There's Gold in Them There Hills!

[KlatuSatori]

I've been thinking about how explorers might be able to make a living in DU.  There is only one game I know of that has it right and that is Elite Dangerous.  Explorers fly out into the unknown scanning stars and planets with specialised scanning equipment.  When they come back to civilisation they sell the data to NPC empires for a price.  This works well for two reasons: E:D is huge so there is always something new to find; NPC empires always want to buy the data.

 

First I have to make a few assumptions because I can't really talk about the first aspect definitively as I don't yet have a good idea of how large DU is going to be.  Initially it will be a single planet and even after official release it seems it may be months before any player manages to launch themselves into space.  However, the territory control blog entry talks about a 30km planet being divided up into 1km hexes.  That would mean over 11,000 territory tiles to explore on the starting planet.  I think it is a fair assumption to make that only dedicated explorers are likely to see a sizable fraction of those hexes and that the vast vast majority of those hexes will not have players living in them.  Once players start venturing off into space, there will be other stars, planets, moons, asteroids, regions/bubbles of space, etc to explore, also with hexes.  So another assumption is that this space will also only be seen by players who make an active effort to go out and see some of it, and that it will largely remain uninhaited by players even once the game is in full swing with thousands of active players.  My final assumption is that the DU universe will actually be enlarged as and when the developers see fit and that ensuring explorers always have something new to, uh, explore, is a factor.

 

If a similar, true exploration system were to work in DU it would naturally need to be entirely player-driven, which means there must be a player demand for exploration data.  That in turn means that, ideally, players need to start the game starved of map data.  The most basic type of exploration data would simply be an image representation of a territory tile.  Players can fill out their world map by exploring the world, or by buying map data from people who have already been around.  This type of data will also have a "resolution" of sorts once space exploration begins - resolutions may be "solar system", "bubble" (as mentioned in the territory blog), "astronomical body" (i.e. star/planet/etc), "territory tile", and perhaps smaller if there are plans to split tiles up into smaller pieces.

 

Now anyone with feet can go out and pick up that kind of simple data without any kind of specialised equipment and it likely wouldn't sell for very much, or anything at all once a sufficiently large number of players have it.  A true explorer will have scanning and analysing equipment of various kinds to retrieve more detailed information.  A territory tile could be analysed in detail to provide a terrain map.  Other details might include information about flora and fauna, player presence and player built structures, yet more may include some mining information, and the most sophisticated triquarters might be able to give detailed information about the composition of the land and presence and size of underground caves and mines.

 

Now explorers have a reason to exist.  Players who want to move to a new, untouched area but don't have the time, resources or inclination to scope out hundreds of potential places for themselves can simply buy it from a professional.  Larger organisations may have the resources to employ explorers to search for specific things or specific areas, and during times of war or pre-war explorers may double as scouts and spies.

 

In order for this to work there needs to be a framework in place where exploration data can be reliably traded.  NQ have written about the market but exploration data can really only traded in a specific contract.  There might be a buy order contract for land within x radius that contains at least y amount of raw material A, for example.  I seem to remember NQ saying a contracts system is planned, and if it is anything like as flexible as the RDMS, tagging and organisation systems then it would probably be able to cater for this kind of trading mechanism without too much tweaking.  The other requirement is for different types of scanning and analysing equipment to made available or buildable.

 

I think there are lots of players, myself included, who love to go out and explore game universes, but it is always a richer and more rewarding experience when you affect the game and other players in doing so, while also making a little profit.  So with a little attention to ensure the game mechanisms support the activity, and keeping in mind my assumptions above, it could be workable.

[vylqun]

Making exploration worthwhile is actually a pretty interesting and complex topic.

There are several possible aspects of exploration, ranging from only small impact to a very heavy impact on the game.

The easiest possibility would be to have mining/ressource gathering. Explorers would travel the world, scanning for rare mineral nodes, botanical features etc. and sell the information about the locations to other players/organizations, or just using the discovered ressource for yourself.

The second, more interesing way is to include archeological sites to the planets, explorers could find ancient alien artifacts, which improve certain aspects of crafting or are just collectibles.

 

The most interesting possibility to include exploration in the game is connecting it with science, let me explain this more detailed

 

To use ressources for crafting they have to be refined first, metals have to be turned into compounds, active substances from plants need to be extracted in various ways, chemicals need to be mixed etc. etc. Different methodes of refining would lead to different materials having their own specific use for crafting.

At the beginning of the journey the players only know some basic methodes of refining, only know a few possible refined materials, thus greatly limiting the possibly crafted items. To increase the "knowledge" about those refined materials and their uses the players need to read papers created by players with the science skill

 

How are those papers created? Players with the science skill can use found ressources, compounds etc. to do research about its uses. If they gather enough knowledge about a ressource they discover a possible use or way to refine it, afterwards they basically create a "skillbook" which lets other players who use it learn about the discovery and be able to use it in crafting.

