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Quick Question?


Daddio

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Hello Folks,

I have a few questions I would like to ask.

First let me explain my background.

I was a map maker and mission scripter in MechWarrior4, I love space and space sims.  Currently player Elite Dangerous, ED Horizons, Star Citizens since launch in early backing . I played LANDMARK since launch as a trailblazer and have built many SCIFI themed builds.

 

How many players can your voxel based system handle? I know the player to player combat in LANDMARK PVP really made the game laggy and unplayable for a lot of folks.

 

How will voxel based ships be handled with atmospheres (inside and outside) and ship damage?

 

Will the controls be hands on like in Elite Dangerous or more control based like in EVE?

 

How will your playable areas be handled? One huge universe? Shared Shards? Multiple Instances of the same areas? Shared phases or sectors?

 

How easy will it be for me and my friends to group and play together?  Do we need to fly/drive to each other? is there a teleport or warp system?

 

If you voxels are bigger than LANDMARKS how will the little details be handled? 

 

Thanks for reading and looking forward to seeing this game in action.

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Hi Daddio, this snippet might help answer your questions about playable areas/one huge universe etc. It's from the "A Single-Shard Continuous Universe: One World, No Boundaries" blog post http://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/09/26/a-single-shard-continuous-universe-one-world-no-boundaries/

 

 

The approach we have developed is based on the idea of subdividing zones according to their population density, in a recursive way. If only 5 people are roaming the surface of a remote lonely planet, it will most likely be handled by one single server. Come thousands of visitors spread on the surface and the initial area will automatically divide itself. Player clients are dynamically reallocated to the new servers in charge of their area. This process can repeat itself up to areas as small as 8 meters large. The interaction between different areas is handled with a complex cluster-wide synchronization mechanism, and an actor-based model that we might talk about in another post.

 

The other crucial part of this algorithm is that we have designed a method that is efficient to guarantee that the further a player is from another one, the less frequent the updates of position will be between them. When two players are close to each other, they will be updated very frequently and see each other with a great level of fluidity. However, when players are far away, there will be some delay in movement (because interpolation needs several updates to proceed), but they will still see each other in a visually convincing way.

 

The prototype is working, but we need to make much more testing of the current implementation to have hard results to show in terms of the max number of concurrent players. So far, it?s looking pretty good, and should allow us to provide a continuous, single-shard universe, where you are totally free to move around without instances or zone limits. If you have a few hundreds of thousands of friends, don?t hesitate to invite them to join our future beta testing! ;)

 

JC Baillie,
Project Lead

 

 

On the voxel tools, Nyzaltar said there's going to be update on voxel tool topics soon, which might offer us some insight into the little details, which is something I've pondered on.

 

 

 

There will be soon an update on several topics regarding the voxel tools.

It will cover: 
- The voxel tools operational so far (and those still under development).
- The possibility to have a Voxel Editor: Pros & Cons.
- Voxel Elements presentation: an alternative to Voxel Boards.
- Our stance on "Voxelmancy" (microvoxels, antivoxels and such).
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How will your playable areas be handled? One huge universe? Shared Shards? Multiple Instances of the same areas? Shared phases or sectors?

 

 

 

Dual will operate on a single shard. Think of Eve Online. 

 

One big universe.

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The one big game world is something that Im very pleased about,

My mind is really focused on the RDMS stuff right now, but I feel like somewhere they said something about how ship / vehichle controls might behave.

I hope though they come up with something thats less point and click than eve is all, one of my biggest gripes about eve.

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I feel like a team as ambitious as Novaquark and a game as advanced as DU would doubtlessly create a beautiful and intuitive, not to mention very hands-on, flying system. Unfortunately, this also probably means that along with a Rift, a Virtuix Omni, surround speakers, and a bunch of geeky DU stuff, I'll probably also have to go find a better HOTAS as well. I really, really dislike this game's uncanny ability to cause personal bankrupticies.

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I feel like a team as ambitious as Novaquark and a game as advanced as DU would doubtlessly create a beautiful and intuitive, not to mention very hands-on, flying system. Unfortunately, this also probably means that along with a Rift, a Virtuix Omni, surround speakers, and a bunch of geeky DU stuff, I'll probably also have to go find a better HOTAS as well. I really, really dislike this game's uncanny ability to cause personal bankrupticies.

