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Imperial foundations.


Dreamstar

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Hello community,

 

I'm here to open some discussion on the workings of what will hopefully become a much loved or loathed Empire.

 

After several discussions with Astrophil, and friends which procrastinate on coming to these forums, I've decided to put the confederated empire idea to rest, for now at least only to return if more people think that would be better than a super strong centralized guild.

 

This new concept will revolve around the same basic principles as before, Nobility - Emperor - Senate - but instead of confederation of external and internal guilds within the empire we will adhere to strict Vassalisation of guilds.

 

The main power will be split between the Emperor and the Senate, so as to prevent burdening one group with too much responsibility. Powers that need direct reactions will be oriented towards the Emperor, and decisions that require time finesse or many opinions will be oriented towards the Senate.

 

Emperor - Managing nobility - Management of Vassals / placing vassals in charge of provinces - command of armed forces - managing foreign affairs (but not declaring war without approval from the senate),

 

Senate - Allocating budget and taxes on vassal's - Voting on code enforceable laws and non code enforced laws, managing a judicial / inquisition force to double check for compliance with non hard code enforced laws - Creation or destruction of internal guilds (Merchant guilds, Mining corps, Imperial Bounty Hunter Societies, Piracy//Privateer organisations, ect...) - Redrawing province / state / vassal borders.

 

Vassals - will be minor guilds that exist within the empire, either created by the empire or an external guild that is assimilated. The structure of these guilds might have any internal composition the players wanted, autocratic, plutocratic, or democratic, but they will all answer to the Emperor and his/her military force, and obey the laws of the Senate. They will govern some section of imperial land in the stead of the Emperor, or military commander, their assets will be their own but they will be expected to fight for the empire and pay taxes.

 

The Empire may have territory holdings it chooses not to place under the feudal system and management of vassals, it might govern these directly with military commanders that report directly to the emperor.

 

Back to how the Senate will work, in keeping with the general theme of Emperor / Royalty / Nobility, to run for an open Senatorial position you must be some form of Noble. To manage the ever growing an complex system of nobles will require a watchdog, I propose for this an Arbiter / Inquisition institution, which can gather information and present a case to the Senate which can Vote to remove a Noble from their elevated status.

 

Some side notes to consider and come back to, how will Senatorial seats be created or removed.

What pathways will be available to becoming a noble? advance through a knightly order? instant elevation by the emperor? buy your way in? Is there a better system for removal of senators?

Will the inquisition be in charge of monitoring laws passed by the senate that cant be hard enforced with the RDMS and hard code?

 

Looking forward to finding more like minded individuals, suggestions, criticism, or anything else, thank you.

Edited by Saffi
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reserving this slot for any future editing

also completely rewrote the original post. and I do intend for it to be here in general chat, as it isn't a definitive guild yet, I just want to talk about the concept.

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Questions that arise in my head:

 

Is this a player run Empire? Or one that's designed as a functioning game system by the devs? I know there is the BlogPost (http://devblog.dualthegame.com/2015/03/20/organizations-build-your-corporation-faction-nation-or-empire/) which uses the terms Organisations, legates and members, which sounds similar. In both cases, I feel a need to know a little more about how this would function in the game, what shape will it take in terms of actual game mechanics, will it be a case of mega guilds (alliances), and then small guilds join in pre-defined roles?

 

If I can see a diagram, or a way of getting a sense of how this system would take shape in the game, it would be easier for me to picture it in action.

 

I have some desires to run or be part of an Empire potentially, though I'd need to see how effective/how smooth this would be. Otherwise I'd be a small mercantile type player and do my own thing. If being part of an Empire or Organisation felt restrictive, say I have my role, and I have to stick to it in service of the other guilds, and not be able to divulge from it, it would further entice me towards the smaller end of things. That said, I like the sound of Nobility. 

 

This reminds me of a recent kickstarter game: Crowfall, which has its own system known as Eternal Kingdoms, which has players (Monarchs) owning land, controling taxes, creating pvp areas etc. The hierachy is: Monarch, Noble, Vassal and Tenant. The noble, in service to the monarch, much like yours, does the bidding of the Emperor. The Vassals own land, as distributed to them by the Noble, and the Tenant merely uses the land and buildings made available to them. 

