations and should be open to anyone, given they have enough time and resources to do it... (Unless of course the actually activity is something only organisations do obviously)

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Wow I was gone all day and this went a bit crazy. Im going to try to cover responses on the main points. 

 

 

 

Why not incorporate both ideas into a single one?..

 

You research a item and it's increase in performance by a number based off of your 'research skill' with slight inaccuracies giving the whole RNG aspect to the amount the item will increase by.

 

Higher the research skill the higher range of increase you can have, but you can only research something once. So it would be like an improved version of the base item. 

 

You could go back an research the same item again once you have a higher level in research to increase it a little more, but because of the RNG you may need to do this several times before you get that type of states you want.

 

However any research would need to have a balancing effect, because I don't like the idea that people who spend time researching are going to have OP items, without any restrictions to them. You could have them increase in weight, or power usage, or size ect... So there would be a reason 'not' to research them all to max. If you have a small ship you don't want big heavy weapons because your manoeuvrability would decrease, and your target size would be bigger ect.. 

 

You could 'choose research increase'.. so if you have a research skill of say '100' you can decrease the skill you apply to researching to '50' and the increase wouldn't be so much reducing the balancing effect that increases weight, size or power... This would make it a balancing act on what stats you want vs. the counter-balance stats you don't want.. 

 

Thats an interesting way to go about it, but I would suggest maybe have a higher end lab more than higher research level. But maybe the research level would come into play on what lab types you can use. 

I would like there to  be some sort of infinite variability, but possibly the chances of bad outcomes start outweighing good ones once your 'n researches in. Like the first time you research you have a good chance at getting a larger and more positive increase, such as +15% range. But as you get more downt he line, say 20th research level on a blueprint, each research could be more costly and less likely of giving good results, maybe only +2% range and often getting -10% fire rate. I agree some balancing but no set limit

 

 

You misunderstood me. "Reliable increments of stats" that I envision are researched improvements to the same object. A piece of steel usually would have a basic and universal value of toughness. But you could research production of the same pieces of steel which are always 1% tougher. With more research you would gain another 1% of tougness. Rinse and repeat until you are satisfied with the toughness of your steel. No randomness here. You just spend your research time for a reliable, repeatable increase of an efficiency.

 

Regardless of max level you are still limiting it in some aspect. There is still a set limit of variability. 

And remember in the real world you cant always get the steel to be tougher, its trial and error. and that toughness may come at a cost of weight or flexibility. You never know what type of improvement you will get when doing research, if you get one at all. 

 

 

yes but the problem remains that if you have a tech tree of level 1 to level 10, you will dramatically box the players in once they reached the final level.

 

all i want for DU is to not use something like that. instead i want them to use something like i mentioned in my other thread and that devisdevine mentioned.

 

I completely agree, thats why I suggested some sort of RNG system in the first place. There is always something that can be better or always a different status distribution. 

 

Well i know personally i'd like to be able to just fly off and do everything solo on a desolate moon somewhere if i'm required, being sneaky sneaky my reliance upon other people will more than likely be restricted to only a select few.

 

But still I don't think any gameplay should be restricted to organisations and should be open to anyone, given they have enough time and resources to do it... (Unless of course the actually activity is something only organisations do obviously)

 

I am with you, I tend to play with a small very group of people. I want the ability to do anything in the game with a few people as long as we have the skills needed. I hate requiring a critical mass of members to do things. Especially in a game where meta gaming will be big. 

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