 

 

That would be one heck of an immersive experience. Please let me know how it is, ill be in my shop making spaceships all day. :D

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I'll probably also have to go find a better HOTAS as well. 

 

So I got Elite Dangerous recently and at first i was considering buying a HOTUS setup, but it turned out i actually really like the flight controls with a mouse and keyboard.  Luckily someone told me to try switching Yaw to the X axis on my mouse, Roll to the A and D keys and throttle to the mouse wheel and that helped a lot.

 

I never played EVE, so i'm not sure how the controls work differently, but the flight controls in Elite Dangerous seem great to me so i hope we end up with something similar in DU.

 

I realized that i have more then 30 years of experience with a mouse and keyboard and none at all flying an actual jet or using a HOTUS so i should probably just stick with the mouse and keyboard.

 

Learning to orient yourself in 3d space is rough,  i was spinning around drunkenly and crashing into stuff for hours in the tutorial before i got the hang of it. 

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So I got Elite Dangerous recently and at first i was considering buying a HOTUS setup, but it turned out i actually really like the flight controls with a mouse and keyboard.  Luckily someone told me to try switching Yaw to the X axis on my mouse, Roll to the A and D keys and throttle to the mouse wheel and that helped a lot.

 

I never played EVE, so i'm not sure how the controls work differently, but the flight controls in Elite Dangerous seem great to me so i hope we end up with something similar in DU.

 

I realized that i have more then 30 years of experience with a mouse and keyboard and none at all flying an actual jet or using a HOTUS so i should probably just stick with the mouse and keyboard.

 

Learning to orient yourself in 3d space is rough,  i was spinning around drunkenly and crashing into stuff for hours in the tutorial before i got the hang of it. 

 

 

I learned how to fly in Battlefield 1942 Desert Combat mod with a mouse and keyboard. The guys all told me it was impossible to fly a helicopter (Iraqi Hind) with keyboard and mouse. After many months and countless crashes I eventually got the hang of it. I went from the worst helicopter pilot in our group of about 50 people to the best. I had people lining up to fly with me. I used to get the Hind up to a reasonable height, get it upside down and jump out and free fall with it. Then jump back in, correct it and then fly it going reverse skating the ground. None of that would have been possible with a HOTUS. I simply had too much fast sensitive control with the mouse. Sometimes I miss that game.

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Hello,

 

I never played EVE, so i'm not sure how the controls work differently, but the flight controls in Elite Dangerous seem great to me so i hope we end up with something similar in DU.

In EvE, you don't control your ship directly: you give orders like "orbit this ship at 10km" or "align this celestial" or "go in this direction", then, the crew manage to trun, accelerate or decelerate, and so on.

 

Regards,

Shadow

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Hello,

 

In EvE, you don't control your ship directly: you give orders like "orbit this ship at 10km" or "align this celestial" or "go in this direction", then, the crew manage to trun, accelerate or decelerate, and so on.

 

Regards,

Shadow

 

This.

 

Eve can sometimes be referred to as a "Submarine Simulator". If that helps put things in to context. 

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Hi Daddio!

 

Sorry for the delayed answer.

I see other members have already answer most of the questions, so I will keep my answers short on these (unless you need further details).How many

 


players can your voxel based system handle?


 

In theory... there is no limit. How this could be possible?

Unlike many MMOs, the game world is not on a single physical server.

Unlike other MMOs, the game world is not segmented in parts each hosted on a single physical server.

We're fully taking advantage of the cloud technology, dynamically assigning servers proportionnally to the number of players gathered in one place at the same time. This is one of the reasons why we won't go "Free2Play". But there will be a more detailed explanation in a Devblog post, right after the one on the Voxel Tools.

Server side, we have already tested hundreds of players gathered at the same place with bots simulating players connecting to the server and wandering around (with minimalistic graphics activated, but that's just the start). The encouraging fact is, with our server technology, the workload is growing linearly (instead of exponentially) with the number of players increasing. And that's the first crucial step on the path for unlimited number of players interacting with each other in one place, at the same time :D

 


How will voxel based ships be handled with atmospheres (inside and outside) and ship damage?


 

This is still a part being designed. We can't tell you yet something relevant on this topic. 

But we will keep informed the community as soon as it will be clearly defined.

 


Will the controls be hands on like in Elite Dangerous or more control based like in EVE?


