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[Suggestion] DU Needs Food


Oblivionburn

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I know this idea has been thrown around a bit and there's older topics discussing the matter, but allow me to propose an argument before spamming this with messages about how annoying food mechanics are in games...

 

The core of this argument is simple: there's no reason to build anything except vehicles and factories, because they're the only things that serve a purpose in the game... none of which is even a real necessity that anyone has to do, it's simply done because there's nothing else to do (for the majority). Sure, we could build houses and cities and all this stuff we usually call "civilization", but we don't and we won't... because all that "civilization" stuff in real life mostly revolves around storing food, purchasing food, and places to consume food at. In history, the invention of agriculture is what really kick-started the rise of civilization as we know it since it created the need for things like trade, markets, and currency by virtue of having a growing supply that's in high demand (because you die if you don't have it).

 

Pros of introducing food into the game:
- More ways to play the game and things to do (e.g. agriculture, businesses serving food, businesses storing food, processing food, shipping food, etc)

- Reasons for factories that don't revolve around vehicles (e.g. processing raw food into products and a legit need for building supplies for storing food)

- Guaranteed essential supply chains when everybody needs food and not everywhere is capable of growing it

- A reason to build houses, cantinas, taverns, warehouses, grocery stores, and ultimately cities since survival elements like food create a demand for that stuff when people want to be close to where the needed supply is

- More social content and places to gather/hang at (e.g. I'm sure some of us would love to build some Mos Eisley-esque cantinas on not-so-habitable-planets for shady deals to go down at)

- Long voyages needing to be planned with food stocks in mind and supplying multi-crew vessels with enough food for everyone (yes this is a Pro because it adds to the complexity of travel which makes things more interesting... thus more "gameplay")

- Spaceships and buildings actually having a reason to have things like a mess halls, kitchens, dining rooms, bathrooms (makes more sense to roleplay bathrooms when there's consumeables), must-have storage that's not just for hauling shipments, or even something as simple as a table and chairs for people to congregate around for meals (more roleplaying stuff)

- Wars fought over soil rich planets/territories, because food has real value as a nessecity and thus is always high in demand... if you control the food supply, you control the people

- Pirates can disrupt food supply chains and cause a very noticeable effect on whoever the supply was intended for, which gives a reason for groups to form to protect the transporting of food and thus more gameplay

- "Food" doesn't even have to be limited to just things you eat and can easily be expanded to all sorts of consumeables once the basic "Consume Item" foundation code is there, which opens up all sorts of avenues for more content, gameplay, and roleplaying (e.g. beverages, healing items, poisons, etc, etc)

- Tons of things I'm sure I haven't even thought of yet that arise simply from a resource being a necessity and not merely in demand because players are bored

 

Cons of having food in the game:

- You occassionally have to consume an item and some people find that annoying

 

 

In Summary, DU is boring and lifeless compared to what it could be simply by adding food.

 

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I think maybe they had the right idea in shutting down the "ideas" section. At least partly. Their priority "should" be:

1. Finish the announced feature set (y'know, little jobs like AvA, TW).

2. Iterate the existing feature set to make an interesting game.

3. Add new features.

 

Ideas for how to do the first two are relevant. The third, less so.

 

5 hours ago, Jinxed said:

Farming, both arable and pastoral, were suggested more than half a decade ago. 
 

not gonna happen at this point. 
 

Then again, they've just announced PvE, which was also "never gonna happen"... So who knows?

 

 

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8 hours ago, Kezzle said:

Then again, they've just announced PvE, which was also "never gonna happen"... So who knows?

 

Are they actually adding "PvE", though?

 

There's a world of difference between "the game has PvE" as every MMO gamer understands it and "there's one PvE mission", which is what it will actually be. 

 

PvE is more than the mechanical ability to "do combat" against mobs. Don't get me wrong, this is still a big improvement...but it would be a huge stretch to then say that "DU has PvE" as if it has the same level of PvE as any other MMO.  

 

But back to the topic of food....

 

The OP is suggesting this because the game has such a profound lack of feature / content depth. That's the underlying issue, that "there's nothing to do".

