mark-o-solo Posted November 6, 2023 Share Posted November 6, 2023 I have done a tour of all the (creative) space games: star citizen, empyrion, space engineers, KSP, you name it, I've been there. DU is by far the most amazing, complex game out there. It is the best. In terms of multitude of things to do, the depth of building, permission system, materials, scenery, lighting, etc. Of course, there is still plenty of room to do better. For instance, the space brakes simply violate conservation of energy. I understand and respect your decision to make it a monthly billing model, @NQ-Admin. But that decision was taken close to ten years ago! In the name of the gaming community, in the name of bringing people onto this amazing game, in the name of more players and the future of DU: Please, pretty please shift to a purchase model instead of the monthly billing. I assure you, ALL of the friends I tried to get to play, including myself are scared off of this horrible model. To compensate, add a shop for skins and rare deco items like star citizen and others have it. Add the option to buy ships, etc. You will get the needed revenue by getting a flood of new players once you move away from the subscription model. New players, that, in turn will start purchasing skins and the likes from the shop. Hell, I would buy skins! Just please, get away from that trap, that horrible scarecrow of a subscription model. Cheers Ashron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blundertwink Posted November 6, 2023 Share Posted November 6, 2023 7 hours ago, mark-o-solo said: Please, pretty please shift to a purchase model instead of the monthly billing This has been suggested a few times through the forum's history, but the challenge is that changing the billing model doesn't suddenly make the game more marketable. To say it another way...if you can't get people to play the game at $14.99/month, you won't sell them just by changing the purchase model (likely even making it more expensive to try). Even if they went free to play, it doesn't change the math around retention. There's no reason to believe that simply changing the billing model will result in a "flood" of new players...that's not a claim any reasonable company can work from without evidence. If you or your friends really wanted to play the game so badly, you'd pay a sub and try it for a month. We're not talking about an Eve-level niche game that can change billing models and have some inertia, we're talking about a game with maybe 100 concurrent players a day at peak -- so it'd basically be starting from scratch...for an MMO that's already released with no future updates on the horizon...? All that being said...there's also no reason to believe you can just throw cash shop items into the game and make enough to sustain an sandbox MMO where costs are constantly growing over time in a way that traditional MMOs don't need to deal with. That takes study and time and deliberation, and I find it really hard to believe that you'd be so willing to buy cash shop items from a game when you aren't even willing to pay for a sub to try it...how can you know that you'd be so willing? What makes you think that simply changing the subscription model will make this game better to the point where it will attract a lot of customers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark-o-solo Posted November 6, 2023 Author Share Posted November 6, 2023 34 minutes ago, blundertwink said: This has been suggested a few times through the forum's history, but the challenge is that changing the billing model doesn't suddenly make the game more marketable. To say it another way...if you can't get people to play the game at $14.99/month, you won't sell them just by changing the purchase model (likely even making it more expensive to try). Even if they went free to play, it doesn't change the math around retention. There's no reason to believe that simply changing the billing model will result in a "flood" of new players...that's not a claim any reasonable company can work from without evidence. If you or your friends really wanted to play the game so badly, you'd pay a sub and try it for a month. We're not talking about an Eve-level niche game that can change billing models and have some inertia, we're talking about a game with maybe 100 concurrent players a day at peak -- so it'd basically be starting from scratch...for an MMO that's already released with no future updates on the horizon...? All that being said...there's also no reason to believe you can just throw cash shop items into the game and make enough to sustain an sandbox MMO where costs are constantly growing over time in a way that traditional MMOs don't need to deal with. That takes study and time and deliberation, and I find it really hard to believe that you'd be so willing to buy cash shop items from a game when you aren't even willing to pay for a sub to try it...how can you know that you'd be so willing? What makes you think that simply changing the subscription model will make this game better to the point where it will attract a lot of customers? Oh I believe there is a lot of evidence that people are scared off by the model itself. I could cite 15 people in my own circle that are just like that: They'd easily pay 30, hell, even 50 bucks to play the game. They would pay for shop items, etc. However, ALL of them are scare off the subscription model to the point they will not even give it a try. I myself got on DU by serendipity, a special set of favorable circumstances. I see your point with marketable. Yes, DU is very complex and it is a sandbox, that is not a large player base. But as I said, ask a 100 people why they are not on DU. 98 of them will tell you its the subscription model. Dragorion and Dynast 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyndle Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 Anecdotal Evidence, however plentiful, will only ever be anecdotal. You may know people who shy away from a subscription but that is not actionable from a corporate standpoint. Also, the numbers you're throwing out seem to contradict your own statements about "trying" the game. Comparing a $30-50 one time charge to a $15 game time code (no risk of forgetting the sub) suggests those people may be using cost as an excuse to not bother trying the game. I pre-paid a year sub for each of 3 accounts on the release hype (before the sub price increase) which only cost me a little more than Bethesda was asking for the supreme package of Starfield-loading-screens at pre-release a year later. Now that we're more than a year beyond the release of DU the real world economy is in much worse condition and DU development appears to be stalled out (how many total bullet points in the last several patch notes?). I love the flight engine and the building