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Open-World or instance PvE: Critical Decision for DUniverse Future


Surlick

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Hey Novaquark Team,

As an enthusiastic player of DU, I really have to tell you that you have a chance to turn things around and lead the game to the success road again. I've heard that you're planning new PvE content, and I'm begging you to not have it take place in instances, but rather in the open game world!

From a game design perspective, there are several reasons why it makes little sense to put certain content into instances, especially in a game like DU, which focuses on an open game world:
 

  1. Artificial separation of player experiences: Instances can create an artificial separation of player experiences by interrupting the smooth transition between different aspects of the game. This can lead to the game feeling less coherent and less engaging, as players feel like they are switching between isolated, disconnected areas rather than playing in a cohesive world.

  2. Loss of emergence and unpredictability: One of the main advantages of an open game world is the ability to experience emergent and unpredictable events that arise from the interplay of various game mechanics and player interactions. Instances can limit this emergence and unpredictability by creating controlled, closed environments that provide less room for spontaneous encounters and interactions.

  3. Reduced social interaction: In an open world, social interactions and shared player experiences are an important aspect of the game. Instances can restrict these social elements by separating players into isolated areas where they may have fewer opportunities to meet and interact with other players.

  4. Restricted dynamics of the game world: Instances can limit the dynamics of the game world by isolating events and challenges within confined areas. This minimizes the impact of these events on the entire game world and on players who do not participate in the instance. An open world, on the other hand, allows the effects of events and challenges to spread throughout the game, creating a more dynamic and vibrant game world.

  5. Repetition and monotony: Instances can cause the game to become monotonous and repetitive, as they often rely on pre-built scenarios and predetermined sequences. In an open world, however, players have the opportunity to constantly discover new and diverse experiences resulting from the interplay of game mechanics and interactions with other players.
     

Overall, embedding content into instances in a game like Dual Universe, which focuses on an open game world and shared player experiences, can hinder the player experience and lead to the game being less engaging, dynamic, and interesting.

This could truly be a turning point for Dual Universe. The decision whether to turn things around and make the game successful or remain stuck in your current thought patterns could make all the difference. If you don't opt for an open-world solution, challenging times for Dual Universe may lie ahead. You have the opportunity to create a lively and successful gaming environment that keeps players engaged in the long run.

Surlick-Zek
 

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The mechanics of how this will work have been known for several weeks. There won't be instances, technically, but on accepting the mission you will be teleported to the region in the open game world where your target is, and returned when you complete the mission (or die). This will likely be very, very far from anything else. So effectively an instance, but technically not. 

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5 hours ago, Surlick said:

As an enthusiastic player of DU, I really have to tell you that you have a chance to turn things around and lead the game to the success road again. I've heard that you're planning new PvE content, and I'm begging you to not have it take place in instances, but rather in the open game world!

 

When someone tells you that an MMO "has PvE", they don't expect a singular PvE mission like this...even if the combat model for DU had mass-appeal, this implementation of PvE won't likely be enough to turn things around. 

 

Also, you have to understand the purpose of instances -- yes, it "creates an artificial separation between players". That's literally the point.

 

That's why NQ is doing it as they are -- to separate players.

 

As years of gameplay has shown over and over, battles do not scale well when there's lots of people. Regardless of NQ's "cheapness" with hardware, this will always be true. Despite them being called "massively multiplayer", there's a reason most MMOs use instances and shards and design the game to limit the number of players sharing the same space at the same time.

 

These are physical limits in how infra works and scales. There's no getting around it with today's level of technology. 

 

This is why the vision of a single-shard "emergent" sandbox MMO was so flawed from the start. Asking NQ to "not limit" players in this way is ignoring the fundamental mechanics of how MMOs work and why these limits exist to begin with...especially for a small studio that didn't stand their own hardware or design their own engine. 

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Short version.

NQ loves mini games.

 

Longer version:

DU is a single shard emergent community based MMO based in a persistent world, that will isolate players away with instances so that they don't risk running into the rest of the community and experience any kind of emergent behavior while playing..

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Instances are a common addition to open-world PvE content in most games, and there is a good reason for it. Instances have physical locations inside those  worlds. Implementing PvE missions like this in a player-driven world does not make any sense without some requirements first. Dual Universe needs to change and evolve its world building, rather than rely on pointless PvE content that rewards players with Quanta through virtual reality. I doubt I will participate in this content more than a few times, and many others feel the same. In my player community, we are not interested in another Quanta farming mechanic.

I believe that unless NQ understands the need to improve their world, Dual Universe will continue to decline. They need to take action now and provide PvE spots to explore in the open world, roaming fleets and NPC pirates, NPC haulers with guards, caves, and hidden structures on planets, asteroids, and moons to explore and earn achievements for cosmetic rewards. They should also add PvE content with direct warp beacons both inside and outside PvP zones.

