Thoughts on Stargates and FTL

[Ripper]

Hey everyone,

 

These are my thought on FTL and Stargates.  They also address the shardless/zoneless concept.

 

I'm not sure how you plan on instancing your servers, so take this for what its worth.

 

Space is like a desert, or ocean.  There's VAST amounts of nothing, with a few pockets (relatively speaking) of interest.  Even within our own solar system, it takes 5.5 hours for light to get from the Sun to Pluto.

 

What does this mean for space travel?  There's a LOT of nothingness to travel through to get to something interesting.  Traveling at the speed of light isn't conducive for dogfights, so I don't expect our standard mode of travel to reach those speeds.  And I don't want to wait 6 hours to travel halfway across a solar system.  And I CERTAINLY want to travel to other star systems.

 

So here are my thoughts:

 

1. Standard thrusters would be used for normal travel and dogfighting.
2. Alcubierre drives would be used for travel WITHIN the system. 
3. And Stargates would allow for jumps between Star Systems in a timely manner.

 

The Novaquark supplied Stargates would allow for travel to star systems, but users could still build their own to travel to discovered places.

 

With the VASTNESS of SPACE, I don't see why there couldn't be zones between star systems.   Even an Alcubierre drive would take too long for me to get to Alpha Centauri.   It takes 4.5 years for light to travel to Alpha Centauri.  10 times the speed of light, would mean I could get there in 6 months.  Even 100 times the speed of light is too long for the game, and it's also unrealistic, but 10 times the speed of light would allow me to travel from the Sun to Pluto in less than 30 minutes, with an Alcubierre drive.

 

Zoning between stargates would allow for dedicated server clusters for individual star systems.  Which would take the load off a centralized server farm.

 

Alcubierre drives would need to spin up and down, allowing for interdiction.  However, its not realistic to have interdiction during FTL travel.  Alcubierre drives would most likely be too large for smaller ships, necessitating the need for carriers.

 

Stargates would create choke points.  Choke points will be needed to induce PvP combat.  However, I see no reason why single seated ships couldn't travel through them like a capital ship.

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents fwiw.

[Ripper]

This solution would ALSO allow Novaquark to build out its universe at its leisure.  You could design a handful of star systems, and interconnect them with star gates.  The server clusters would be developed to handle the initial player base.

 

Then Novaquark could design additional content and server infrasturcture once the game becomes a HUGE success.  All they would need to do is drop additional jump gates to these new assets, into the existing game.

[Astrophil]

I hope DU somehow does things differently than Elite in terms of traveling between systems, because we all know how fun it is to deliver a package to its destination 63 systems away...

 

I think this is an example where NQ will have to consider the balance between immersion and fun, unless Stargates are able to allow instantaneous travel between systems. Potentially they could be massive wormholes that allow space-time folding, essentially allowing ships to pop in and out of existence in places (like the TARDIS, but without the time travel and not as portable).

[norab7]

I wouldn't be against some form of quick travel around the universe, but i think it has to have it's limits and uses. It shouldn't be relied upon for travel because i think it would be immersion breaking if done incorrectly.

 

I'm thinking of something like WoW and gryphons. It's always faster to travel there yourself and you get to see the sights but if you don't want to spend the time travelling you can join a auto-plotted course or path that you follow totally safe from anyone to your destination. I would like this...

[KlatuSatori]

Travel time is a very important factor and one that should not be leapt into without thinking.  In an arena/area of control style game, quick travel by large numbers of players and hardware is game breaking, or at least game changing.  It also devalues or completely removes true exploration and scouting as professions.  NQ have only touched on these issues in the past but you can get an idea of where their heads are by reading the devblogs and some of the threads.

 

While some form of the standard/warp/jump system seems probable, check out this thread for some other ideas (including my own ).

 

If I recall correctly, I don't think there will be any pre-made stargates.  Only player-made stargates.  I believe the idea is that FTL will be the only form of interstellar travel to begin with, but then players who travel to neighbouring systems will be able to settle there and build stargates to link to where they came from.  I think this would be a great system and it is in keeping with progression from starting out on the ground, building settlements, building ships to get into space, etc.  Progressive exploration and improvement.  As a side note, however, I think it is important that stargates are extremely limited in range - depending on the size of the game universe, of course.