 

One PvE mission won't change that. 

 

Would "food" solve this...? I don't know, maybe, but there's many easier ways that NQ could improve feature depth and they've truly not shown any interest or capacity to do this in the last 8 years.

 

The last couple years of updates have entirely been focused on revisiting things they've already done, with one exception for "space territory war" in the form of alien cores. 

 

Even their "roadmap" is just revisiting things they've already done -- one new mission type, new planets when in the beginning they talked about countless solar systems, joystick input support...? 

 

DU needs food? Unsure that's true...but DU does need content depth so it feels like there's "something to do" and that just isn't going to happen anytime soon.

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43 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

Are they actually adding "PvE", though?

 

2 hours ago, Jinxed said:

Just because they announce something doesn’t mean it’s going to happen.

 

 

Quote

We had decided early in the life of Dual Universe not to focus on a PvE combat system, given other priorities. With all of the feedback we’ve received since the beginning of the game, PvE combat has consistently remained a highly requested feature from our community. We always try to listen to your feedback, and I’m happy to announce that we have begun work on implementing the first iteration of a PvE combat system into the game!

We’re planning the first version to be a PvE mission system that takes players into combat in their ships. The missions will scale in size to allow all players (solo or part of a larger group) to participate.

For those missing my point: see the emphasised portion of the quote from Deckard's announcement. They have announced that this decision has been undecided. What other decisions will they undecide? And how far will they go? Magnitude and competence of execution isn't relevant.

My confidence that the game will be something I'll want to play in the future (low) hasn't been raised one iota by this announcement, but it's peripherally interesting to watch the twisting and turning of the stricken.

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I don't see how PvE is relevant to the topic of Food or its vast potential to motivate/stimulate more "play" in the "game".

Pessimistic skepticism doesn't particularly seem relevant either, unless you really have nothing else to bring to this discussion? Why even bother replying to it then?

Counter points/arguments or other ideas to expand on the concept would be more productive.

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8 hours ago, blundertwink said:

The OP is suggesting this because the game has such a profound lack of feature / content depth. That's the underlying issue, that "there's nothing to do".

 

One PvE mission won't change that. 

 

Would "food" solve this...? I don't know, maybe, but there's many easier ways that NQ could improve feature depth and they've truly not shown any interest or capacity to do this in the last 8 years.

 

The last couple years of updates have entirely been focused on revisiting things they've already done, with one exception for "space territory war" in the form of alien cores. 

 

Even their "roadmap" is just revisiting things they've already done -- one new mission type, new planets when in the beginning they talked about countless solar systems, joystick input support...? 

 

DU needs food? Unsure that's true...but DU does need content depth so it feels like there's "something to do" and that just isn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

This isn't just about feature depth or things to do, but about motivating gameplay by virtue of necessity. A survival element of gameplay demands/requires things be done to deal with the need to survive, else perish. The threat of death, or at least the annoyance of non-permanent death, can be a big motivator to get people moving, trading, and taking action to avoid it. Plus it presents more obstacles to overcome, which is really what most gameplay is about in video games... accomplishing things and overcoming challenges. The fact that it would also encourage most of the stuff to get built that we all actually want to see in the game is just icing on the cake.

So yes, I very much think DU needs food. I think it's the one thing missing (besides more players) that would bring the original vision of "civilization" to fruition.

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No one likes having to eat something every 5 minutes. Having to eat food in games is annoying.  And pretty hard to balance between hardcore and casual players.  Creating more of a job in game. (although many of the changes in the last year have created that job like gameplay, so what would one more thing like food be?) 

 

Alternatively I do think there is a chance for NQ to make money here.  Vending machines that use real money, and are paid for by real sponsors.  You know go buy yourself a Mountain Dew from the vending machine and get a max speed boost for 24 hours. 

 

Beyond that I have suggested food before. But not as an item that players consume. As a commodity that players grow to sell to markets. With only certain foods being grown on certain planets. And players grow those foods and sell them at markets on other planets. Which can be a good new player activity, all the way up to food baron activity.  Taking this further, By players meeting all the requirements of a local market. that market or that planet would receive some sort of boost. 