This should be the ultimate goal. If Dual Universe includes all of these features, they can still create instances for some fast gameplay. But we need to create an interesting world.

Edited by Surlick
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14 minutes ago, Surlick said:

Instances are a common addition to open-world PvE content in most games, and there is a good reason for it. Instances have physical locations inside those  worlds.

 

Except that this isn't why instances exist in MMOs...it is driven by performance and consistently with game balance/design far more than anything else. It has nothing to do with the physical location or the theme / style of the game. The purpose is very much practical, as you can read about in the brief wikipedia article describing their history. 

 

16 minutes ago, Surlick said:

They need to take action now and provide PvE spots to explore in the open world, roaming fleets and NPC pirates, NPC haulers with guards, caves, and hidden structures on planets, asteroids, and moons to explore and earn achievements for cosmetic rewards. They should also add PvE content with direct warp beacons both inside and outside PvP zones.

 

This seems naive to me, though...you're just saying they need to "build a complete PvE experience like most MMOs"...that's not realistic, even if DU was the tiny studio's main project (which it isn't). 

 

I agree 100% that DU isn't a complete experience (or even close to it), but expecting them to do anything even close to what you've described is not reasonable.

 

At a certain point you have to accept that DU is what it is -- it isn't going to evolve much and it isn't going to come anywhere close to what you've imagined.

 

NQ doesn't expect people to play it forever, they know that DU isn't ever going to be viable commercially. That's why they are building an FTP style game, instead, and trying hard to recruit for it. Unfortunately, players come here thinking that NQ is working on DU as their main priority and investing resources into improving it, but that just isn't likely the case. 

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Quote

Except that this isn't why instances exist in MMOs...it is driven by performance and consistently with game balance/design far more than anything else. It has nothing to do with the physical location or the theme / style of the game. The purpose is very much practical, as you can read about in the brief wikipedia article describing their history.

I have firsthand experience with the initial implementation of instances in MMOs, so I understand their history very well. However, I believe there was some misunderstanding in our previous conversation. Specifically, my point was not about why instances are included in games, but rather how they should be incorporated as part of the game world.

In my opinion, instances should be integrated into the game world seamlessly rather than feeling like separate, disconnected content, . For example, PvE spots could be found while exploring the open world, and players could encounter roaming fleets or NPC pirates while traveling between different areas. Additionally, hidden structures and caves on planets, asteroids, and moons could offer exciting exploration opportunities.
 

By incorporating PvE content directly into the game world, players would feel more immersed and engaged in the overall gameplay experience. This approach would require a focus on improving the game's world building, rather than simply relying on instances as a separate game feature.

If instances are necessary for server stability, it does not necessarily mean that they have to be disconnected from the game world. Even if instances are needed, they can still be integrated seamlessly into the game world. This would allow players to access instances in a way that feels natural and immersive, rather than feeling like a separate gameplay experience. By incorporating instances into the game world, players can still enjoy the benefits of both stability and seamless gameplay.

 

Quote

This seems naive to me, though...you're just saying they need to "build a complete PvE experience like most MMOs"...that's not realistic, even if DU was the tiny studio's main project (which it isn't). 

I want to clarify that I never stated that Dual Universe would have all the features I mentioned quickly, nor did I suggest that they would be available soon. I love DU in its current state, but I also believe that the game needs more content and a revitalized world to achieve commercial success.

There is a common joke among players that NQ will only begin adding content after the game's release, instead of focusing on the basics during development. However, if NQ continues to work hard and not give up, the only reasonable way forward is to enhance the game's world-building and add meaningful content over time. This approach could ensure the game's long-term success and player engagement.

 

Quote

NQ doesn't expect people to play it forever, they know that DU isn't ever going to be viable commercially. That's why they are building an FTP style game, instead, and trying hard to recruit for it. Unfortunately, players come here thinking that NQ is working on DU as their main priority and investing resources into improving it, but that just isn't likely the case. 

If NQ adds substantial content and revitalizes the game world, they could potentially transition to free-to-play and regain success. However, I find it disheartening to suggest that players should not expect too much from DU because NQ has not prioritized the game. It seems like a resignation or acceptance of mediocrity.

Instead, I believe that players should continue to express their desire for a better game and push NQ to fulfill their promises of improving the game. With dedication and hard work, NQ could make DU a truly exceptional game, that last a long time, with a vibrant community of players.

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15 hours ago, Surlick said:

However, I find it disheartening to suggest that players should not expect too much from DU because NQ has not prioritized the game. It seems like a resignation or acceptance of mediocrity.