If just the ordinary ressource is used to conduct the research, the research bar will fill slowy and the result is random. Thats the case if a person wants to research the useage of a certain radioactive isotope and only has the pure isotope, he can research it, but he won't know what he discoveres, if it can be used as catalyst for some chemical reaction, if it can be used for isotope batteries or maybe even for nuclear reactors. It could also be possible to discover its use for sensors in vehicles or anything. On the other hand, if he has the isotope in combination with a different material which shows some of its unique features, or if the isotope was found in an enviroment where it caused some effects which were recorded, then the research with that knowledge or sample is a lot faster and the direction in which its going is at least roughly estimateable.

 

And thats where explorers become important. They basically search the whole world for scientific interesting samples or locations and sell those discoveries to other players or organizations which want to conduct research on it. If a player finds that radioactive isotope which is imbeded in a different material and produces extreme heat, then this would certainly be something worth collecting and selling, there might even be organizations competing over the sample because everyone wants to be the first to research thermonuclear power or smoething.

 

Exploration would enable science to become a very important tpoic for organizations, because they can get ahead of others if they spend enough effort to find or buy a vast amount of samples which can be used for research. Rare samples could be exeedingly expensive, research results something to be fought for.

Lucky explorers might become the most sought for persons in the game

[KlatuSatori]

Making exploration worthwhile is actually a pretty interesting and complex topic.

There are several possible aspects of exploration, ranging from only small impact to a very heavy impact on the game.

The easiest possibility would be to have mining/ressource gathering. Explorers would travel the world, scanning for rare mineral nodes, botanical features etc. and sell the information about the locations to other players/organizations, or just using the discovered ressource for yourself.

The second, more interesing way is to include archeological sites to the planets, explorers could find ancient alien artifacts, which improve certain aspects of crafting or are just collectibles.

 

The most interesting possibility to include exploration in the game is connecting it with science, let me explain this more detailed

 

I wouldn't underestimate the importance of knowledge of terrain and raw materials locations in a large PvP arena-type game universe though - to my mind this has the greatest potential impact on gameplay.

 

I like the idea of having unique and/or rare items in the universe which add additional types of specialisation for explorers.  I view these as separate ideas from exploration though.  Just as exploration is separate from mining, even though you can't mine without knowing where to mine first.

 

I think we need to be careful about forcing explorers down a particular path, or into equipping themselves for an activity other than exploring.  Some players may only be interested in getting the most basic "images" of each area - those will equip themselves for speed so that they can visit as many places as possible as quickly as possible.  Others may want to search nearby, barely explored areas for natural resources - those will need advanced scanning equipment.  Others might be on the look out for rare items - those will want a small cargo hold.  This kind of specialisation and variety adds richness to the activity.

 

What I'm trying to get at is that exploration is the base activity and should be catered for in and of itself; additional reasons for exploration and things to do while exploring on top of that are a bonus, but shouldn't be forced upon the explorer.

[vylqun]

 

I wouldn't underestimate the importance of knowledge of terrain and raw materials locations in a large PvP arena-type game universe though - to my mind this has the greatest potential impact on gameplay.

 

 

that is of course true, but its not sustainable, not even with a small ingame population (and we all hope it will be a huge one)^^

[KlatuSatori]

that is of course true, but its not sustainable, not even with a small ingame population (and we all hope it will be a huge one)^^

Indeed that is why I made some assumptions in my OP. Assuming there is a large player base, it depends on how large the game universe will be, how fast players will be able to travel, and how difficult it will be to travel fast. Lots of variables. Ultimately it depends on whether NQ want the universe to ever become fully "known". Personally I'd like a universe that always has wild, unknown frontiers

[NQ-Nyzaltar]

Hi Klatu and Vylqun!

The vision you have about exploration is, for the most part, the same we have at Novaquark.

 

@Klatu:

 

• Explorer specialization won't be just for the sake of exploring. Of course, we plan to make it as insteresting as possible for people who just want to discover new horizons, but we plan to do more than that.
   
• Indeed, we plan Explorer specialization as a viable way to make a living in the game, exactly how you described it: Explorers will often be the ones to gather resources, but they will have also another kind of income: trading information about resource locations through contracts (which will be a practical use of the RDMS, Rights & Duties Management System).
   
• Yes, players (especially the first wave) will start the game starved of data. There will be minimal info even about the starting planet, Alioth, at the beginning. We want to generate naturally player demand about map data that way. Explorers will also be - most likely - Cartographers of the planet but also of the surrounding space (first Alioth's solar system, and then the galaxy surrounding it!). The known areas will grow accordingly with player exploration speed.
   
• The size of the game universe is virtually unlimited. That's the point of having a procedurally generated Universe. We don't want players to be at some point blocked or slowed down due to lack of content to explore. This might be described in a more detailed way in the future, on the DevBlog.
   