 

I can see this working well, I like the idea of hierachy, I've just not seen/or experienced it personally to know how it works, if it works well, what in-game systems are required to do it. My only closest experiences is of alliances and smaller guilds being part, but even then, that's more of an equal partnership of guilds, rather than a hierarchical system.

 

Who gets to be Emperor? Well from what I can gather of Crowfall Monarchs, players have been able to buy into it, at a very high real money cost, but in-game I believe they'll be able to work towards it. I would say, work towards it. If players want to be Emporer's, make them fight for it.

 

I do look forward to hearing more in time how DU devs plan to do Organisations as described in the blog.

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Questions that arise in my head:

 

Is this a player run Empire? Or one that's designed as a functioning game system by the devs? I know there is the BlogPost (http://devblog.dualthegame.com/2015/03/20/organizations-build-your-corporation-faction-nation-or-empire/) which uses the terms Organisations, legates and members, which sounds similar. In both cases, I feel a need to know a little more about how this would function in the game, what shape will it take in terms of actual game mechanics, will it be a case of mega guilds (alliances), and then small guilds join in pre-defined roles?

 

If I can see a diagram, or a way of getting a sense of how this system would take shape in the game, it would be easier for me to picture it in action.

 

I have some desires to run or be part of an Empire potentially, though I'd need to see how effective/how smooth this would be. Otherwise I'd be a small mercantile type player and do my own thing. If being part of an Empire or Organisation felt restrictive, say I have my role, and I have to stick to it in service of the other guilds, and not be able to divulge from it, it would further entice me towards the smaller end of things. That said, I like the sound of Nobility. 

 

This reminds me of a recent kickstarter game: Crowfall, which has its own system known as Eternal Kingdoms, which has players (Monarchs) owning land, controling taxes, creating pvp areas etc. The hierachy is: Monarch, Noble, Vassal and Tenant. The noble, in service to the monarch, much like yours, does the bidding of the Emperor. The Vassals own land, as distributed to them by the Noble, and the Tenant merely uses the land and buildings made available to them. 

 

I can see this working well, I like the idea of hierachy, I've just not seen/or experienced it personally to know how it works, if it works well, what in-game systems are required to do it. My only closest experiences is of alliances and smaller guilds being part, but even then, that's more of an equal partnership of guilds, rather than a hierarchical system.

 

Who gets to be Emperor? Well from what I can gather of Crowfall Monarchs, players have been able to buy into it, at a very high real money cost, but in-game I believe they'll be able to work towards it. I would say, work towards it. If players want to be Emporer's, make them fight for it.

 

I do look forward to hearing more in time how DU devs plan to do Organisations as described in the blog.

 

I think you would fit in beautifully, Miss Astrum. If you plan to be a merchant player, joining the Empire would have considerable benefits including protection and a steady market without much cost on your part. Most probably just tax benefits for selling in the Empire and higher taxes for external trading.

 

Here is a (messy) flowchart for your convenience:

 

http://imgur.com/xw0QWBC

 

Flow of power represented by arrows.

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Hello, yes I would intend for this to be a player run empire, as you say the true structure will depend upon what the team offers us in terms of 'Powers' and 'Duties'

 

With the RDMS system at least it will be possible to create positions and give them certain powers that have rules applied to them. Entities, Tags, Power and Duties.

The guild will be an Entity (Entity 1), from that entity stems some tags which are given to another entity the Emperor and the Senate, (Entity 2 and 3).

 

When a Player becomes the Emperor, its a little unclear to me, they either become the entity or receive a tag allowing them to control the entity. It will of course come with its own powers, and its own duties, but only be able to do whatever Entity 1 allows Entity 2 to do such as making someone a noble which is a tag/power that stems from Enity 1 to any player.

 

the Senate Enity 3, will have the power to make changes to the root Empire guild Entity 1, of course its not just a single player, so by default a majority of senators would be required to agree to something in order for the senate to say yes or no, or make a change to something.

 

The emperor will have the power to give membership tags to other entities (guilds), theyll have functions the emperor and senate will have functions too but im not quite sure how it will work exactly without some hands on. these other guilds the Vassals will have functions roughly relating to, In exchange for becoming a member of the Empire, they pledge loyalty to the empire - and be prevented from declaring war on the empire so long as they are a member.