 

To pilot a flying construct, the gameplay will be nearer to Elite Dangerous than EvE Online. 

This won't be as developed as in Elite, because we're building a MMORPG and being a Massively Multiplayer Space Sim isn't our core gameplay even if it's an important component. It won't be "point & click" either. However you will have the locking target mechanics in order to shoot at other constructs or players.

 


How will your playable areas be handled? One huge universe? Shared Shards? Multiple Instances of the same areas? Shared phases or sectors?


 

One single-shard Universe. 

No multiple instances of the same area, thanks to our server technology.

However, We're not sure what you mean by "shared phases or sectors". Could you explain a bit more this point?

 


How easy will it be for me and my friends to group and play together?  Do we need to fly/drive to each other? is there a teleport or warp system?


 

Along with resurrection nodes, there will be teleportation nodes. But building this kind of thing won't be easy, it will cost a lot in terms of energy required, and will be stricly limited: expect to arrive at the destination... naked (Sarah Connor? B)). No gear, constructs or resources will be transfered by this mean. Think of it like some jumping clone technology in another game. 

 


If you voxels are bigger than LANDMARKS how will the little details be handled? 


 

As a matter of fact, we will be mathematically more limited in terms of possible little details.

But we are currently working to enable player to do micro voxel stuff.  So you should be able to make little details, not as little as in Landmark, but we hope this will be satisfactory enough for builders. Alpha team testers will tell us, as they are already several experienced builders among them ;)

We will give you more info on that topic in the near future.

 

I hope this will answer to your questions (at least for those we can already answer)!

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

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This is one of the reasons why we won't go "Free2Play". 

 

 

well, i sure hop u don't miscalculate there, due to good reasons every mmorpg, which tried to be p2p, failed the last 4 or 5 years, even big franchise ones.

Anyways, my money is in ur pockets as long as the game can deliver :P

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well, i sure hop u don't miscalculate there, due to good reasons every mmorpg, which tried to be p2p, failed the last 4 or 5 years, even big franchise ones.

Anyways, my money is in ur pockets as long as the game can deliver :P

 

Well, we have of course considered this fact.

But the real questions are:

- Is the subscription model really on a decline that can't be avoided?

- What are the exact reasons why the model is declining?

- Is it just due to some changes in consumer habits as most of the big publishers claim?

- If there was other reasons, who would be less acceptable to the players, would the big publishers will tell them with transparency?

 

Don't get us wrong here. The idea is not to blame the big publishers.

But our stand on the situation is what is regularly said is biased, for economic reasons.

The more a game has a big budget, the more the investors risk a large sum of money, the more they want to secure Return On Investment.

There is no evil there, it's just life. And limiting the risks conducts inevitably to... copy something that have already worked well, hoping the success will be repeated.

If there are interrogations about why there isn't real innovation in the last decade on MMOs, from our point view, this is mainly because of this. And generally, indeed, players seems less and less motivated to pay a subscription for a game being a copy of another they played in the past.

 

We might be wrong, but as time pass, we are more and more confident that subscription model is the way to go for our game, for many reasons that will be explained in DevBlog post dedicated to the monetization model. 

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

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well, its not like dual universe would have many other ways to make money anyways, cosmetics mostly work only for games with players who look for fast satisfaction like lol, cs etc. and certainly not for voxel games and any kind of ingameshop that actually influences the gameplay is bound to fail too.

 

The only other way for dual universe would probably be a real cash market with transaction fees, whichs drawback is annoying legal stuff and a high incentive to botting and hacking :/

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Subscription model works for me. I have always liked subscription models simply because the player more often than not has to make a conscious decision to play the game or not...or risk throwing away money. I think to some degree this helps bring in players who are invested in the game and react accordingly, this is not always the case obviously. 

 

I feel wows model is perfect. You get full reign of the content for a monthly sub, store items are pure superficial. Guild wars 2 turned me off because it seemed like in order to craft I had to spend real money. Farming in that game was not fun at all. It caused me to stop playing. SWTOR was fun when it was sub, but now that its free to play and heavy market items it just feels confusing and feels like its dipping a bit too deep into the pockets. I have tried free to play games, they rarely hold my interest past a day or two. 
 