• Explorer specialization will be possible on two axis (like any other specialization): Training skills and crafting (or buying) gear more and more efficient.

 

All in all, we have the goal to make any specialization fun to play, but also - and we think that's what is lacking in many games - meaningful in a massively multiplayer game world, that each player find useful to group together, either for having complementary skills or to make a big corporation specialized in one activity and selling their services for large-scale ingame projects!

 

@Vylqun:

 

• Crafting will imply intermediary states between raw resources and a finished products. That's why you will have "alloys" and "parts". The way of learning new "recipes" (we should avoid to use the word "skillbook" here, to avoid confusion with learning new skills) is still under discussion in the team. Crafting will most probably be the topic of a DevBlog post in the future
   
• If all goes well, yes, Explorers should be as much popular with Scientists/Researchers as with Industrialists/Crafters

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

[KlatuSatori]

Thanks for the response, Nyzaltar.  It's great to hear you were already planning this kind of immersive and meaningful experience!  There's plenty more to discuss and potential issues to consider, but perhaps it's best left there for now until it comes up in a devblog or something.  Cheers!

[vylqun]

i'm looking forward to that devblog

[DevisDevine]

Old dead post but I'm going to be Lazareth today because it is an idea we should make sure is implemented in some way.

I cant say I disagree with anything really said here, so I will just give my take on the idea, which really is just a suggestion on how to carry it out. 

 

So a player stepping out of the Ark has no idea what is around him, you can assume he gets visual data as he explores the area around him but not much else. But I want to jump back a bit from here. I love the idea of data resolution, I can sell you a map of the continent, but that doesnt mean I have sold you geological surveys as well. So lets look at this from the point of view of the player looking to set out into space, but does not want to do the exploring himself, he would rather buy data that people aready have.

Lets assume somehow he already has a spacecraft, flying in orbit. I would make the assumption that if you are navigating in space you have the ability to easily determine where stars are located, and possibly some basic data (mass estimate and class of star). But I have no clue whats there, is it worth my time and fuel even jumping to the star system? What if there are no habitable worlds, or worlds at all in that system. I que up the nav menu and select a nearby star I was interested in. From there I can see that someone has system scans on the market for XXX credits, maybe this is the lowest offer of 3 players. Its worth it to save me the time so I buy it and see there are 4 planets. Now this data is encrypted unless I were to go there and make a new scan of the system so I cant sell it to anyone else, allowing the buyer to sell it again, keeping his sell price low for his invested time. 

 

Of the 4 planets I see one is barren rock, 2 gas giants, and one habitable world. I can then select one to buy  more detailed data about it (surface maps, weather, claimed territories, maybe last known population estimates, general things you would get from viewing it). Only 3 of the sellers actually have the data on all 4 planets. Maybe one of the sellers offers a package deal thats 25% off when buying the data for all 4. I have no interest in the gas giants ATM, and could eventually scan them myself if I decide to make the planet my home so I only buy the data on the habitable planet. I see that someone was bored and decided to take geological surveys of the whole planet (now this could be a tedious task, or maybe with advanced tech a few probes could scan the whole surface, who knows) Since I know that there are some crucial ores I require I buy the geological surveys as well. 

 

This provides me with all the data on the planet I would need and can even begin determine the best location for settlement while I warp there. This could be extended to possibly include geological surveys of asteroid belts as well (depends if they are local sites like most games or a true, massive belt around the sun). If I dont find what I like I can buy data on another system and see about it. And if the seller has a way to sell the data multiple times, it could become really cheap to make it worth his wild. 

A description could be entered into the data package by the seller as well. Maybe he wants to tag it outright that there is a habitable planet there so more people purchase that particular data package, of course he could be lying about it and you wont know until you buy the data. It's a bit complex but it would make explorer a profession. Especially for an alliance who wants to locate in a resource rich area. Or needs to know whats the best place to set up a stargate so their miners can travel quickly to a system rich in ore. 

 

 

Now that is a player driven system, but you could go the Elite Dangerous route and have the Ark AI purchasing this data from explorers, then it could either be freely provided to colonist or still have a purchase system of some sort. This would be one method of adding money into the economy, and possibly taking it out if they add the purchase system for the data. 

However I would think if you go the NPC purchase route it just be for the high level data. If someone spends a lot of time surveying for rare ores, it is best if they have some way of profiting from it, and not just everyone being able to tell. Now the Ark could pay a premium for data on different ore deposits, but I think a player can do better by selling the location to a player miner or faction. 

 

Although I am not that big on exploring myself, I hope Nova-quark implements something along these lines. 

[Zen001]

I've been thinking about how explorers might be able to make a living in DU.  There is only one game I know of that has it right and that is Elite Dangerous.  Explorers fly out into the unknown scanning stars and planets with specialised scanning equipment.  When they come back to civilisation they sell the data to NPC empires for a price.  This works well for two reasons: E:D is huge so there is always something new to find; NPC empires always want to buy the data.