 

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The game is tedious enough for me without adding survival elements to it.

 

However, boosters and stims would be very useful and relevant if they add player HP for AvA. Consumables crafted by players that give avatar physical trait boosts, “focus” boosts that up hit % using weapons/weapon elements, first aid kits (duh), HP buffs, xp boosts, etc - pretty standard fare.

 

Could even add a fallout like withdrawal system, with detox consumables. Or hell , make it to where it wears off after resting in a bed x amount of time.

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15 hours ago, Oblivionburn said:

This isn't just about feature depth or things to do, but about motivating gameplay by virtue of necessity.

 

That's...an interesting theory of game design.

 

The challenge with motivating gameplay "by virtue of necessity" is that in general, players dislike being "forced". 

 

Consider a classic game like Mario, because it's often used as an example of quality game design.

 

You can complete the level as quickly as you want or barely finish within the time limit...you can care about points or power-ups or ignore them. The only thing you're "forced" to do is complete the level without dying. 

 

This is what creates engagement -- if you were forced to stop and eat every now and then, it might "give you something to do", but in the same way as busy work. It isn't something you want to do, it's something you have to do. 

 

Having gameplay or activities doesn't automatically mean those activities are engaging, which is the core goal of good design...not fidelity to real life. 

 

There's an infinite number of ways to create feature depth and engagement without having to force people to eat or starve.

 

It's easy to brainstorm about all the little things they could add "if only food were a thing", but this would be a huge undertaking for a studio with very limited resources that has shown very little willingness to introduce new features in general...

 

You can list some of the same integration points with something like energy production -- how it could encourage x/y/z dependencies between players and create new markets or promote "civilization" if done in x/y/z way....but no matter how you boil it down, it's a pipe dream because NQ doesn't want to make new features. 

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2 hours ago, blundertwink said:

 

That's...an interesting theory of game design.

 

The challenge with motivating gameplay "by virtue of necessity" is that in general, players dislike being "forced". 

 

Consider a classic game like Mario, because it's often used as an example of quality game design.

 

You can complete the level as quickly as you want or barely finish within the time limit...you can care about points or power-ups or ignore them. The only thing you're "forced" to do is complete the level without dying. 

 

This is what creates engagement -- if you were forced to stop and eat every now and then, it might "give you something to do", but in the same way as busy work. It isn't something you want to do, it's something you have to do. 

 

Having gameplay or activities doesn't automatically mean those activities are engaging, which is the core goal of good design...not fidelity to real life. 

 

There's an infinite number of ways to create feature depth and engagement without having to force people to eat or starve.

 

It's easy to brainstorm about all the little things they could add "if only food were a thing", but this would be a huge undertaking for a studio with very limited resources that has shown very little willingness to introduce new features in general...

 

You can list some of the same integration points with something like energy production -- how it could encourage x/y/z dependencies between players and create new markets or promote "civilization" if done in x/y/z way....but no matter how you boil it down, it's a pipe dream because NQ doesn't want to make new features. 

 

I think you might be fixating on the perspective of an isolated/single-player experience instead of considering the bigger picture of how large groups of people interact with systems. While you, as a single individual, may view it simply as the annoyance of having to consume an item once a day, the grander scale of the matter is the forming of cities, essential trade routes, business empires, and large scale efforts of growing/processing/shipping a needed product to remote areas as not everyone can, or will, crowd around epicenters of the supply. It's the desired state of the game we all wish to see, and it's not going to get there with the current systems/design because none of what you can currently do is actually needed for anything. Building a vehicle or a decorative build can be fun at first, but there's no built-in purpose for any of it long-term... there's nothing to sustain in the game other than the avoidment of boredom and that's not enough to retain players and continually encourage engagement with the existing systems in the game.

Mario is not a sufficient comparison... this is an mmo, not a single-player game.

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Please jump through these hoops, with these spinning plates, failure to do so will result in the shock-collar activating...

 

From my perspective: The amount of forced systems and imposed limits is already at a dangerously high level. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it bores away new players. People like me, who've been here since beta launch have seen a massively different DU, that has been reduced to a collection of limits, less flexibility, everything just less. I'm still here due to a certain level of DU addiction... Adding more 'make do' stuff without any purpose is just not going to make DU any more fun...