The senate may adjust some of the Territory Units or other assets of the Empire and either transfer or delegate them to these Vassals, of course that tag or power will come with warranties, the taxes that owning those lands comes with.

 

There may be different levels of nobility at some point, but for now lets just say that anyone that is both a member of the empire, and a noble can run for a seat in the senate. It starts becoming more complex here though,

Im not too sure if it will be possible to create tags that automatically open up on their own. Because what I would like to happen is...

Senate seat is open

member grabs a tag that lets them put in or alter some of the conditions on their own, like how long their term will be - within a preset time 2-6 months- and then submit their application tag to the entire body of nobles with a description of why theyre running.

 

much of this is probably already possible with the current RDMS, some of the things Id like to see might take some time, but they mostly require altering or adding to the RDMS system. though I may be pushing too far into the un-described and unintended.

With any luck maybe theyve already thought of things like this, or possibly they are geniuses and could use existing resources to make a few tabs or screens that could facilitate such purposes.

 

though even if they are unwilling or simply cant cater to allowing the RDMS to work in this way we can use what is available combined with the traditional methods people use to run guilds to make something similar work.

 

also thank you very much Astrophil, the same principles that we discussed when you made the flowchart are still there, its jsut that instead of the imperial league, more emphasis was placed on nobles and everyone simply being a member of the empire or a vassal, which essentially makes them both a imperial member and a member of the lessor guild.

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Never know what kind of possibilities might open up, government sponsored piracy on the empires enemies... I mean that will never happen, the Empire is a place of Laws and Justice, Nobles and Knights and a gleaming beacon of hope and light in the universe!

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Never know what kind of possibilities might open up, government sponsored piracy on the empires enemies... I mean that will never happen, the Empire is a place of Laws and Justice, Nobles and Knights and a gleaming beacon of hope and light in the universe!

 

Your words! They burn!

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I think you would fit in beautifully, Miss Astrum. If you plan to be a merchant player, joining the Empire would have considerable benefits including protection and a steady market without much cost on your part. Most probably just tax benefits for selling in the Empire and higher taxes for external trading.

 

Here is a (messy) flowchart for your convenience:

 

http://imgur.com/xw0QWBC

 

Flow of power represented by arrows.

 

Thank you for the flow chart  :D. It all seems very interesting. A little complex perhaps in some ways, but could certainly create some interesting player interactions. I like the idea of having a mighty Empire, whether that is Emperor, Senate or Nobility, yet also living as an independant merchant of sorts appeals as well. That said, for all I know I could end up being more of a pirate  :lol:.

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I've received much feedback on this already, and having some discussions that what I described is unfeasible because there is no good method of checks and balances, and that its a bit redundant to have an Emperor and a Senate, also its not a true emperor if they have term limits.

 

I've received input from several people on why the Romans system was pretty bad because the Emperor controlled who was in the Senate, and naturally everyone wanted to keep their jobs so they just went along with everything the Emperor did good or bad. Also input on why an imperial confederation is a poor choice.

 

Ill have to think on this for a while, the situation is a bit different from in real life but people will still be greedy, jealous, and make plots. Trying to find some balance of Constitutional Monarchy and not become some plebeian democratic.

Its quite difficult when many people want something specific and its not something complementary, though I'm not one to give up, the ultimate goal is to have a society where everyone contributes to this greater empire at large, and yet can also protect and cater to small guilds that might be deterred from joining or incorporating otherwise.

 

The original post isn't my best incarnation of this idea, which is sad, its been beaten up and has some contradictions if you look closely. So I'm heading back to the thinking room to forge something, both more presentable and desirable.

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Well, remember that there will be countless worlds for players to colonize. Could simply have one elected representative from each world be on a council, and from there said representatives would elect their own Speaker (IE: Emperor, President whatever floats your boat). Keeps in line with having a figure head, but still limits power to the representatives from each world.

 

Said "Speaker" would do nothing more than be a voice of wisdom, whose word could potentially carry more weight than the rest. Keep the elections rotated every 3 - 6 months to keep things fresh, and you have a functioning democratic space civilization. For the most part, each representative would control and maintain their own worlds (IE: Governors). If a planet would want to opt in to support an Imperial fleet, that is their decision.