 

First I have to make a few assumptions because I can't really talk about the first aspect definitively as I don't yet have a good idea of how large DU is going to be.  Initially it will be a single planet and even after official release it seems it may be months before any player manages to launch themselves into space.  However, the territory control blog entry talks about a 30km planet being divided up into 1km hexes.  That would mean over 11,000 territory tiles to explore on the starting planet.  I think it is a fair assumption to make that only dedicated explorers are likely to see a sizable fraction of those hexes and that the vast vast majority of those hexes will not have players living in them.  Once players start venturing off into space, there will be other stars, planets, moons, asteroids, regions/bubbles of space, etc to explore, also with hexes.  So another assumption is that this space will also only be seen by players who make an active effort to go out and see some of it, and that it will largely remain uninhaited by players even once the game is in full swing with thousands of active players.  My final assumption is that the DU universe will actually be enlarged as and when the developers see fit and that ensuring explorers always have something new to, uh, explore, is a factor.

 

If a similar, true exploration system were to work in DU it would naturally need to be entirely player-driven, which means there must be a player demand for exploration data.  That in turn means that, ideally, players need to start the game starved of map data.  The most basic type of exploration data would simply be an image representation of a territory tile.  Players can fill out their world map by exploring the world, or by buying map data from people who have already been around.  This type of data will also have a "resolution" of sorts once space exploration begins - resolutions may be "solar system", "bubble" (as mentioned in the territory blog), "astronomical body" (i.e. star/planet/etc), "territory tile", and perhaps smaller if there are plans to split tiles up into smaller pieces.

 

Now anyone with feet can go out and pick up that kind of simple data without any kind of specialised equipment and it likely wouldn't sell for very much, or anything at all once a sufficiently large number of players have it.  A true explorer will have scanning and analysing equipment of various kinds to retrieve more detailed information.  A territory tile could be analysed in detail to provide a terrain map.  Other details might include information about flora and fauna, player presence and player built structures, yet more may include some mining information, and the most sophisticated triquarters might be able to give detailed information about the composition of the land and presence and size of underground caves and mines.

 

Now explorers have a reason to exist.  Players who want to move to a new, untouched area but don't have the time, resources or inclination to scope out hundreds of potential places for themselves can simply buy it from a professional.  Larger organisations may have the resources to employ explorers to search for specific things or specific areas, and during times of war or pre-war explorers may double as scouts and spies.

 

In order for this to work there needs to be a framework in place where exploration data can be reliably traded.  NQ have written about the market but exploration data can really only traded in a specific contract.  There might be a buy order contract for land within x radius that contains at least y amount of raw material A, for example.  I seem to remember NQ saying a contracts system is planned, and if it is anything like as flexible as the RDMS, tagging and organisation systems then it would probably be able to cater for this kind of trading mechanism without too much tweaking.  The other requirement is for different types of scanning and analysing equipment to made available or buildable.

 

I think there are lots of players, myself included, who love to go out and explore game universes, but it is always a richer and more rewarding experience when you affect the game and other players in doing so, while also making a little profit.  So with a little attention to ensure the game mechanisms support the activity, and keeping in mind my assumptions above, it could be workable.

You lost me at 'There is only one game that has it right and that is Elite Dangerous'. Sorry but if any game in the history of gaming has ever gotten it absolutely wrong, it's ED. First, there is absolutely no reason why a galaxy should consist of billions of systems when the only thing to do is scan and pew pew NPCs. Which brings me to the fact only a handful of players can interact much less organize any real impact on the game. What's more there is only rudimentary building but this is more or less a moot point given there is hardly anyone or anything to build for. And mining? Don't get me started. 

 

I have spent countless hours doing it all: scanning, mining and of course, space trucking - oh the glories of space trucking! And I have to say, it was time I wish I could get back. Of course the game is still being developed and slowly and surely content is increasing. And that's a good thing. But saying ED's got it right as an income for Explorers? Yikes. What's more all that scanning comes at a price: endlessly veering from a sun every single time you land in a system.... that gets really old fast! And sure, scanning is a must for every space game, but that gets really old super fast....even faster than veering from suns. 

 

Anyway, please DU don't emulate ED. Make a galaxy big but make it so lots of people can make their claim wherever they go. Scanning is a must but it will not keep players playing. There has to be more for explorers like mining, building, interacting with other players, charting routes, creating colonies and the list goes on and on....scanning should be profitable but only a small part of a much bigger picture.  As far as I am concerned, ED is a lesson in what not to do in gaming, which is probably why so many have quit or can't be bothered to log back on.  

 

PS

 

Oh, and when DU eventually does scanning and I'm sure they will, please don't force players to fly all over the system to scan.....especially if they already flew thousands of systems to get there. 