tools but there really isn't anything more being offered in DU IMO. I can get the same or better atmosphere flight from a slew of sims and while there's not a ton of space games DU isn't uncontested there either. As for building: Why should I slave over doing the work that other studios pay teams of artists to do? If RMT were in DU I could see an argument for earning a living through that effort but otherwise it's only an ego treadmill. I could see building just for artistic release and personal pleasure if there weren't so many chores and limitations tied to it. All of that said, and without touching on any of the controversies and bugs from the past, it doesn't look good for DU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atmosph3rik Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 The problem is that so much of the game's design depends on players committing to a subscription, and losing access to certain things if they stop. The big question is what would "owning the game" actually entitle someone to? Right now, you have to pay a sub to claim territory, and the longer you sub and train talents the more constructs you can deploy. And if you cancel then you lose HQ territories and constructs. If NQ sells the game for $30 or $50 how long can someone hold HQ territories? and how long does NQ leave their constructs in the game? I think MMOs are so popular because they're kind of like a country club. You pay extra to use their facilities, because they're well maintained, and there are other people there to enjoy them with or compete with. DU has a few really cool and unique features, but one of them is that you can use all the other features in a shared online space and compete or collaborate with other players for territory and resources. I don't think it's sustainable to sell permanent access to a shared space like that. But i also don't think it makes sense to sell memberships to a country club with almost no staff and no plans for the future. Bit of a catch 22 at this point. Whatever NQ decides to do, i think they would need to announce their intentions for the future of the game, or announce that they have intentions for the game to have a future, before they do anything else. Or it would be a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sHuRuLuNi Posted November 10, 2023 Share Posted November 10, 2023 On 11/6/2023 at 7:35 PM, mark-o-solo said: Oh I believe there is a lot of evidence that people are scared off by the model itself. ------------ But as I said, ask a 100 people why they are not on DU. 98 of them will tell you its the subscription model. Actually, there is something to this. I am a Ruby Founder and have paid hundreds of euros backing this game. But I would have NEVER paid a subscription. I just never do that. I have never and will never pay a subscription for a game. Don't ask me why, no idea. But I would have indeed been willing to pay for custom skins and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptLoRes Posted November 10, 2023 Share Posted November 10, 2023 If you pay money for something, you want to own it. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyndle Posted November 10, 2023 Share Posted November 10, 2023 6 hours ago, CptLoRes said: If you pay money for something, you want to own it. Simple as that. Now that you word it that way... ...a monthly rental fee to own digital goods is an oxymoronic concept. 'nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cerveau Posted November 11, 2023 Share Posted November 11, 2023 its standard for all MMOs, you do not own anything, you are paying for access to the game, in fact they own all the items on your character, and even your character, dont make the mistake of thinking you actually own anything. if they chose to, they could take it from you as they own it, this of course never happens unless you are being banned for something. Its in the TOS somewhere, as it is for all mmos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptLoRes Posted November 11, 2023 Share Posted November 11, 2023 Which is why I said "you want to own it". So it is not necessarily the end result, especially when it comes to digital products. But it is still a ingrained want most people have, and why subscription makes many people hesitate more then paying a one time sum. And I am old enough that I remember a time when once you payed, you would get software on a physical medium that you owned and that would never expire. Something you could even resell if you no longer needed it. Imagine that! And speaking on this topic. Big corp has been playing the long game for a while now, and have slowly but surly been training people to think that renting instead of owning is the norm (Neo-feudalism but with corp instead of government leading the charge). And the end result is everything becoming subscriptions based as people start to accept this, regardless of if it makes sense or not for the product in question. I.e BMW tried to charge a subscription for seat warmers in their cars, but that turned out to be one step to far. But give it a couple of years and they will try again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atmosph3rik Posted November 11, 2023 Share Posted November 11, 2023 4 hours ago, CptLoRes said: Which is why I said "you want to own it". So it is not necessarily the end result, especially when it comes to digital products. But it is still a ingrained want most people have, and why subscription makes many people hesitate more then paying a one time sum. And I am old enough that I remember a time when once you payed, you would get software on a physical medium that you owned and that would never expire. Something you could even resell if you no longer needed it. Imagine that! And speaking on this topic. Big corp has been playing the long game for a while now, and have slowly but surly been training people to think that renting instead of owning is the norm (Neo-feudalism but with corp instead of government leading the charge). And the end result is everything becoming subscriptions based as people start to accept this, regardless of if it makes sense or not for the product in question. I.e BMW tried to charge a subscription for seat warmers in their cars, but that turned out to be one step to far. But give it a couple of years and they will try again.. When someone really wants something that they can't have, businesses are often tempted to just sell them whatever they do have, and tell them they are getting the thing that they wanted. To me that's what NQ would be doing if they sold the game as is. I would rather have a game company be honest and tell me that if i keep paying them, they will keep giving me access to their product. Rather than telling me i own the product, and as long as someone keeps giving them money maybe i'll still