 

It's an acceptance of reality, though -- and worth pointing out to new players that might think they are signing up for a growing/sustainable MMO. If they are going to pay a monthly fee, it's worth knowing that NQ's main focus is on another game project.

 

NQ is too small a studio to meaningfully multitask. This new project isn't some conspiracy, it's been something they've mentioned multiple times in the past year. They literally have job postings active talking about it. 

 

To be clear, I'm not saying people shouldn't try the game. There's plenty of people who love DU as it is and it's well worth the small sub for them -- that's great. But...having reasonable expectations about the future is not a "resignation", it's just pragmatic. 

 

It doesn't matter how people try to push their love of DU (or what DU could be) -- the idea that DU could achieve commercial success is implausible to me and NQ seems to agree. They aren't dumb, they knew it was a "moonshot" (in their own words). 

 

We're talking about a product that has hundreds of DAUs if that (averaging ~70 on Steam nowadays) -- they'd need to 1,000x their player base just to approach a ballpark of sustainability and growth (considering churn). That'd require years and years of dev on top of 8 years of past development. It would take more than words to change their own outlook, they'd need to see a change in stats. 

 

If they couldn't get there in the last 8 years, I don't see how it's realistic to expect any major changes with an even smaller team and less time...and as you've pointed out, without those changes, there will be no growth. 

 

I get that it's frustrating because DU has "great potential", but it isn't defeatism. I admire people that are still optimistic about the product in spite of all this, but it's a really hard sell when not only does the game need to bounce back dramatically, the devs themselves need to be convinced that it's worth it! 

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CCP makes of NQ biggest source of content started with just 21 employees, point being you do not need millions of people to make a game.

what CCP had was properly actual game making experiences and above all an actual plan they followed through on.

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On 4/19/2023 at 4:11 AM, Distinct Mint said:

The mechanics of how this will work have been known for several weeks. There won't be instances, technically, but on accepting the mission you will be teleported to the region in the open game world where your target is, and returned when you complete the mission (or die). This will likely be very, very far from anything else. So effectively an instance, but technically not. 

If that's true, and it is instanced PVE as you've described... I have even less interest in coming back. 

 

Instancing makes sense for some things, but... not using it to add life to the existing game world and just cornering it off like that... is lame. 

 

I can envision escort missions, transport missions (with NPC pirate attacks in safe space on flagged targets with said mission), and hunt/kill gameplay taking place inside the safe zone...  a true stepping stone to PVP. 

 

Anything less that that is a waste of both player and developer time. 

Edited by BlindingBright
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This looks to be is some kind of fixed Player-vs-Challenge type of deal. So basically just an extension on the existing tutorial/challenge system in the game.

 

PVE on the other hand as the name implies, is embedding different types of challenges into the actual game environment so that there is a risk and reward system that makes it fun and exciting for players to explore the world. And exploration was supposed to be one of the main pillars of the game btw..

 

But this has nothing of that.. and looks to be just another example of NQ doing some half-assed feature implementation like with so many other parts of the game.

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1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

This looks to be is some kind of fixed Player-vs-Challenge type of deal. So basically just an extension on the existing tutorial/challenge system in the game.

 

PVE on the other hand as the name implies, is embedding different types of challenges into the actual game environment so that there is a risk and reward system that makes it fun and exciting for players to explore the world. And exploration was supposed to be one of the main pillars of the game btw..

 

But this has nothing of that.. and looks to be just another example of NQ doing some half-assed feature implementation like with so many other parts of the game.

I wish we had the game as originally pitched. What we have now 6? Months after release are some updates that should have been at launch... and a planet that we has in Beta. 

 

Game is still missing most of the game world from Beta. I can't believe I can honestly say their was more to do in game a year and a half ago. 

 

And they're giving players challenge PVE missions? 

 

I'm sorry, if your investing your time into this game that NQ has already abandoned... I'm sorry. My tune would be much more supportive if NQ had doubled down and tried to make DU into something great vs abandoning it on release. 

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16 hours ago, BlindingBright said:

My tune would be much more supportive if NQ had doubled down and tried to make DU into something great vs abandoning it on release. 

 

Well, ''release'' was made exactly to abandon the game. Like, here, guys, enjoy, development finished.

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NQ did "double down" for something like 4 years, but they got nowhere. And the "release" is pretty much just NQ giving up and doing a release regardless of the game state.

 

Why they got nowhere beside the obvious ignoring feedback stuff, is something we can only speculate on. And it is my hope that when NQ collapse, that some former employee will come clean and tell the inside story.

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I think instances could have a place in DU.  For newer players it can be a punishing game, and being able to test things out in an environment where you won't lose anything if you crash or get blown up could be a good thing.