[KlatuSatori]

I still like Elite Dangerous but I was really just referring to the value of exploration in that game, not the specifics of how that data is retrieved.

 

If an explorer is mining or building, then he is not an explorer... he's a miner or a builder (having said that there is nothing to stop you from exploring until you find a good spot, then stopping, building, mining). But of course an explorer could be interacting with other players. A group of players could be exploring together, possibly in a fleet or possibly all on a single multiplayer ship.

 

Furthermore, if you make it to easy to scan an entire solar system then you shrink the universe and it then needs to be bigger to ensure that there is always something new to explore. And then you have the problem of a big empty universe with no one in it.

 

Exploration, by definition, is going to places that no one has ever been to before, whether it's an underground cave, a continent no one's ever been to, or a solar system never explored before. If everywhere has been visited and explored in its entirety, then exploration just becomes a word, the actual activity is something else.

 

@DevisDevine

I completely agree with everything you said. Only thing I would say is I think it should be an incredibly difficult task for a single person to get detailed geological scans of every territory tile on a planet (1000-100000 tiles!). Players might decide to specialise in space exploration or planetary exploration rather than making it easy for spacers to get everything in one go.

 

 

Edit @Zen001

"Please don't make me fly all over the system" sounds like you just don't like exploring to be honest. Which is fair enough.

[norab7]

I like the idea's here but I don't like how it's done.

 

I don't think you should just 'go somewhere' and get the information, you should have to test the area, or take a sample or something. Do a action to get a result, like using a machine to get a core sample of the planet to give you information about it's materials and rarity. Or processing a air sample you've taken in a biome, different samples for different biomes. I don't mind the mapping data being just a fly over thing, but maybe a little bit more complex map data that just 'Here's the planet'.

 

If maps are represented in a holographic globe (We don't know anything about maps yet i think) we could have a level of detail of the planet. The closer you fly to the ground or the better your 'scanning technologies' are the more detail of the planet surface you can get, otherwise it's more of a blur of mountains, or if you haven't entered the atmosphere it's just a colored sphere telling you nothing more than 'there is a planet there'.

 

If you do manage to have a close look at the surface you could start to gain map data of trees, wildlife, crevasses, hills, lakes, oceans depending on where you travel to. And taking 'core samples' could give you information in a range around where you took the sample, so again the better equipment you have the wider the range you can get the information from.

 

This would allow a hefty amount of data to be sold, Wild Life, Ore, Rarity, Maps, Water, Atmosphere. Gives the explorer the option to sell more than just 'maps'.

 

Obviously this is probably what the other people meant but as I started typing my fingers just started to type by themselves. Hope it makes sense.

 

nora,

[KlatuSatori]

What you're saying fits quite well with the overall idea of having different "resolutions" of data.

 

And I agree there's a difference between map data, atmospheric data, geological data, and biological data. Each could have their own levels of complexity and depth with the general theme of better equipment = more detailed information, closer analysis = more detailed information. Explorers could choose to specialise in one field or do a bit of everything, etc.

[DevisDevine]

Admit it, you didn't want us to leave you out Nora.

 

And yes, I agree with you I didn't mention anything about how you obtain the data, obviously there will be scanners and possibly soles involved. Upgrades can get data faster and further away, you'd have to fly to the planets orbit to get more data than its there and this mass.

 

These methods are a fairly common thing in games, so I focused on the sale and trade of the data, what would make it a viable occupation. I would like to point out, even today we can get detailed surface scans of the planet from orbit. Spectrochromogrophy can get accurate readings of atmospheric compositions from viewing it. Sometimes with various sensors we can detect areas of denser ore pockets. So I wouldn't say they need to be there with a test tube and lab set saying it, but I would expect it to take unique and specialized equipment.

[Zen001]

I still like Elite Dangerous but I was really just referring to the value of exploration in that game, not the specifics of how that data is retrieved.

 

If an explorer is mining or building, then he is not an explorer... he's a miner or a builder (having said that there is nothing to stop you from exploring until you find a good spot, then stopping, building, mining). But of course an explorer could be interacting with other players. A group of players could be exploring together, possibly in a fleet or possibly all on a single multiplayer ship.

 

Furthermore, if you make it to easy to scan an entire solar system then you shrink the universe and it then needs to be bigger to ensure that there is always something new to explore. And then you have the problem of a big empty universe with no one in it.

 

Exploration, by definition, is going to places that no one has ever been to before, whether it's an underground cave, a continent no one's ever been to, or a solar system never explored before. If everywhere has been visited and explored in its entirety, then exploration just becomes a word, the actual activity is something else.

 

@DevisDevine

I completely agree with everything you said. Only thing I would say is I think it should be an incredibly difficult task for a single person to get detailed geological scans of every territory tile on a planet (1000-100000 tiles!). Players might decide to specialise in space exploration or planetary exploration rather than making it easy for spacers to get everything in one go.