 

Regarding warp/alcubierre drives being "too big" to fit on small ships, I couldn't disagree more.  These are fictional engines, so the limiting factor is only in your head.  These should scale and balance in the same way that "normal" engines do, i.e. the bigger the drive, the faster you can go, but the heavier the payload/ship, the slower it goes.  Hence great behemoth ships should need massive FTLs and would still be relatively slow.  Light-weight explorers could go much faster with a much smaller FTL.

 

Check out this devblog thread to get an idea of the direction NQ are thinking and for an insight into the importance of not making fast travel too easy.  Oh and this one too.

 

Forgot about choke points, which is a really important point.  Forced choked points are not necessary.  Simply ensuring that there are exploitable assets in space, in solar systems and on planets is enough to encourage conflict.  However there is also area control, player ambition and politics at work.  That is more than enough to make players fight each other.

 

Player-made stargates are actually an example of this at work.  If an organisation of players built a stargate for fast travel to a neighbouring system, they must have had a reason to do that.  Exploiting resources, controlling a region/planet, trading, something.  This is something to fight over.

 

However, I think that macroscale terrain in space that affects how ships fly, engines work, and weapons operate in varying ways and degrees is a way to create choke points in space in the way that they are created on the ground by terrain such as hills and rivers that we are more familiar with.

[Ripper]

If it takes 6 months to travel to Alpha Centauri (our closest neighboring star) at 100 times the speed of light.  In order for us to get there in an hour, we would need to travel at 70,000 times the speed of light. 

 

I understand the game needs to have a decent travel time between star systems.  I'm wondering how you can justify the concept of traveling 70,000 times the speed of light. 

 

 

Now consider travel via a stargate.  I jump through a stargate into a new star system.  I then need to travel to a point of interest.  Assuming the star system is the same size as our own solar system, I would still need to travel 30 minutes using the Alcubierre drive to get halfway across the system at 10 times the speed of light.

 

And this is to a known waypoint of something like a space station.  You're not going to be able to explore the star system while traveling FTL. 

 

Discovery and exploration of the system would need to be done via standard thrusters and sensors.  Heck, ANY interaction other than point-to-point travel (including maneuvering) should require you to drop out of FTL travel.

 

I took a look at the PHYSICS thread, and you admit there needs to be some sort of FTL drive.  But I didn't see your recommendation.  I really don't have a problem with your suggestion regarding normal travel with thrusters.

 

All-in-all, I'd say this discussion is moot, because the devs already have a plan in place.  This thread is just my personal opinion on how to implement travel across a galaxy within a game.

 

BTW the size of the engine (force applied) would only effect the acceleration, not the speed of the object.  A small ship with a large engine would accelerate very quickly, while a large ship with a small engine would accelerate very slowly.  Both ships have the potential to travel at any velocity.

[KlatuSatori]

I wouldn't say this conversation is entirely moot.  The devs have very clear ideas on some aspects, but I believe others are still work in progress and my impression is that they take on board ideas and considerations they like.

 

I personally see no problem with a warp drive being able to transport at ship at 70kc.  To me it is just semantics to say that a warp drive can make you go at 70kc getting you there in an hour and a stargate can make you go at 10Mc to get you there in a few seconds.  You can create the game mechanics and then make up the lore around it.

 

One idea is that you could have "gears" for FTL with each gear providing an order of magnitude more propulsion than the last.

 

Having said that, even in the case of travelling at ~100,000c, travelling for an hour through completely empty space would lose its appeal pretty quickly.  There needs to be something out there in interstellar space to break up these journeys.  If there are points of interest for mining operations in interstellar space that can be encountered relatively frequently, then the time it takes to FTL between solar systems is somewhat less important.  It could be 10 hours for a straight journey between two neighbouring solar systems that don't yet have jump gates set up, but if there are dozens, even hundreds of points of interest between them, spaced out at <20 minutes travel time or so, then it doesn't matter so much.  Points of interest could be rogue planets and moons, rogue asteroid belts of varying size, abandoned/ruined alien space stations / capital ships, or anything else you can think of.