 

Keeps each world autonomous, with a council of individuals elected by their own groups to represent them. 

 

Personally, it isn't the life for me. I made it quite abundantly clear on my stance of democracies within games, but this system utilizes both democratic authority as well as leaving the planets to govern themselves how they like. I suppose in an effort to keep everyone somewhat on the same page, that for a planet to have a seat on said Imperial Council, they must follow certain guidelines.

 

Just my 2 cents, and could be expanded on more but I'll leave it like this.

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Ima make a ship, live on the ship and operate on the ship. I'll touch down occasionally for resources, but you will most likely find me on the dark side of the moon.

I will probably do the same: live on my ship, explore planets and the far reaches of space, form a small dedicated group.

 

Else, this concept seems interesting.

 

Regards,

Shadow

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How about tweaking it a little so that the three ruling bodies each have more clearly defined roles.  The Empire is still a trifector, but the three parts instead are considered to be equally powerful, at least in theory.  In practice they will have different roles and different numbers of members so you won't really be able to compare the amount of "power" they have, but they will certainly have equal ownership of the Empire.  The three parts are the Emperorship - responsible for military matters, the Senate - responsible for internal politics and laws, and the Guild - responsible for financial matters.

 

Composition

 

The Emperorship consists of a single person - the Emperor.  She/he can use however many advisors, and delegate whatever powers she/he likes to whomever she/he likes, but ultimate power of the responsibilities of the Emperorship belongs to the Emperor.  The first Emperor is likely to be the leader of the organisation(s) from which the Empire was born.  If an Empress decides to abdicate the Emperorship, she selects her successor, and the Guild and Senate must then each cast a vote of confidence for the succession to take place.

 

The Senate consists of a number of elected Senators.  Senators are elected per territory that the Empire controls.  Anyone who lives in the territory (how this is defined and controlled is not clear) can run to be the Senator representing it, and only people living in that territory may vote.  There may also have to be an additional Senatorship for members who do not have a fixed abode within or without the Empire's borders.  Elections take place once per defined term (a year?).  After elections of Senators, the Senators vote amongst themselves for a President of the Senate who has certain executive powers.  The Senate vote on the vast majority of matters that are within their power and the voting system can be as complex or as simple as they collectively decide.  It will be a living, breathing political system.

 

The Guild consists mainly of leaders of prominent organisations and super-rich players in the empire.  There are three ways to become a Guild legate - buy your way in; be voted in by Guild legates; or through an empire member organisation.  The price for buying your way in is decided by the Guild and can be whatever the Guild chooses it to be for each individual case.  The percentage of votes required to be voted in as a member should be 67% although the Guild can change this figure via an internal voting system.  The third way is to ensure inclusion in the Guild of newer or growing member organisations.  Any organisation within the Empire that has a minimum number of members must have at least one player in the Guild.  Say the limit is 100.  If that organisation does not yet have a Guild member in its ranks then it can select any one of its player members for accession into the Guild.  The Senate decides what this minimum is within pre-defined (probably by the Emperorship), unalterable percentage limits.  The Guild can decide and change its internal structure as it sees fit, can have a leader with a few or many powers, but leadership must be termed and decided democratically amongst Guild legates.

 

I've thought about how the legate and member system defined in the devblog https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/32-devblog-organizations-build-your-corporation-faction-nation-or-empire/can be used to put this together and it shouldn't be too difficult.  I won't go into it here, but if anyone wants to know, I'll explain.

 

Powers and Responsibilities

 

The Emperorship's main power resides in the control of the military and war.  Its main responsibility is in the protection and expansion of territorial borders.  The Emperorship has complete control over the recruitment, training and deployment of forces and can unilaterally declare war or peace.

 

The Senate's main responsibility is to keep the every day members of the Empire entertained, provide content, listen to and understand their needs, wants and concerns.  The Senate also decides on Empire-wide laws which apply to its members, what is and is not allowed, and resolves disputes between member organisations.  Each Senator has some devolved powers which allow her/him to apply laws to the territory she/he represents, and resolve disputes between members.  The Senate and each Senator are also responsible for the deployment of police and militia forces provided by the Emperorship.  The Senate should also have certain powers which temper the powers of the Guild and Emperorship, but I haven't thought that through properly.