 

 

Edit @Zen001

"Please don't make me fly all over the system" sounds like you just don't like exploring to be honest. Which is fair enough.

Have to disagree. Early explores were driven mostly out of self-interest and profit. They traveled far and wide for gold, silver, new trade routes and the biggest price of all: claiming lands in the names of Kings and Queens. And they were often bankrolled for this very purpose. Profit and gain was the motivating factor for most discoveries, including the big daddy of them all: Christopher Columbus, who was bankrolled by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella. Contract included the following:

 

In the April 1492 "Capitulations of Santa Fe", King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella promised Columbus that if he succeeded he would be given the rank of Admiral of the Ocean Sea and appointed Viceroy and Governor of all the new lands he could claim for Spain. He had the right to nominate three persons, from whom the sovereigns would choose one, for any office in the new lands. He would be entitled to 10 percent of all the revenues from the new lands in perpetuity. Additionally, he would also have the option of buying one-eighth interest in any commercial venture with the new lands and receive one-eighth of the profits

 

 

Wiki

 

 

Clearly colonization was highest on the agenda - even Christopher Columbus established colonies. So it wasn't simply a matter of going somewhere and mapping, or in our case, scanning.  And I hope that exploration means more to DU than just finding things because it can be so much more. As for scanning itself, I prefer the EVE method to flying all over the place, especially after hours of endless flight; it also has the added benefit of breaking up the monotony of excruciatingly long flight times. 

[KlatuSatori]

You seem to be confusing the act of exploration with the motivation for the act. Exploration is an act of discovery.

Christopher Columbus travelled into the unknown, observed, recorded and mapped what he found. That is exploration.

His motivation for that act was fortune. The motivation of his sponsors was expansion.

The purpose of this thread is to enable the act by two means - first ensure that there are always undiscovered territories, second ensure that there are motivations for the act. The motivations of Christopher Columbus and Spain can easily be duplicated with this system.

Let's say there is an organisation X who want to find a new source of some material M. They hire a player P to go and find it specifying roughly how far they are willing to travel for it. Player P hires a bunch of people to crew his large deep space exploration vessel and goes sailing into the unknown. Eventually they find what they are looking for. They map the region and take some detailed surveys of the area that contains the material M. They take this data back to organisation X. As part of the agreement, player P gets to settle in the newly discovered region and takes part ownership in a child organisation that will be set up to colonise and mine the material. At this point, player P has retired as an explorer and is now a colonist/miner/shareholder.

There is no exploration in Eve. You fly around in systems you've been to a thousand times before scanning for dungeons, "exploration sites" which spawn at random. When you find one you warp to it, fight some NPCs, and then unlock canisters that contain items of value using a special module. No part of that is exploration.

Edit: Christopher Columbus spent years exploring the new world going back forth. In my scenario, the actual exploration part which I graze over by saying "eventually" could take any length of time depending on what the specifications of organisation X were. He might find what they want quickly, or it might take months, and he might be competing with other explorers.

[norab7]

Admit it, you didn't want us to leave you out Nora.

 

And yes, I agree with you I didn't mention anything about how you obtain the data, obviously there will be scanners and possibly soles involved. Upgrades can get data faster and further away, you'd have to fly to the planets orbit to get more data than its there and this mass.

 

These methods are a fairly common thing in games, so I focused on the sale and trade of the data, what would make it a viable occupation. I would like to point out, even today we can get detailed surface scans of the planet from orbit. Spectrochromogrophy can get accurate readings of atmospheric compositions from viewing it. Sometimes with various sensors we can detect areas of denser ore pockets. So I wouldn't say they need to be there with a test tube and lab set saying it, but I would expect it to take unique and specialized equipment.

 

Well of course, I have to have a post in 'every thread' otherwise what am i doing with my life and what has become of DU if not... ...

 

But for your points, I don't know about the scans from orbit giving you everything, this is where the line from real-life to game world could be different i think. I think we need some form of activities to get the information and not just fly by scans to give you everything you want.

 

Maybe we could come to a 'dual' idea here. You could have your scans from orbit giving you information about the planet, such as ore deposits, wildlife ect ect, but it will be lacking 'accuracy' giving you a estimated values and location, so you know where to go and 'sample' the planet in order to get more details information. This 'scan from orbit' could be 'soulbound?' or restricted to yourself so you can't sell it, giving you the tools and locations to do your experiements but you still actively have to go and gather the information itself.

 

Higher levels or upgraded equipment could give you more accurate information from orbit too, otherwise you could end up getting information of rare resources when it's actually a funny looking bush in a desert.

 

I think there is a big market for explorers in this game and I've yet to find a game out there that is fun to explore and not just "Once you see one of it, it's all boring then"... exploring with a value of data attached to what you find could give for some interesting game play.