 

Regarding sizes of engines and force applied - that is of course true in newtonian physics.  An Alcubierre Drive doesn't actually apply any propulsive force though.  It warps the space around your vessel, which rides the space like a wave (in my primitive understanding).  Regardless, it is probably a good idea to have both acceleration and velocity limits in a game.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree there probably needs to be three modes of travel - "normal", "warp", and "jump" - it is just the implementation that I think should be done a little differently than normal, and I think that "jump" should be limited, costly, disruptable, and entirely player-led.

 

I've looked around briefly and couldn't find anything from Nyz on this topic though I am certain there are snippets out there.

[vylqun]

From a scientific view i would ignore the "warp" kind of travel as it is highly unlikely to ever exist. The spin theory gave us a means of scientific possible FTL travel. Basically because gravity isn't bound to our dimension,it overlaps to the other dimensions (there's a theory that dark matter is exactly that, gravitational influence of stellar bodies from other dimensions), so if we know the exact gravitational map of a star we can identify it in every other dimension and thus chose a dimension with the shortest range to travel to our destination (actually the "slip stream" engine from the show andromeda was kinda like this, one of the few possible FTL concepts)

 

so as summary, ignore the warp, just use sub light and ftl which, as ingame mechanic, means jumping from solar system to solar system. one of the benefits of that is that every solar system can be its own shard reducing the requirements for the coding and server structure a bit.

[Ripper]

The Alcubierre drive is a possible FTL engine that "warps" space-time.

 

Its also been theorized that wormhole can be created and stabilized with exotic matter (not to be confused with antimatter). So creating a "gate" with exotic matter is also possible.

[KlatuSatori]

"Warp" is just a convenient word to describe a kind of FTL travel that is not akin to teleportation. You can call it whatever you like and be as specific or as vague as necessary in describing how it works for the purpose of creating a game. I'm sure resurrection nodes are unlikely to ever exist either but they will be a fundamental part of the game.

 

One of the foundations of the game is that it will be a continuous single shard universe and one of the very first devblogs was about this very concept.

[Ripper]

A single shard universe is very ambitious.

 

I'm not saying it cant be done. I have no idea how NQ intends to implement it. IF realistic distances were to be created, the most logical method of transportation between star systems is stargate technology.

 

If NQ created a wormhole cut scene, theres no reason to have a single shard infrastructure.

[norab7]

I'm just worried that travel around the universe is going to be like what elite had or space engineers jumpy jumpy mechanic.

 

I don't mind what it is, as long as it's fluid and doesn't break immersion.

 

Elites method to me felt backwards and difficult to grasp to people who didn't research it.

Space Engineers is too Jump and Wait, Jump and Wait and doesn't give a smooth feeling.

 

I don't mind spending that extra time cruising in the open space as long as it's seamless, fluid and immersive.

[Thasrion]

I kinda like the Space Engineers concept of Jumps Drives. Conventional thrusters have limits in speed depending on the DPUs attached to the system and/or power requirements. Jump drives can be for long distance travel obviously but are also limited by power requirements and recharge times as well as how many jump drives you have on your ship and compared to it's mass.  

[Cavadus]

I'd rather have light/warp speed drives than jump gates or mass effect relays. I'm sure the game will be that way otherwise exploration will be non-existent as we'd be using a pre-mapped gate/relay network.

[norab7]

I'd rather have light/warp speed drives than jump gates or mass effect relays. I'm sure the game will be that way otherwise exploration will be non-existent as we'd be using a pre-mapped gate/relay network.

 

They aren't pre-mapped, you have to build them and i assume map them yourself.. If you want to explore you will have to do the flying manually at first and maybe still as the game goes on if you can't access a stargate, you will have to get there using FTL/Jump drives.. 

 

I think there was something said about the odd one or two stargates being already build, but now thinking that might have been arksites..

[Cavadus]

Would still prefer real FTL travel, not instant jumps.

[norab7]

Would still prefer real FTL travel, not instant jumps.

 

Totally agree, Space Engineers has jump drives and i don't like the fact i can't just fly towards the planet and land... i have to jump...jump...jump... ect.. to get there... I want to fly to it and land on it then fly to the next place.... 

[Ripper]

Realistic distances in a solar system would require a FTL drive.

 

Realistic distances between star systems would necessitate jump drives or star gates.

 

Its not a question of either/or.

 

Its both.

[norab7]

Realistic distances in a solar system would require a FTL drive.