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The main reason games go F2P is simply due to there not being enough income from subscription numbers. Many people would be shocked to find how much more revenue one can generate from opening a cash shop. A good majority of players out there will throw their entire paychecks at their screen buying RNG boxes in the hopes of getting that one piece of cosmetic gear to make them feel like a celebrity in whatever it is they are playing.

 

But, it isn't a steady source of income. Subscription model is more reliable, as well as helps provide more statistical data for other purposes (IE: Player numbers, activity etc.) where as a F2P is merely an indicator of what the next big pair of shoes the player base wants. 

 

If it appears like I am casting a bad light on F2P, I am not. It has it's uses, and even keeps some games from hitting rock bottom. SWTOR comes to mind.

 

I would much prefer a subscription model, because honestly, it puts the pressure off of my wallet. I'm free to admit I'll throw a few wads of cash at my computer screen to from point A to B quicker. But that's just me. 

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I agree Ellegos. I never had an issue paying wow 15 bucks a month for 10 years. Never bothered me. Did not have an issue paying SWTOR 15 when the game launched (end game and bad optimization killed SWTOR for me). I liked GW2 B2P model, but when I discovered I could not stop throwing money at the screen to buy currency, I stopped playing. The short term grab of cash shops did not equal the long term benefit of a sub. Had I been able to budget my money and get full access to content at 15 a month, I would have kept playing.

 

I can see where cash shops have their merit, but like I said I think it should be superficial like in wow. Whenever I have to buy inside the cash shop to play the game at the rate I want to experience content, its a huge turn off and I eventually stop playing.

 

I'd still play wow now if I was happy with development. 

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I had a very long response about 3 paragraphs on why I think F2P is the bane of the MMO world.
I'm glad the team is responsible, you wont regret a Subscription model.

F2P's are the same as casinos, lure people in and try to trick them into feeling good while they are losing with flashing lights and special noise patterns, there is neither a reward or any achievement.
I feel about the same after playing a F2P or going to the casino and losing money. Baffles me why people would rather throw money at lucky drop boxes instead of playing the game; I guess this is true of gaming and physical life.

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I had a very long response about 3 paragraphs on why I think F2P is the bane of the MMO world.

I'm glad the team is responsible, you wont regret a Subscription model.

 

F2P's are the same as casinos, lure people in and try to trick them into feeling good while they are losing with flashing lights and special noise patterns, there is neither a reward or any achievement.

I feel about the same after playing a F2P or going to the casino and losing money. Baffles me why people would rather throw money at lucky drop boxes instead of playing the game; I guess this is true of gaming and physical life.

 

Games are still a business. If your business doesn't make money, you have to change something or scrap it. Changing something typically comes before pulling the plug, and F2P is often times the answer. Your opinion on whether it is the bane of MMOs or not matters little to people trying to make a profit. Which frankly, F2P model does in fact make money, and often times more than a subscription would. It also proves there is a vast majority of gamer's that do not mind it obviously if they are throwing money at it.

 

I don't disagree with you on your taste, but it shouldn't be just written off as some cancer that doesn't belong. There is a purpose to it, and no matter how ugly it is, if it works it works. If Dual Universe can make more money from running a F2P model, then by all means, go for it. That is their prerogative, and whether or not making a profit matters to them or not. Just do it right the first time is all that I ask.

 

Note, I am still pro subscription model.

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Yes. Very true points. Paying a sub every month for the full, unthrottled game experience is far more preferable to throwing money at the screen for premium overpriced cash shop items or (God forbid) original release "premium" content. Pay to win essentially. I don't mind at all paying monthly for quality services, even if they do eat up such a very large portion of my time (Netflix and Spotify oops). It's gotta be enjoyable and worth it though.

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Lotro online was my favourite mmo for a good while when it was subscription based. I stopped playing and then tried to go back when it went F2P. I felt like the game had had its heart pulled out. Everything was gated off by pay walls, or so it seemed. I never went back.

 

I don't mind the B2P approach which GW2 has, but even then there is much emphasis on drawing you to cash shop goodies. Since I love new things, especially outfits and cosmetics, I was drawn in a lot.

 

I will happily pay a monthly sub for DU. It seems like a solid move. Those serious will continue to pay. Whereas games like GW2 (which I do love but got lost amongst all the story event updates) don't promote real gamer commitment to the game because you can literally come and go. It works for that game though.

 

I'm happy with NQ's decision.