 

However I would say that i think either the information displayed in the market should be automated or the value of the item should be automated, I don't want people being able to label their data as something like 'BEST PLANET EVER BUY NOW' ect ect, and it turns out its a scan of Alioth's Arksite. I think there would be a lot of lieing players if they were able to tag their own marketed data.

 

nora,

[DevisDevine]

Well I would think orbital scans give you images, atmospheric comp, maybe population. That level data. I'd think details on each hex grid, including geological surveys, would be something you either enter the atmosphere for or drop a probe. It could tell you this grid has x amount of this ore and y of this.

 

That could also open up another level of geological detail showing where exactly in the hex the ore is.

 

 

And you would know the locataion the data you are buying is. But yes someone could say platinum deposit in the description (but then you could just go there yourself if he tells you). He could be lying, but I think explorers would begin getting a reputation. But I guess prices would be set, but then only the first person to scan from it could profit, unless the acquired more detailed scans.

[norab7]

Well I would think orbital scans give you images, atmospheric comp, maybe population. That level data. I'd think details on each hex grid, including geological surveys, would be something you either enter the atmosphere for or drop a probe. It could tell you this grid has x amount of this ore and y of this.

 

That could also open up another level of geological detail showing where exactly in the hex the ore is.

 

 

And you would know the locataion the data you are buying is. But yes someone could say platinum deposit in the description (but then you could just go there yourself if he tells you). He could be lying, but I think explorers would begin getting a reputation. But I guess prices would be set, but then only the first person to scan from it could profit, unless the acquired more detailed scans.

 

Well the price of any item on the market will likely be in competition always unless you are a lucky person, and with the amount of people going to play the game i don't see there being a problem seeing data if you can only sell the one thing.

 

Oh... this gives me another idea.. instead of selling the data, you sell the sample (that contains the data) this would restrict the data being cheap by competing people (if the data was infinite in your inventory) because think about it, if you have just the data and you can keep selling it over and over, why would it not just rapidly fall in price with competition (think steam cards, they are pennies now compared to when they first arrived).

 

If you sold the sample you took the data from or the experiment you did, then this you give value to explorers and give them a chance to make money, both because the things you are buying is made from the experiment the explorer did and not infinite (they have to go back and the the experiment again to get more) but also because the explorer had to use technologies to get the information in the first place, so they are required to make money to actually make more machines to help them get the data they need.

 

If the data is infinite and you can just explorer one planet and have the data forever in a sellable state, how would their be any reason to not charge rock bottom prices if you can just put 100 items of data on the market ?.. 

 

Of course the explorer and anyone who buys and uses the data would have that information on there 'map ?' as 'data' but it wouldn't be 'real' data until they went there and saw themselves. Because anyone could have been to the planet after you took the data and done anything to it, it could be a barren wasteland now for all they know.

 

Which comes to another attribute of what you would be selling as a explorer.. Fresh data.. You would most often buy the latest data of a star system as it will give you latest on what resources and omg BUILDINGS are in that system, so you can make a educated decision to visit that system or not.

 

Just pointed out something that could be valuable, and that is information of peoples bases and ships, if you can store and sell that data you could get quite a bit of money, then you could have a whole section for covert operations to get as much data as you can from other guilds.. but that's touching slightly onto spy tactics and such so i'll not expand anymore, but you get the basic idea i hope

 

nora,

[DevisDevine]

Hmm. Interesting. With a possible infinite amount of people you would expect prices to drop as sales go up. But I assumed as more people ventured in an area more would sell their data, dropping prices for that info more. But if you are the only one to a location then it's rare data and worth more, until people venture that way more. This would allow you to make a better profit on new data and not just somewhere everyone is.

 

But having a limited number of copies is interesting. Each scan yields maybe 5 copies of the data, keep it or sell it all off. Better equient will yield more copies, but it will always be finite. Rapidly developing places will have higher demand for updated maps, but also likely more people are making them. It would split groups into the true explorers and just the urban surveyors.

 

I did eleude to the fact it would be data at that time. Having a date of when it was taken would be useful to determining how accurate it is. Maybe when you warp in there's a massive military base built there.

[Zen001]

You seem to be confusing the act of exploration with the motivation for the act. Exploration is an act of discovery.

 

Christopher Columbus travelled into the unknown, observed, recorded and mapped what he found. That is exploration.

 

His motivation for that act was fortune. The motivation of his sponsors was expansion.

 

The purpose of this thread is to enable the act by two means - first ensure that there are always undiscovered territories, second ensure that there are motivations for the act. The motivations of Christopher Columbus and Spain can easily be duplicated with this system.