 

The Guild's first responsibility is to ensure that the Empire is rich, and gets richer.  Where the Emperorship's power are mostly outward-facing, and the Senate's are inward-facing, the Guild's crosses both lines.  Externally they have most of the powers over foreign policy and are responsible for maintaining and nurturing alliances and relationships with other large organisations.  They are also responsible for espionage, diplomacy.  Internally, they have the power to decide taxation limits, can grant/deny access to important natural resources, and can grant major contracts on the Empire level to its member organisations or external organisations.

 

Some powers should be shared between two or all three of the trifector.  Such as deciding to admit new members / member organisations to the Empire.  Or overruling destructive decisions made by one of the three, by having the other two unite against it.  Or major Empire-wide decisions such as relocating the entire Empire (although if it is a military necessity the Emperorship can decide this on its own).

 

I see this kind of structure possibly working for an organisation that has a fair bit of territory - at least 20 claimed territory tiles, and at least a few hundred members.  Less than that and it is too much for too little gain.

 

I know I've missed plenty out, but I thought I'd add my ideas to the mix.  Now that I read my post back I wonder whether it should have been a separate thread, but hopfeully it's okay.

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  • 4 months later...

My interest is piqued about this guild alliance.  Seem a natural thematic fit for the 47th Legion :P

I was wondering what infrastructure you are currently working on to support this endeavor?  Obviously the essentials are a website, forum, and some type of VOIP service.  Steam groups are also very handy.

 

Also, I wouldn't worry too much but the admin side of this.  Keep it simple.  Have the emperor and the senate and have the senate comprised of the guild leaders.  Sure, the senate can vote to do whatever but at the end of the day the emperor makes the call.  Don't turn it into a democracy; that's for online drama queens.  Use the senators as the primary admins and leave it at that.  Guilds come and go and it's all part of guild alliance life.

Seriously, don't over think it :)

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Here's a thread I didn't think would come back to haunt me. I've said alot of things, how much can I live up to I wonder.

 

Ill reveal Cinderfall soon, Ive had my head spinning in the throes of how centralized or decentralized the heel should be.

I feel like i keep saying this, and really dont have much to show for it. well at least the organisation's function will be well defined...

 

I've also been struggling with just what function the central state serves. Is it itself a guild? is it just the diplomatic process for guilds to cooperate? ect.

But Ive decided Cinderfall will be a guild, it will just have a very plugin accessible mode for other guilds with which to interact, and that those guilds may retain their autonomy with minimal hindrances.

 

The balancing act requires absolute finesse to every nuance, I've failed before in running a mega-guild / alliance

 

A good website is something that will be great, Im just not capable of developing a AAA style website. I want to drive traffic to the official forums for now, once the community is stronger paying someone or purchasing a good website, as well as developing digital art assets wont be a problem. a part of the development process hinges on how far away a test bed or playable version of the game to the public is, which is probably a ways off.

 

VOIP is good, I want to keep all discussion about finite details on the workings of Cinderfall in text or paper. However discussing any nuances verbally is just fine, and its very useful for fleet battles.

 

One of the most difficult and trick things to work out is, if you have an Imperial Navy and are being attacked on multiple front's that are owned by allied guilds how do you justify defending one front over another. Resources or constructs factories, may be considered but one group will ultimately feel cheated.

 

for the sake of the story of Cinderfall, Ill probably do away with having any particular player be an emperor. titles like that tend to make people crazy, myself included.

Instead im intending to become the director of it, maybe a prince/princess.I promise to release something tangible to the arkship pub soon - I just cant rush until every detail is in place or it will just cause confusion and look weak.

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Ah, so the alliance idea has been scrapped. Good luck with the new guild! If you need some help getting setup shoot me a PM. I've been leading my guild since I started it in 2007 so I like to think I have a handle on this stuff :P

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One of the greatest difficulties, is trying to understand in this game where the lines of an alliance or a guild begin and end.

To just what end does the tagging and guild system work. Can a guild be an alliance?, can you be in the alliance and not be in any guild?

If theres a map in the game, will it show territorial border's? can it be split to show guilds territory or will it only display alliance territory?

 

I wouldn't rule out the idea of working together just yet, but the functionality of it is sketchy right now. I'm hammering words and things right now, I really wish there was just something more tangible to work with than fluffy theories.

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