 

IF food was a bonus mechanic for ALL aspects of DU gameplay, then maybe it could be an interesting addition.

 

We still have the 'power' system somewhere on the horizon to further limit us...

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7 minutes ago, Oblivionburn said:

this is an mmo, not a single-player game.

Yes it's an MMO, but also a game, not a life sim... If we have food, the shitter we've got in DU then needs to actually work, you also want realistic plumbing in ships and bases? Because that would give you something 'to do'...

 

If you want to look for a DU equivalent for food, then look no further then ORE. We can 'grow'/collect it in multiple ways, we 'consume' it, we can buy/trade it. Some tiles are richer then others... And while some people do (Asteroid) mining as a group activity, most certainly do not! Adding food to DU doesn't suddenly make it a more social game.

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5 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

Adding more 'make do' stuff without any purpose is just not going to make DU any more fun

 

There being no purpose to any of it is exactly the problem I'm pointing out. The game needs something that is actually needed and serves a purpose.

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47 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

Yes it's an MMO, but also a game, not a life sim

lol DU is very much a sandbox/sim mmo... and it's failing to do the one thing that keeps people playing, which is providing some baseline reason to do anything at all.

 

47 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

If we have food, the shitter we've got in DU then needs to actually work, you also want realistic plumbing in ships and bases? Because that would give you something 'to do'

Unrealistic extremes don't make for reasonable arguments. It just makes it look like you can't think of a reasonable counter-point.

 

47 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

If you want to look for a DU equivalent for food, then look no further then ORE. We can 'grow'/collect it in multiple ways, we 'consume' it, we can buy/trade it. Some tiles are richer then others... And while some people do (Asteroid) mining as a group activity, most certainly do not!

Ore is an option, not a necessity. It's a pretty basic difference.

 

54 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

Adding food to DU doesn't suddenly make it a more social game.

 

It does in fact make it a more social game if inevitably someone will end up on a tile that can't grow food and thus has to trade for it... not becuase it's something they simply want to have, but because they literally have to have it in order to continue playing.

 

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Are none of you capable of providing a list of Cons that exceeds the Pros of adding food into the game? If the Pros vastly outweigh the Cons, then why bother even attempting an argument against it? Perhaps you need to put a little more thought into it... I'm sure there's things I didn't consider and/or already mention at the start of this.

 

Or are you simply here to be toxic for DU, NQ, and/or the community? The few of you that have replied to this topic so far have posts all over the forum ranting/complaining/whining about the game and/or the developers... and yet you're still here. Do you have some sort of personal vendetta or desire for the game to fail that you persist in shitting all over it with every opportunity presented to you? I'm practically brand new to this forum and it's plain as day to even me how toxic you are. You accomplish nothing beneficial for anyone, and the world would probably be better off without you and your negativity 👋🙂 It's okay, nobody will miss you.

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2 minutes ago, Oblivionburn said:

Perhaps you need to put a little more thought into it... I'm sure there's things I didn't consider and/or already mention at the start of this.

 

Since you are having trouble understanding, food isn't a very good idea as a design concept.

 

Suggesting that DU "needs" food and this is the only idea that makes sense is just not very imaginative. It's hardly the only or best solution to DU's lack of engagement, which you don't really seem to understand. 

 

As I explained, one basic concept in game design is that players don't like being "forced" to do things -- a meter that kills you when it expires unless you constantly shovel food in your mouth is boring, unimaginative, and not a wise design choice for any MMO...especially one that seems predicated on AFK. 

 

"It will force people to work together" -- again, you're not understanding how good design works. In a good game, people want to work together because there's a carrot, not a stick.

 

I used a basic game like Mario because it's ostensibly simple for people to understand. There's no such thing as "MMO design" or "single player" design, good game design is about engagement and if you can't learn from such a simple example...that's on you. 

 

Also...the reason there's no cities in DU has jack to do with it's design -- it's because cities don't work. They aren't viable technically and they never will be with NQ's core tech.