 

The biggest issue for me with the flight challenges is that i can't use my own ship.  And i can't use any of my piloting talents.  This is a building game, and an RPG.  So as a fan of both of those types of games, if i've spent the last week training skills, and building an awesome new ship, or saving up to buy one.  When i play the game, i want to be able to use those things.

 

A lot of other MMO's use instances successfully.  But i think the key is that in a game that's about progress, you need to be able to bring your progress into the instance.  Or it's just a separate mini game.

 

 

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On 4/23/2023 at 7:46 PM, CptLoRes said:

Why they got nowhere beside the obvious ignoring feedback stuff, is something we can only speculate on. And it is my hope that when NQ collapse, that some former employee will come clean and tell the inside story.

 

One can expect story of disconnected leadership with unrealistic goals, endlessly leaving/joining people, most of work on shoulders of poorly paid interns/juniors who shoved into complex badly documented tech they not understand (leaving even more undocumented mess), no lead programmer capable to organize something viable... Then money dried up.

 

Starbase recently got some of such revelations, and it was more or less this.

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I can't stop wondering, why the PvE part, at least the exploration, is not done like in Worlds Adrift. The tools are here, the community motivation is here... Worlds Adrift didn't have much in terms of gameplay, but the exploration was one of the major pillars and it worked. How did they do it? They let their community build the things to explore, in the form of player built and very creative islands, and a great deal of puzzles.

 

So why not? give the players an environment (like the PTS or the Steam-Demo world), give them an asteroid as a base, some L-cores and unlimited amount of materials, and let them build hundreds of exploration sites. Then do some QA and put some loot at the end of the puzzle, on a weekly timer or something, so it doesn't get farmed indefinetly. Add some PvE-ships at the sites that respawn at some point. Scatter the sites somewhere in safe and PvP space and let players search for them, build maps, calculate META-farming-routes, make ambushes, etc.

 

It's not like it's not being done on a smaller scale, with speeders, outposts, museums, and such...

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23 minutes ago, enjeyy said:

I can't stop wondering, why the PvE part, at least the exploration, is not done like in Worlds Adrift. The tools are here, the community motivation is here... Worlds Adrift didn't have much in terms of gameplay, but the exploration was one of the major pillars and it worked. How did they do it? They let their community build the things to explore, in the form of player built and very creative islands, and a great deal of puzzles.

 

So why not? give the players an environment (like the PTS or the Steam-Demo world), give them an asteroid as a base, some L-cores and unlimited amount of materials, and let them build hundreds of exploration sites. Then do some QA and put some loot at the end of the puzzle, on a weekly timer or something, so it doesn't get farmed indefinetly. Add some PvE-ships at the sites that respawn at some point. Scatter the sites somewhere in safe and PvP space and let players search for them, build maps, calculate META-farming-routes, make ambushes, etc.

 

First off, giving players the tools to build without limits doesn't work for a persistent MMO. Perhaps it never will.

 

Worlds Adrift is a great example of this reality -- the main reason cited for why it shut down was a lack of commercial viability.

 

It didn't have much in terms of gameplay, but the technicals backing what they did were far from trivial. They designed their own cloud-based OS to power this game...and that scale came from its ability to run across hundreds or thousands of servers.

 

This made them far more expensive than a "theme park" MMO, but the creative / sandbox gameplay leads to drastically less retention over time. A combination of low retention and constantly increasing costs makes for a bad time. 

 

This isn't a viable product model, and we've seen similar with DU. So...even if they did all this, the road leads to the exact same place: it isn't a concept that works as a product, especially with NQ's comparably cruder technicals.  

 

Second, this would require a lot of effort on NQ's part, and that's impossible when your primary focus is on a different game project than DU!

 

Considering it's taken them over 8 years to implement what will be a very, very basic PvE mission, this is not some quick and easy thing they could slap together even if they wanted, regardless of the economics not making sense. 

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@blundertwink It was just a constructive suggestion... It was never meant to let players build without limits, that's why I suggested a non-production environment for the builds and a QA.

 

Btw. the Worlds Adrift Devs didn't design their QS, they used another company's OS (SpatialOS) and that was one of the primary reasons for their troubles. But let's not derail the topic and rather look for solutions instead of problems.

 

peace

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13 hours ago, enjeyy said:

But let's not derail the topic and rather look for solutions instead of problems.

That is the problem with DU in a nutshell, but not in the way you think.

 

We the community have been looking for and suggesting workable solutions to in-game problems for many, many years now.

And the problem has always been that NQ has either not acted on them, or implemented something completely different (usually some half way quick fix) that would only partly solve problems and at the same time introduce new ones.

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