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In a previous topic, there was a brief moment where some of us discussed how the economy in Dual Universe will operate. I feel like this is a good topic to continue discussing, even now despite what little information we have. However, I hope that Nyz can shed some light on this. 

 

Before we begin, if you see anything missing from this topic, please let me know. I plan to update this thread with current economic facts, as well as discussion points. Thanks!

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

Topics of interest! If you have something you want to be discussed, let me know and I can update it here.

 

Business Ventures - With a game like DU, whose scope is truly massive in its goal to create a living, breathing sandbox universe, the possibilities for all sorts of professions are near endless. What sort of ideas do you have?

 

Central Trade Hub - While this topic may be a little pre-mature, I am hoping as we get more information in the future anything we discuss on this can begin to be fleshed out. Eve Online has a many trade hubs, but THE trade hub is known as Jita. Anything and everything can be found there. While DU will be a different game in its own right, should we as the first players look in to trying to create a centralized trade hub int he early stages of the game? By a collective effort from the community, we could easily create said market. Or, we could let things happen naturally. The latter will happen either way, and throughout different regions. What are your thoughts?

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

I am no economic nut, but it does excite me for whatever reason. The economy will be a huge part of this game, and I'd really like to get everyone's input on it, and start putting some ideas together so that come game day, we've got a plan and vision of what to expect. 

 

Right now that's all I have on my mind. I plan to keep this topic going, and I will update the thread as needed. 

 

Also, another jab at Nyz! Any insight you have on this topic would be appreciated. It will help guide the discussions somewhere relevant to what we can expect to see. 

 

DU ECONOMY FAQ:

 

? Auctions - Can be visibly seen locally (in whatever region the Market Unit is established.)

 

? Standard Currency - There will be a standard currency established for the economy. (Players will not be able to create their own currencies.)

 

Currently, there is no plan to enable players to create their own currency, for several reasons:

- Risk of imbalance: If there is something that needs to be stable for a sandbox game, this is the in-game economy. 

- Development priority: Many features are quite long to develop (even the basic ones). And as this type of game mechanics implies a complex game design behind it in order to work well, it would cost a lot of development time. And for now, it's far from being in priorities

- Fun to play: We are not entirely convinced that enabling players to create their own money would be fun on the long run, nor really very easy to understand and master for most of the players (look how the economy in real life is complexified just by that). While we don't want to go "mainstream" in the game design of Dual Universe, we don't want either to go for a game that will only appeal to a very small population of players. We also need numbers to create a MMORPG full of player-driven stories!  ;)

 

 

? Newbie Zone Market - The starting zone will have an initial market hub established to "jump start" the economy, and provide some basic means for the players via NPC vendors. 

 

The starting zone (the secure area around the Arkship) should have this role (as well as being a “Newbie Zone?? to learn the game mechanics):

To bootstrap the economy at the beginning, it will be necessary to have at least a few NPC vendors selling basic equipment.
And from this, the players should have all they need to develop the in-game economy

 

 

 

 

? Market Units - A buildable structure to establish a trading post.

 

"In Dual Universe, creating a market will require nothing more than setting up a Market Unit, a particular Element that you can craft and install in any construct of yours. The Market Unit requires an energy supply and a container to store the traded goods. It can be as small as a front door market in your little farm, where travelers can buy your local production, to an orbital station sized market where interstellar megaships are traded."

 

 

? Information Units - A build-able structure to view local buy/sell orders on the market.

 

"Importantly, you will access market information (the current list of buy/sell orders for any given good) from a distance, using Information Units to analyze prices on different markets, and compare. This mechanism will naturally establish competition between markets and tend to aggregate them based on geographical or specialization efficiency criteria. When you’ll buy a good on a market 1.000km away from where you stand, it will show up in a local inventory physically attached to that particular market container."

 

 

DU ECONOMY REFERENCE LINKS:

 

 

? DEVBLOG - From Barter To Market Economy

 

- Lego

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Hi Ellegos,

 

You can already find some answers one this devblog : https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/21-devblog-from-barter-to-market-economy/

For the remaining, I guess we need to wait for Nyzaltar answers.