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Some reaction in my opinion:

 

To pilot a flying construct, the gameplay will be nearer to Elite Dangerous than EvE Online.
This won't be as developed as in Elite, because we're building a MMORPG and being a Massively Multiplayer Space Sim isn't our core gameplay even if it's an important component. It won't be "point & click" either. However you will have the locking target mechanics in order to shoot at other constructs or players.

 

Actually, I guess it'll be really similar to Space engineers controls ?

 

Subscription model works for me. I have always liked subscription models simply because the player more often than not has to make a conscious decision to play the game or not...or risk throwing away money. I think to some degree this helps bring in players who are invested in the game and react accordingly, this is not always the case obviously.

 

+1. Also, it helps to reduce multi-accounts players, which is often a broken mechanism.

 

Playing a subscription based game is safer for me (and my purse) that's for sure.

 

I agree too: I prefer to know that I'll get full contents for a fixed subscription fee than dealing with cash shop details and, sometimes, unfair advantages for those who cash out enormous $$ amounts.

 

Games are still a business. If your business doesn't make money, you have to change something or scrap it. Changing something typically comes before pulling the plug, and F2P is often times the answer.

 

Sometimes, it's just because the game is a copy of another one with no real gameplay innovation. That's what kill MMO today: there is nothing new.

 

Free to Play and subscriptions both have their downsides for players. I think F2P has a lot more and penalize the game on the long term, that's why I don't like the model.

Some editors rush for F2P as the ideal answer to all and any problems. It's not. But it isn't bad by nature. For example, LoL model is quite nice.

 

Regards,

Shadow

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  • 1 month later...

As the topic went too much about F2P vs P2P models I would like to share my 50 cents too (just thoughts and ideas on the fly).

 

1. P2P model some strengths (not a whole list for sure and only from my point of view)

  - Feels more just - you know how much everyone pays and you know that no one gets any advantage by just paying more than you;

  - Gives stable income to game dev company so they can rely on this income more steadily from the very beginning;

  - Most of the players are loyal and ready to promote the game to others - after all they pay for t and they most probably like it;

  - No "unnecessary server load" of "just checking" players that will be only an expense (or will they?);

  - for sure it has other strengths but I just will not try to find them right now ;)

 

2. But I see also one big problem in P2P model which is very relevant especially for DU:

  - Less players are open to join the game if they are not introduced to it by friends or a marketing campaign - this means that the game population will grow slower than if the game is F2P and this could be a problem with the concept of a "Huge game universe." This concept is interesting only if you can meet other players in this huge universe. I hope the dev team plans to populate the universe gradually and make the discovery of new planets and other areas not an easy task so they are not explored before there is enough players to make them populated. Really, I think it is a great risk for an MMO to not have enough players' base for it to feels like an MMO when you join it. To deal with this problem  and I see only two possible solution (you can see more) - have many players in a big game space or have fewer players but in a smaller game space. And one of the Key Selling Point of the game is the vastness of the game universe so this problem  - having smaller player base - should be addressed.

 

So maybe a hybrid model is an option. I believe I saw somewhere in the site that there will be an option to play the game by paying with in-game currency but only later in the game. Not bad idea at all but it feels more like a reward for the dedicated players and I'm not sure if it will lead to good financial results. Your most dedicated players are your most devoted too so they are probably quite willing to pay for the game on a monthly base anyway.

I would probably try the hybrid model to attract new players instead - WoW is free for newbies and then becomes paid (although there is also an option to pay subscriptions by playing the game intensively). This model seems good to me but it also go in opposition with "no unnecessary server load" idea. But of course I think some compromising solutions could be made here - may be limiting the free newbie area so it is not very expensive to run or so with totally strange idea of limiting the available "slots" for free to play players... or give them only certain options just to feel the game but play it in a way that is beneficial to other players (the subscribers). For example, allowing them to play in the roles of NPC's/monster with limited options for movement and interaction, and thus actually make the game more interesting for paying customers. They will be able to play a very limited part of the game but will eventually feel attached to it and maybe convert to "paying players".... I know this idea is far-fetched but it is just an idea that tries to be "open minded" and trigger other ideas and solutions ;)

 

I'm sure the team is considering many options and they will come with the right model at the end so my goal was just to iterate a bit over the topic and maybe push the thinking in some weird directions.

 

As of me, I would definitely try the game (if it is not too hardware-heavy), no matter the payment method.

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