 

Let's say there is an organisation X who want to find a new source of some material M. They hire a player P to go and find it specifying roughly how far they are willing to travel for it. Player P hires a bunch of people to crew his large deep space exploration vessel and goes sailing into the unknown. Eventually they find what they are looking for. They map the region and take some detailed surveys of the area that contains the material M. They take this data back to organisation X. As part of the agreement, player P gets to settle in the newly discovered region and takes part ownership in a child organisation that will be set up to colonise and mine the material. At this point, player P has retired as an explorer and is now a colonist/miner/shareholder.

 

There is no exploration in Eve. You fly around in systems you've been to a thousand times before scanning for dungeons, "exploration sites" which spawn at random. When you find one you warp to it, fight some NPCs, and then unlock canisters that contain items of value using a special module. No part of that is exploration.

 

Edit: Christopher Columbus spent years exploring the new world going back forth. In my scenario, the actual exploration part which I graze over by saying "eventually" could take any length of time depending on what the specifications of organisation X were. He might find what they want quickly, or it might take months, and he might be competing with other explorers.

Christopher Columbus established colonies while exploring.....please read your history. What you are talking about is map making (cartography) for the most part. Exploration wasn't just about that - colonies were established during the process of charting new, uninhabited (well, uninhabited in their eyes) lands. 

[Zen001]

Perhaps we should be thinking a little more out of the box and try to make exploration a little more than flying somewhere and scanning. Because this is what seems to happen in pretty well every space game made.....not because of history but simply because it requires no thinking and very little effort on the part of Developers. Sadly what passes for exploration now is scanning and while scanning is necessary, it should never be the main focus. Historically, exploration was about claiming land and establishing colonies and this is what DU should focus on. For example, you find a rich planet that is in the Goldilocks zone so you land, claim it and set up a facility to legally lay claim to the planet, or area of the planet. Whether it is an actual human or AI presence would be up to the Developer but it would at least keep exploration from the tedium endless hours scanning that is now synonymous with exploration; focusing on scanning will not promote exploration but make it a grind which is never a good thing in gaming. Sure there will be a few hard core scanners who enjoy nothing better than sitting hundreds of hours in the pilot seat pressing the scan button but they will be few and far between. DU needs to break out of this stereo typical gaming mechanic and make exploration more rewarding - it needs to be challenging and fun and not just another grind. 

[norab7]

Can we all not argue about the difference between exploring and it's meanings. This shouldn't turn into a flame of back and forward comparisons of words, just state your idea or response and we can all read and think of how to make DU better as a whole without the infamous 'E' word causing any more havoc

 

But yeah, i agree that there should be rewards or purpose to the explorers, that's why I mentioned the core samples and taking data from close up to the surface ect, You could have a way for explorers to be the first people to discover alien ruins and the monoliths that are mentioned through out the devblogs, claiming the prize for themselve or selling it.

 

You will always have a stale game eventually for explorers in any sandbox game because players will congregate, and form a central place in the universe/ map of that game, but i think with the incorporation of the 'time survey' inside the exploration data it would give explorers a form of action that would not just be 'how far away from alioth can you get' because that data could contain enemy troops or bases or mining posts.

 

It could even be put into a machine to compare that data from other data in the past to make up graphs and trends of the piece of data, so you can show how quickly somewhere is being mined or populated ect.

 

I don't think explorers are ever just 'go here and here and here' in any game i've played, they've always had something to do, even the 'explorers' or whatever they were in WoW had something to reward them and do for their wandering around.

 

I do have faith in NQ/DU to do this right... Seeing as they have a entire universe to play with and others only had a map

 

nora,

[KlatuSatori]

@Zen001

First of all, "go read history" is disrespectful and ignorant.  My post was not a comprehensive synopsis of Christopher Columbus's exploits.

 

Second, I agree what you are saying should and will be possible.  You want to settle somewhere new?  Go find a spot, somewhere in the unknown and settle there.  Nothing would stop anyone from doing that.  But "colonising" a place means you colonise it with real players who are a part of your organisation or a part of the organisation you are working for / are a part of.  You will not be able to populate any location with NPCs, because there will not be NPCs.

[Zen001]

@Zen001

First of all, "go read history" is disrespectful and ignorant.  My post was not a comprehensive synopsis of Christopher Columbus's exploits.

 

Second, I agree what you are saying should and will be possible.  You want to settle somewhere new?  Go find a spot, somewhere in the unknown and settle there.  Nothing would stop anyone from doing that.  But "colonising" a place means you colonise it with real players who are a part of your organisation or a part of the organisation you are working for / are a part of.  You will not be able to populate any location with NPCs, because there will not be NPCs.

What is disrespectful and ignorant is your statement: 'You seem to be confusing the act of exploration with the motivation for the act....' If you can assert that I am confused then I may respond that you are ignorant of what defines exploration and how it was historically achieved. What's more AI is artificial intelligence - equipment can contain AI as will computers. And whether it is AI or not isn't the point....it is the act of landing, laying claim and erecting equipment.