 

I'm also interested about currency.

In one hand, I would be please to manage ourselves the economy, but, in the other, having a centralized banking system which handles transactions is aslo a good thing and remove a lot of useless hassle.

 

Regards,

Shadow

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story-wise all players will arrive with similar arkships, giving everyone the same knowledge imparted to them by the AI, so it wouldn't be surprising if there is a common concept of currency, whatever it might be. Best would be some kind of currency with actual use, so we wont have a strong inflation over time.

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Hi Ellegos,

 

You can already find some answers one this devblog : https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/21-devblog-from-barter-to-market-economy/

For the remaining, I guess we need to wait for Nyzaltar answers.

 

I'm also interested about currency.

In one hand, I would be please to manage ourselves the economy, but, in the other, having a centralized banking system which handles transactions is aslo a good thing and remove a lot of useless hassle.

 

Regards,

Shadow

 

Ah thanks for the link. I had thought I'd read over every devblog, but I guess I missed this one. Whoops!

 

The blog hypothetically mentions a standard currency, though I am unsure if it will apply to what we will actually have. The more and more I think about the start of this game, the more and more I see a lot of work ahead for the first players. We certainly have a lot of foundation to build, and the economy will be one hell of a beast to tackle. Though, naturally much of it will come to be just by influence from every other action. 

 

While the devblog did answer a few questions, it more or less covered the basics of any economy which anyone should grasp with a little common sense. The information on the market/information units and what not was a good bit of insight, but I need more before I or anyone else can really get some core concepts understood for this game. 

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I asked about whether or not players will be able to create their own currencies and the answer I got from Nyzaltar was no, and for good reasons.  Thread: https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/21-devblog-from-barter-to-market-economy/

 

That same devblog talks about market units which can be placed in any player made construct and just require energy and storage space for goods being traded.  

 

I think the intention is also to have the ASA have a few NPC markets which sell some basic stuff to help kickstart the process.

 

The system sounds really flexible.  So you can build a shop, or you can have a little market stall, or you might be a mobile caravan (except more sci-fi-ey), or you could be on a huge space ship, or a dedicated orbital space station with masses and masses of goods from all over the galaxy!

 

An implication I can see is the potential for destroying market units and stealing the goods inside.  I'm guessing they'll need an immunity timer once they are damaged a certain amount to give people a chance to get their stuff out, otherwise the economy would suffer greatly because the rewards for destroying market units would just be too great to pass up.  Imagine that orbital space station being blown up with all the goods on-board, just floating in space... salvagers flying in from wherever they can to get a piece of the pie...

 

As for business ventures, I wonder whether it will be more profitable to specialise in a particular area.  Say you build small spaceships near a reasonably populated area.  Rather than transporting your ships to a market, you decide you have enough clout to set up a market - to sell your ships, yes, but also to attract people who sell the materials you need to build your goods.

 

Probably the most profitable will be the generalist who manages a large market unit in the centre of a bustling city of a major organisation.  I wonder if the market unit owner gets to claim a percentage of all transactions.  The more transactions the richer you get.  Realistically the organisation itself will get be the owner of the market unit and most of the money will go in their coffers.

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I asked about whether or not players will be able to create their own currencies and the answer I got from Nyzaltar was no, and for good reasons.  Thread: https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/21-devblog-from-barter-to-market-economy/

 

That same devblog talks about market units which can be placed in any player made construct and just require energy and storage space for goods being traded.  

 

I think the intention is also to have the ASA have a few NPC markets which sell some basic stuff to help kickstart the process.

 

The system sounds really flexible.  So you can build a shop, or you can have a little market stall, or you might be a mobile caravan (except more sci-fi-ey), or you could be on a huge space ship, or a dedicated orbital space station with masses and masses of goods from all over the galaxy!