have access to the product. I don't like signing up for reoccurring charges either. Especially when it's with a shady 3rd party company that makes it hard to cancel. NQ was supposed to implement the DAC system, so it was possible to access the game without that level of commitment too. The first time i agreed to pay a subscription for an MMO i was giving my private info to SONY. I think a lot of people would be more inclined to sign up for a reoccurring charge if it was with the same company that was selling the game. Or at least a company that they trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugesV Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 Pretty sure NQ would be happy if you donated a couple tens of millions of dollars to them to provide the game for free to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestis Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 FWIW, if your business model consisted of a subscription of less than $10 per month, I'd still be playing DU but at approx $20 per month it's too expensive so I have found other games that are less than $10 per month. You could so easily have a cheap subscription or zero subscription for just the basic game with extras we have to pay to be able to do. At the moment you are getting nothing from me and I'm not playing so offering me double talent points just isn't going to get me back. If you offered players like me who have left half a year or more ago, a six month sub for $10 per month, I'd come back and so might others. Just giving you feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muhadmananda Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 well before anything they would have to actually develop the game...tbh it all looks more like the server will get shut down soonish with there being no momentum from novaquark at all. optimistically thinking they could be working on a bigger update but i kinda doubt it sadly...DU could have been a great game but they really rammed it in the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCOne Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Interesting thread and ideas. Personally I enjoy making the ships in DU and really enjoyed overcoming the flight and transition to space mechanics. I continue playing (currently) in the hopes I'll get to make better ship designs at some point. I find the main negative at the moment is the chores that have been added to the game - weekly / twice weekly scans for mining units and the taxes. Between these two all my casual time for the game is taken up and I see next to no increase in my DU wallet to buy more ship parts (except on sale month). So to be honest I think they have the PVP and safe zone play balance wrong because I cannot see any new players even getting to the part of the game I enjoy without years of 'trying' the game. So if nothing else I hope they make changes to these aspects of the game. As for the ownership issues mentioned above I think the ship exporter is probably the correct way to deal with this, since all I personally really care about is the ship designs. The ship exporter perfectly allows me to print 3D models - or will do once I get around to buying a 3D printer. Though I do wonder if NQ should have added a shop for printing our ships for us and then sending them to us from their website. Obviously we would pay for the printing, where the cost depended on print size and postage etc. I am sure this would be a safer way to increase their income a little. Could even be the income that makes the difference for DU. Anyway still hoping the game works out in the long run 🤞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-=DWM=- Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 At this point, they can better add a PayPal button with the quote, "Buy us a coffee to keep the server running." 😏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyndle Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 I'm wondering if there was a Discord announcement or something I missed? Steam connections earlier were at 2 with a 24 hour peak of 13. Maybe it's too late for the coffee button? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meekko Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 I have to agree with a business model change. My group, including me, have stopped playing after the second month of official release. We felt that even though we enjoyed the building and factory portion of the game, there was just nothing else. Yes we could go out and search for pvp for hours or go on "high staked" mining missions but no excitement ever came from it. I find the biggest issue with a monthly sub is the lack of tools given to players to keep the player driven world going. To add onto that, the PvP could be better by having announced events with a certain time that players can go to and fight over resources. Not everyone would participate because of the potential loss of a ship but it's an idea. Just a little rant but making a monthly sub worth it is a big reason why we can't come back. If it was F2P or B2P with a shop, I personally would be coming back instantly to play with the building once more. I can't justify paying 15 a month for me to play in my factory just for no one to buy my stuff or for no one to come see what I built. Something needs to change and maybe the payment model isn't it, but something needs to change to get the player driven game back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarcata Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 On 11/6/2023 at 10:56 AM, mark-o-solo said: I understand and respect your decision to make it a monthly billing model, @NQ-Admin. But that decision was taken close to ten years ago! In the name of the gaming community, in the name of bringing people onto this amazing game, in the name of more players and the future of DU: Please, pretty please shift to a purchase model instead of the monthly billing. I assure you, ALL of the friends I tried to get to play, including myself are scared off of this horrible model. NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyndle Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 I played WoW for many years so the subscription model was and still is not what keeps me away. The steam numbers tell a similar story. The naked treadmill and tiny community (compared to just about any other MMO) hurt DU. I still haven't found any other game (or non-game) that scratches the building itch as well but that alone isn't enough. The factory aspect wasn't my thing but it pushed me to try a few factory building games; DU fell short. As much as I yearn to return I can't with the game lacking active development. I sincerely hope it gets sold to a team that can breathe life back into the dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now