 

The game often struggles with few players...the issue with creating "empires" is that the servers couldn't support such complexity even if NQ had the resources to implement the many vague ideas you're throwing against the wall...which they don't. 

 

6 minutes ago, Oblivionburn said:

The few of you that have replied to this topic so far have posts all over the forum ranting/complaining/whining about the game and/or the developers... and yet you're still here. Do you have some sort of personal vendetta or desire for the game to fail that you persist in shitting all over it with every opportunity presented to you?

 

Why do you care...? 

 

This has nothing to do with the topic -- people with no point to make love to imagine things about people they do not know and make believe about the motives of internet strangers.

 

It's a waste of space and a window into what your version of what a "reasonable argument" means. 

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10 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

Why do you care...? 

I care because, like many, I would like to see the game succeed and grow into something great, which it's well capable of doing. From what I've read around this forum, you're just a toxic element that needs to remove itself from the equation. Seriously, you wonder why anyone from NQ doesn't participate here or communicate with you... who the hell would want to after reading your comments? Your community is toxic as [filtered], and you're part of the problem. Just removing yourself will be an improvement.

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Just now, Oblivionburn said:

I care because, like many, I would like to see the game succeed and grow into something great, which it's well capable of doing. From what I've read around this forum, you're just a toxic element that needs to remove itself from the equation. Seriously, you wonder why anyone from NQ doesn't participate here or communicate with you... who the hell would want to after reading your comments? Your community is toxic as [filtered], and you're part of the problem. Just removing yourself will be an improvement.

 

Got it. So you're yet another boring "I don't have anything to say about the topic, so I'll presume things about people I don't know and imply they are the ones being toxic". 

 

If you aren't interested in engaging further with the topic of the post in a civilized manner, you're the one that is bringing this to some weird personal level and should go. 

 

Criticism is not the same thing as toxicity -- you aren't obligated to agree with my opinions just as I'm not obligated to agree with yours...but you are obligated to stay on topic, remain civilized, and not resort to calling people "toxic" just because they express opinions you don't like.

 

You asked for actual criticism of your "idea" of a hunger meter...instead of engaging with that criticism (which again...you asked for) you're ranting about how "toxic" I am...? 🤷‍♂️

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If food is used in the way Star Citizen to Cyberpunk uses it, I’m fine. It adds minor buffs and provides minor debuffs over some hours in SC. 
 

"actually, it’s super easy... hardly an inconvenience."
 

However, if it’s used as a survival technique then there are far more important things they should introduce first:

 

Power, water and oxygen. 
 

food is waaaay down on the list. 
 

and if you believe repetitive, required activity would add anything to the game, I have one comment:

 

ore-mining. 
 

But, if on the other hand farming to make said food requires tracts of farmland per player and that land has to be conditioned over time to become more fertile if barren, and the. that land could be razed and the equipment destroyed by other players and so has to be defended somehow,  THEN we might be in to something. 
 

but quite frankly, that level of mechanics development alone would equal almost the entirety of the complexity of the current mechanics NQ have put in place over the last SIX YEARS for the entire rest of the game. 
 

Food: don’t hold your breath…. Oh wait, breathing is only decorative in DU, so you’re good. 

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Just want to point out that death has no real meaning in DU.  I would just put rez nodes on all my ships/buildings and die and go back to what i was doing.  I would not bother with food.  i have played many games and rarely ever eat the food.  I would have no problem with food adding buffs, still probably would not eat but those that enjoy that game style would have the option.

 

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On 1/17/2023 at 6:36 AM, Jinxed said:

Just because they announce something doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. So many things have been announced that haven’t happened yet. 

 

On 1/17/2023 at 8:35 AM, blundertwink said:

there's many easier ways that NQ could improve feature depth and they've truly not shown any interest or capacity to do this in the last 8 years.

 

22 hours ago, blundertwink said:

it's a pipe dream because NQ doesn't want to make new features. 

 

11 hours ago, Jinxed said:

but quite frankly, that level of mechanics development alone would equal almost the entirety of the complexity of the current mechanics NQ have put in place over the last SIX YEARS for the entire rest of the game. 