 

An implication I can see is the potential for destroying market units and stealing the goods inside.  I'm guessing they'll need an immunity timer once they are damaged a certain amount to give people a chance to get their stuff out, otherwise the economy would suffer greatly because the rewards for destroying market units would just be too great to pass up.  Imagine that orbital space station being blown up with all the goods on-board, just floating in space... salvagers flying in from wherever they can to get a piece of the pie...

 

As for business ventures, I wonder whether it will be more profitable to specialise in a particular area.  Say you build small spaceships near a reasonably populated area.  Rather than transporting your ships to a market, you decide you have enough clout to set up a market - to sell your ships, yes, but also to attract people who sell the materials you need to build your goods.

 

Probably the most profitable will be the generalist who manages a large market unit in the centre of a bustling city of a major organisation.  I wonder if the market unit owner gets to claim a percentage of all transactions.  The more transactions the richer you get.  Realistically the organisation itself will get be the owner of the market unit and most of the money will go in their coffers.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the currency question! I updated the thread to reflect that, as well as some more information. Thatw as a question begging to be answered in my head. 

 

I can really see players being creative in their business'. Ship manufacturers I feel will have a very good market, not to mention all of that jobs that will create. Those resources have to be gathered somehow!

 

I'm hoping to see some creativity here like I did in Star Wars Galaxies before it went to crap. Players became very creative in their professions and how they made a living in the universe. Bounty Hunters, Doctors, even Dancers!

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The one universal currency is something I'd keep an eye on. It will be a never ending and inflating number.

 

There may be a way to make a currency of sorts. Since we know that we can apply tags to containers already. By structuring the tags in a certain way so that people other than the issuing party cannot change the tags, you essentially have a way to make objects with a date they were made and their initial value.

 

people might be able to steal the container, but they would never be able to change the tags unless they intend to implement such a thing. If its impossible to change the tags then the containers value will always remain. It might not be possible to use them directly as currency, as in say someone makes a vendor droid that gives you ammo in exchange for 'credits', it obviously wouldn't know what a container is or its value without some kind of tag detection system or some kind of script.

 

Who knows what kind of controls people will have over market units, I wonder if they will be able to detect the tags applied to units, maybe 2 items both use the model for Container A, but have different tags. Are those different commodities and able to have different buy / sell prices?

 

I still see the possibility existing to not use the default currency if that was something people were interested in, albeit more difficult since private currency may not be truly supported as you pointed out.

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Ah really now...currency exchanges and stuff? We would need market analysts to determine what is a fair trade in each place a certain type of currency is used, and this would need to constantly be done, which is a lot of useless hassle indeed.

 

Universal currency sounds like the way to go.

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Central Trade Hub - While this topic may be a little pre-mature, I am hoping as we get more information in the future anything we discuss on this can begin to be fleshed out. Eve Online has a many trade hubs, but THE trade hub is known as Jita. Anything and everything can be found there. While DU will be a different game in its own right, should we as the first players look in to trying to create a centralized trade hub int he early stages of the game? By a collective effort from the community, we could easily create said market. Or, we could let things happen naturally. The latter will happen either way, and throughout different regions. What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

It will be really interesting to see how this goes down.  It makes sense to have a centralised trading hub where a significant percentage of the entire game's trading takes place.  It is mainly a convenience issue, like supermarkets.

 

In Eve, Jita is so damn huge because it is a high sec system where piracy is not always profitable and has consequences, because goods in stations are perfectly safe, and because it is easily accessible.

 

In DU, things will be a little different and perhaps a little more complicated.  A central trade hub will have to be in the/an ASA or in an arkified territory (if they happen), in order to keep goods safe.  However, Jita is convenient for most because it's reachable from anywhere on the map in less than an hour, but it sounds like DU will be a lot bigger than Eve.  Once players start living on different planets, it seems unlikely that that same trading hub on planet A will still be the convenient place to go to do your shopping.  So then perhaps you'll have big hubs on a per planet basis, with the size of the hub related to how many people actually live on the planet.

 

And then there is off-worlders.  People who live in space and for whom travelling down to a planet is an inconvenience or a once every now and then affair.  These players will prefer trading hubs that are IN SPACE.  We don't know if there will be any way to make space stations perfectly safe, yet space stations will undoubtedly be the most convenient place to have a trading hub for many players once the game reaches a certain stage in its evolution.