 

Realistic distances between star systems would necessitate jump drives or star gates.

 

Its not a question of either/or.

 

Its both.

 

'Realistic'...

 

Remember at the end of the day this is a game, distances and speeds are irrelevant to what the devs want to do. You can cheat movement in a game, you can't in reality..

[Cavadus]

Realistic distances between star systems would necessitate jump drives or star gates.

Since it's all completely fictional, no, nothing requires anything.

 

I can make up the fact that warp drives can move ships at thousands of times the speed of light and now I'm right.

 

Anyways, the point I'm making here is that all of this completely fabricated so no one can say anything is or isn't required.

 

I just prefer getting ships up to speed and having some travel time aboard them. Gates seem like a cop out. Plus they'll become huge points of PvP contention where jerks will camp and everyone else gets obliterated unless they concoct some reason to prevent PvP around them but then how do you destroy one?

 

Anyways, just give us really dope Alcubierre drives.

[Obikawa]

Anyways, just give us really dope Alcubierre drives.

 

I am writing about those right now.

[norab7]

I just prefer getting ships up to speed and having some travel time aboard them. Gates seem like a cop out. Plus they'll become huge points of PvP contention where jerks will camp and everyone else gets obliterated unless they concoct some reason to prevent PvP around them but then how do you destroy one?

 

There is little information about them, but they could be built inside a arkified territory. so preventing PvP, if the stargate was not protected i'd fear for the life of my ship... and probably not use it just incase, like you say, someones sitting camping it.

[KlatuSatori]

Since it's all completely fictional, no, nothing requires anything.

 

I can make up the fact that warp drives can move ships at thousands of times the speed of light and now I'm right.

 

This is what I've been trying to say this whole thread.

[KlatuSatori]

There is little information about them, but they could be built inside a arkified territory. so preventing PvP, if the stargate was not protected i'd fear for the life of my ship... and probably not use it just incase, like you say, someones sitting camping it.

 

The power to teleport to a distant location is so great that it needs to be very strongly tempered if included.  Invulnerable stargates should never exist.

 

Building a small stargate from one end of a solar system to another could be relatively easy.  Building one to a neighbouring system, very difficult - lots of materials, time, and energy required to build it.  The further you want to go the bigger and harder they should be to build, in a kind of exponential relationship.  But they should always be destructible.

 

Risk/reward is an important factor in a game like this that needs to be considered in every mechanic.  If you're running a trade route between two neighbouring systems, you can go by FTL and be virtually assured of safety, but have lower cred/hr profits, or you can take the stargate for increased cred/hr, but risk getting jumped by pirates.  Or you could have a friend watching the gate so you know whether it is safe, but then he needs a cut of the profit.  If you have indestructible, no-pvp stargates then it's a no-brainer.

[norab7]

The power to teleport to a distant location is so great that it needs to be very strongly tempered if included.  Invulnerable stargates should never exist.

 

Building a small stargate from one end of a solar system to another could be relatively easy.  Building one to a neighbouring system, very difficult - lots of materials, time, and energy required to build it.  The further you want to go the bigger and harder they should be to build, in a kind of exponential relationship.  But they should always be destructible.

 

Risk/reward is an important factor in a game like this that needs to be considered in every mechanic.  If you're running a trade route between two neighbouring systems, you can go by FTL and be virtually assured of safety, but have lower cred/hr profits, or you can take the stargate for increased cred/hr, but risk getting jumped by pirates.  Or you could have a friend watching the gate so you know whether it is safe, but then he needs a cut of the profit.  If you have indestructible, no-pvp stargates then it's a no-brainer.

 

True, I understand what you mean. 

 

But what would you say about a planet base Stargate event that happens on Alioth to connect Alioth to another 'found' arksite?

 

So both ends are PvE but are not controlled by any organisation, simply expanding the Arksite from Alioth to include the new world also... I think something will need to be done like this eventually because a year, 2 years after launch, how much of Alioth is going to be open for new people to claim and play in?

 

If it connects NPC Arksites together it would simply expand the area new players can play in.

 

Trade routes will always change, as that is the idea of the game to have emergent gameplay (or however it's spelt).. player decide everything.. and trade routes and the like will not be safe forever, regardless of who you are...