 

None of this is helping anything, and yes it makes you look toxic when it's in nearly every thread on this forum... post after post about how NQ sucks and their game sucks and that it's never going to get any better. It's like you're here just to drive everyone away from the game and ensure it fails.

Your supposed criticisms are just regurgitating the one con I had already listed: "You occassionally have to consume an item and some people find that annoying", and besides your usual toxicity towards the devs and the game, this thread has been exactly what I predicted in the very first sentence: "allow me to propose an argument before spamming this with messages about how annoying food mechanics are in games". And yet you did it anyway, because you're so filled with hate towards the devs and this game that you'll jump at any opportunity to shit all over them, and then when anyone calls you out on it you try to claim you're just providing "criticism" like it isn't plain-as-day you're using it as a vehicle to continue being toxic here.

If you have any hope at all for this game's future, then you need to stop bashing it all the time and start putting out a more positive message that will encourage other players to join and continue playing... otherwise the subs/funding are inevitably going to dry up and they'll be forced to shutdown the servers. This game could have a very bright future if you actually helped it instead of hindering it. If you bring more players to the game that could mean more subs/money/funding, which would mean they could hire more devs to get things done more quickly and this whole mess could easily be turned around into something epic. Even if you believe the current engine isn't capable of anything great, they could be one talented dev away from changing that.

@Gillwin is the only one to provide any real counter-point here, so thank you Gillwin, you make an excellent point that the whole thing could be circumvented with rez nodes which would render it a mere annoyance instead of a driving factor to encourage the creation of anything. I also never eat food in games when it's merely providing buffs and isn't a requirement for continuing to play the game, since that renders it merely optional and usually pointless.

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4 hours ago, Oblivionburn said:

Your supposed criticisms are just regurgitating the one con I had already listed: "You occassionally have to consume an item and some people find that annoying"

 

Not really -- I articulated why it's bad design, why it's utterly unfeasible for NQ, and how there's an infinite number of far easier mechanics that would be much wiser choices for NQ. 

 

4 hours ago, Oblivionburn said:

If you have any hope at all for this game's future, then you need to stop bashing it all the time and start putting out a more positive message that will encourage other players to join and continue playing... otherwise the subs/funding are inevitably going to dry up and they'll be forced to shutdown the servers. This game could have a very bright future if you actually helped it instead of hindering it. If you bring more players to the game that could mean more subs/money/funding, which would mean they could hire more devs to get things done more quickly and this whole mess could easily be turned around into something epic.

 

I don't "need" to do anything, and showering NQ with "more positive messages" won't help anything. As for subs and funding...that ship has already sailed, and it has jack to do with anything anyone is saying around here.

 

No one cares. If criticism on this forum that so few people view is making the difference between success and failure, that only underscores how poorly the game has scaled.

 

Criticism helps the game more than glowing positive platitudes. This idea that "if only people were more positive about the game, they'd have oh so much funding to hire devs" is just not grounded in any shred of reality.

 

This idea that they might merely be "one dev away" from fixing things makes me think you haven't had much experience working on large technical projects. That's just not how it works. One dev can't retool 8+ years of legacy code or fix the fundamental scaling challenges that come with a single-shard implementation.  

 

To say it again: criticism is not the same as toxicity

 

Toxicity is doing what you are doing: making claims about personal motivations that you know nothing about. When you spend your time talking about a person whose opinions you don't like instead of discussing their opinions on their merit, that's being toxic.

 

I'm not saying I'm perfect, but when I have something critical to say, I try to explain why I have the opinion I have.

 

Trying to assert that every opinion I've posted is just "hate" and "bashing" is what toxicity is -- it's conjuring up motivations about someone you don't know and implying those motivations are "wrong" because you don't have the patience or civility to allow for the possibility that people might simply have different opinions. 

 

For what it's worth: I've explained why food isn't a good design choice, how there's an infinite number of better and more simple design choices, and how implausible the laundry list of random features you've compiled is considering NQ's 8-year history of development velocity. That isn't merely regurgitating "food is annoying", but whatever. You do you. 

Edited by blundertwink
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