 

There will obviously still be a "largest trading hub in the game", but I think it will contain a much smaller percentage of the game's total trade volume than Jita does in Eve.  And I think it will be far more interesting to have hubs of different kinds that meet different people's needs and in different areas of the galaxy with comparable volumes being traded.

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What is the reason for money? I plan on taking everything I need. 


 

Mugghhaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

 

Seriously though, I was hoping for a system that was semi universal. Like we use the same currency, but the "auction houses" are not linked. Exploration would be encouraged if you learned the best X was made by a player on planet Y.
 

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Its an interesting concept with regards to auction houses that are not linked. I have played both Eve online and also Elite dangerous. The good thing about elite is the economy and having to find the best prices within the universe at a space station you have not seen or found. As you say Kiklix, it keeps exploration open so you can get the best price for things or find where they are.

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Seriously though, I was hoping for a system that was semi universal. Like we use the same currency, but the "auction houses" are not linked. Exploration would be encouraged if you learned the best X was made by a player on planet Y.

 

 

That's what I'm hoping for as well and it seems that something like that is what is planned.  OP quotes the devblog on "Information Units" which are used to see what prices are in different markets from a distance.  I would like to see the range of Information Units to be quite limited, but really we don't know anything about how they work yet.

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That's what I'm hoping for as well and it seems that something like that is what is planned.  OP quotes the devblog on "Information Units" which are used to see what prices are in different markets from a distance.  I would like to see the range of Information Units to be quite limited, but really we don't know anything about how they work yet.

 

I assume these Information Units will be restricted to information only accessible via the same region it is installed in. Region though could be restricted to a handful of systems, or large swathes of space. We simply don't know yet.

 

However, while market units are restricted to a region they are placed in, I would actually like to be able to go to an information unit and look up any neighboring regions' markets. I see no reason why that wouldn't be an option. I am also expecting these market/information units to be upgrade-able pieces of hardware. 

 

For example, a level one Market Unit is a basic trading post, limited to whatever is in stock inside of it (Town, Space station) and has a limit on how many buy/sell orders it can manage. Each subsequent upgrade would expand its capacity as well as maybe even reaching out to handle multiple cities, stations etc. That's not to say you can just buy anything from this one particular market unit and it is instantly delivered, but more or less a means to remotely access different market hubs within a given solar system/region. From there, you would obviously need to go to the point of origin for said cargo, and pick it up there.

 

Honestly, and I may be biased here, but Eve Online's economy is the most sophisticated one I have seen in any game. Period. It is the closest I have seen to any artificially made economy system that has as much freedom and autonomy that it does. Judging from what I have gathered from the NQ team and there current vision of the economy for Dual, and their quite obvious influence from Eve Online, I hope to see them do the same thing if not even better. 

 

They don't need to reinvent the wheel here, and there is nothing wrong in taking ideas from different projects. 

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Central Trade Hub - While this topic may be a little pre-mature, I am hoping as we get more information in the future anything we discuss on this can begin to be fleshed out. Eve Online has a many trade hubs, but THE trade hub is known as Jita. Anything and everything can be found there. While DU will be a different game in its own right, should we as the first players look in to trying to create a centralized trade hub int he early stages of the game? By a collective effort from the community, we could easily create said market. Or, we could let things happen naturally. The latter will happen either way, and throughout different regions. What are your thoughts?

 

I think that it should definitely be up to us to create the trappings of a galactic civilization.

 

In time, hopefully we can turn the entire starter planet into a megalopolis, with many locations for new players to visit. And perhaps, if that happens, the NQ team can start every player off with a small loan of perhaps a million credits (or whatever the currency will be) that they can use to purchase their first ship and get a jump start into the galaxy.

 

If new players can get an advantage like that, it may serve to increase the player base, as new players won't spawn in and struggle to simply complete a small engine to power a little sled. We can boost their confidence by granting them the resources and capability to jump into things and start exploring and selling map information, mining resources and transporting them to the nearest trade hub, or hunting down pirate players and get their first taste of the combat.

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I think that it should definitely be up to us to create the trappings of a galactic civilization.

 

In time, hopefully we can turn the entire starter planet into a megalopolis, with many locations for new players to visit. And perhaps, if that happens, the NQ team can start every player off with a small loan of perhaps a million credits (or whatever the currency will be) that they can use to purchase their first ship and get a jump start into the galaxy.

 

If new players can get an advantage like that, it may serve to increase the player base, as new players won't spawn in and struggle to simply complete a small engine to power a little sled. We can boost their confidence by granting them the resources and capability to jump into things and start exploring and selling map information, mining resources and transporting them to the nearest trade hub, or hunting down pirate players and get their first taste of the combat.

 

I hope DU won't be as harsh of a world as that. Perhaps, and I know how NQ wants to steer away from this, but perhaps a beginning starter quest to build your own ship would be helpful in getting new players acquainted with the game and starting them off with their own, custom, self-built ship as well. It would be a good way to kick players off with a sense of achievement and perhaps retain and expand the player base even more.

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I hope DU won't be as harsh of a world as that. Perhaps, and I know how NQ wants to steer away from this, but perhaps a beginning starter quest to build your own ship would be helpful in getting new players acquainted with the game and starting them off with their own, custom, self-built ship as well. It would be a good way to kick players off with a sense of achievement and perhaps retain and expand the player base even more.

I think it'll be quite a while before we're ready to make any ships at the start of DU.

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Based on what?

 

 

Wasn't it said somewhere everything will need to be crafted and learned?

That the game would evolve over time based on the players?

 

Well I don't believe we'll have a free pass into space is all.

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Wasn't it said somewhere everything will need to be crafted and learned?

That the game would evolve over time based on the players?

 

Well I don't believe we'll have a free pass into space is all.

 

Not disagreeing or agreeing with you, but if you have anything you can reference I'd appreciate it. 

 

We'll have to craft everything yes, but it won't be as complicated as some might imagine to achieve space flight. I hope so at least. I'm simple a man, and like simple things. 

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Not disagreeing or agreeing with you, but if you have anything you can reference I'd appreciate it. 

 

We'll have to craft everything yes, but it won't be as complicated as some might imagine to achieve space flight. I hope so at least. I'm simple a man, and like simple things. 

I'll see if I can find anything.

 

I hope you're right about this. I'd love for it to be simple.

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That was in the fifth part of the short stories from the NQ team. The main character had wandered upon a sort of stonehenge thing and learned a blueprint for an engine or something.

 

Here's the story- http://devblog.dualthegame.com/2015/08/28/dual-universe-part-5/

 

If I remember rightly, that's what was going on, and where Silv got his information.

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That was in the fifth part of the short stories from the NQ team. The main character had wandered upon a sort of stonehenge thing and learned a blueprint for an engine or something.

 

Here's the story- http://devblog.dualthegame.com/2015/08/28/dual-universe-part-5/

 

If I remember rightly, that's what was going on, and where Silv got his information.

 

Thanks!

 

I think we can all agree early game will be a little shaky since space flight wont be common among players. Though, it would be neat if their was a main plot which new players would go through as their tutorial and building their own starship then cutting them lose afterwards. 

 

I also hope Alioth will have an NPC faction, with an orbiting space station but that's just me. :P I just want to see a welcoming, and easy to adjust to starting zone/planet.

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Hi Ellegos.

This is a very topic.

We are currently discussing it internally.

You can expect some answers next week ;)

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

 

Awesome! Can't wait to see what you have for all of us!

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Hi everyone!
Here are some information.
 
We hope this give you a better idea about how we see the beginning of the in-game Economy :)
 
 
 
 
Will there be only one currency in the game? 
Will players be able to create spaceship to explore space and other planets during Alpha?
 
Some clarifications/confirmations to begin the discussion:
- Yes, there will be only one currency in Dual Universe (basically, we agree with Astrophil post saying that emergent currencies might be quite a hassle to manage in practice, especially for players who are not interested in economy). 
- Yes, there will be space flight even in the Alpha, because this is something we need to test very thoroughly right from the beginning. Keep in mind Alpha phase purpose is to test extensively the first and most sensitive bricks of gameplay. If all goes well, you will have a complete solar system to test for the Alpha. However, it might be significantly slower to really be able to build a spaceship once the game reaches official release. We believe that it should be a real ?wow? moment, a crowning achievement, for a player to first take off a planet and finally see it fill the whole screen in all its majesty! At least for the early players who will join the game and cannot simply step in an already existing ship.
 
 
 
 
Business Ventures - With a game like DU, whose scope is truly massive in its goal to create a living, breathing sandbox universe, the possibilities for all sorts of professions are near endless. What sort of ideas do you have?
 
We probably haven't visualized all possibilities for professions in Dual Universe yet, as the gameplay will be emergent, as in any proper sandbox game. However, there are already some planned activities that can lead to professions: 
 
- Resource discovery (exploring planets and selling coordinates where materials are located)
- Resource gathering (collecting raw materials)
- Crafting (refining raw materials and making Gear, Elements or Element Parts)
- Building (designing constructs, be it spaceships, cities, voxel sculptures or ornaments)
- Industrial Production (producing specific constructs in large quantity)
- Engineering (creating new LUA scripts for ships, drones, automatic defence, etc)
- Logistics (transporting goods, be it Gear, Elements or Constructs, from a point A to a point B )
- Trading resulting from Logistics (buying low at A to sell high at B, because of scarcity at B )
- Archeology (exploring alien ruins, hunting alien artifacts)
- Research (discovering new alloys from combining several raw materials, discovering new technologies from alien artifacts)
- Pirating: this could happen by force or by stealth and hacking
- Administrator: assuming managing functions or operational/administrative functions in large organizations
 
We have noticed also player expectations related to entertainment activities:
Opening a pub ingame, being able to dance or play music instruments, having jukebox, etc.
This is not in the roadmap for the Alpha (and only a few of all the professions listed above will be implemented for the Alpha). But we'll see what we can include in the game for the beta and then the official release.
 
 
 
 
Central Trade Hub - While this topic may be a little premature, I am hoping as we get more information in the future anything we discuss on this can begin to be fleshed out. Eve Online has a many trade hubs, but THE trade hub is known as Jita. Anything and everything can be found there. While DU will be a different game in its own right, should we as the first players look into trying to create a centralized trade hub in the early stages of the game? By a collective effort from the community, we could easily create said market. Or, we could let things happen naturally. The latter will happen either way, and throughout different regions. What are your thoughts?
 
There are two possibilities here (it hasn?t been decided yet which one will be deployed):
 
  1. There could be an ?arkship market hub? right from the beginning, to help players start the economy in the first days or even months after the game official release. This wouldn?t prevent players to create and deploy their own market hubs in remote places once they have grasped all the game mechanisms related to it. NPCs will create market orders buy and sell orders that will act as money faucets and money sinks)
     
  2. It could be up to the players to install the first Market Units wherever they choose, which triggers the event to attract some NPCs who will create market orders (the exact mechanism that will determine the amount of NPCs involved and their behavior according to your location, will be described in a future devblog)
 
This should be the main way to bootstrap the economy. Once people will have enough in-game money, they will be able to trade easily between them, through Market and Information Units, without the need of NPCs.
 
 
 
 
More information about Market Units & Information Units:
 
- About Market Units: a player or organization that owns a Market Unit can decide to setup a fee for any transaction occurring through it, which might obviously become a very profitable business. Balancing the cost of maintaining a Market Unit (energy, defence, etc) against the risk of creating a competitor market with lower fees will be an interesting part of the gameplay that we are still working on.
 
- About Information Units: yes, they will have a limited set of ranges. However, it will be possible to chain them, and even to rent the access to a set of linked Information Units, opening opportunities to sell access to large networks of information. Yes, a bit like Internet!
 
 
Best Regards,
Nyzaltar.

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