T1 fuel market effect opinions.

[GraXXoR]

I knew that T1 fuel would depress the value of T2 a bit and increase the T1 value slightly but what I didn't expect was it to reduce the value of T2 by so much (limestone has lost half its value). And only add about 10% to the cost of T1...  (except quartz which has admittedly risen from about 4 to 6 quanta.)

 

On the whole, I think this was a good move and will make T2 a bit more affordable for those who couldn't get a tile. And may even make some T2 tiles available again since once a bunch of people will decide it no longer makes sense to keep their T2 tiles operational.

 

I think the cost of T2 will increase again and a new balance will be found but I suspect the markets are going to take a bit of time to balance since many players will have paid a week or two of communism on their T2 tiles.

Any thoughts?

[CptLoRes]

Despite what NQ would like, people want to be self sufficient. So if a stable source of T2 is unavailable for most, they will use T1 instead regardless of price.

[Novean-61657]

T1 did spike... For a little bit... I also see T1 bouncing around from the weekend to midweek. It's still far from stable. And I still read people's comments here on the forum that are still operating their T1 ore fields at a loss... Eventually these people will wise up either by seeing the light or just going broke and their mining tiles going away...

 

And I'm seeing the same thing happening with T2 ore, looking at the DU AH (Auction House), I'm seeing T2 flowers (10-37 hexes) being sold for tens of millions... If I do some quick math with max skills, those tiles will cost you quanta if you just do the T2 mining. If you also do the T1 mining on them, you might theoretically make a profit. But you also need to get them to a market where you can sell those ores at reasonable prices. That means a trip through pvp space, either slowboating (risk=>expensive) or warping (just expensive). Either way, the return on investment is never and you'll be stuck doing a lot of mind-numbing automining calibration at virtually no profit. More T2 is entering the market and for many their T2 industry isn't yet as optimized as their T1 industry.

[Zireaa]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:53 PM, Jinxed said:

I knew that T1 fuel would depress the value of T2 a bit and increase the T1 value slightly but what I didn't expect was it to reduce the value of T2 by so much (limestone has lost half its value). And only add about 10% to the cost of T1...  (except quartz which has admittedly risen from about 4 to 6 quanta.)

 

On the whole, I think this was a good move and will make T2 a bit more affordable for those who couldn't get a tile. And may even make some T2 tiles available again since once a bunch of people will decide it no longer makes sense to keep their T2 tiles operational.

 

I think the cost of T2 will increase again and a new balance will be found but I suspect the markets are going to take a bit of time to balance since many players will have paid a week or two of communism on their T2 tiles.

Any thoughts?

I think T2 should be cut by half  it’s bin way two high for a while now  100 two 200 is two high about 50 is reasonable I believe 

[Zireaa]

On 12/17/2022 at 5:38 AM, CptLoRes said:

Despite what NQ would like, people want to be self sufficient. So if a stable source of T2 is unavailable for most, they will use T1 instead regardless of price.

I will have two agree with this I definitely play different then I did in alpha In alpha I would mine sell and buy what I need in release I just mine auto t1 and build what I can if anything the way the game went and how expensive t2 is compared two t1 it’s not even worth selling two but t2 if anything the changes pushed me two just use what I have and do less at the market  may be this will change but for now I will just manage with t1  

I will also say so far I spend less time in game and just get on two set things up and log out tell I have the ore I need two do the next thing (Alpha was a better game in my opinion) 

[CptLoRes]

38 minutes ago, Zireaa said:

Alpha was a better game in my opinion

You are not alone on that.

 

I used to strongly dislike ore mining because it was such a repetitive task. But never in a million years did I think that NQ would find something even more repetitive, pointless and boring like the MU's to replace it with.

 

And it is sad that the few times NQ as truly been able to surprise the community with something, it has been in a negative way.

[sHuRuLuNi]

I just log in to see if anyone has bought any of my blueprints (so that I can pay the stupid taxes) and log out again.
And even that I just do less and less ...

 

 

[Kezzle]

I'm struggling to find the motivation to bother to log on and collect the 100k dole.

[Pleione]

Just made a market run of my Sanctuary ore (which I always sell).  Looking at all the markets, it appears the T1 price crash from 25 has slowed down, but its still headed that way.  For example, 5 days ago I was successful selling Coal for 9.9 - today I priced it at 8.9.  Not a huge change, but significant and depressing all the same.

 

Our small Corp use to keep 10M in the bank and 1M on all territories for taxes.  Half our territories are at 500K now, and the org has less than 1.5M in the bank.  Only way we are surviving is due to the generosity of some large alt players running missions.  Without that income we would be broke.  Schematics count has decreased as well... and are only running essentials (like warp cells) in our factory plus a bit of ship development equipment (because if we can't at least make new, better, ships - whats the point?).

[ColonkinYT]

A month or so ago, I said that deflation is the path to the abyss for the game.
They twisted me at the temple and said that I did not understand anything in economy games and was generally stupid.
Although any market economy is essentially inflationary.
What. Less than 3 months later to see where the deflation in ore prices has led. I did not expect such a sad outcome.
It seems that one of the guys will be able to write a dissertation on the topic "How to kill the economy in 3 months. A quick guide for gamedev."
I don't even know how to fix the situation without another erasure...

[Pleione]

4 minutes ago, ColonkinYT said:

A month or so ago, I said that deflation is the path to the abyss for the game.
They twisted me at the temple and said that I did not understand anything in economy games and was generally stupid.
Although any market economy is essentially inflationary.
What. Less than 3 months later to see where the deflation in ore prices has led. I did not expect such a sad outcome.
It seems that one of the guys will be able to write a dissertation on the topic "How to kill the economy in 3 months. A quick guide for gamedev."
I don't even know how to fix the situation without another erasure...

 

How about a Christmas bonus of 90% off territory taxes and schematic cost?  Then just forget to expire it...

[ColonkinYT]

1 hour ago, Pleione said:

 

How about a Christmas bonus of 90% off territory taxes and schematic cost?  Then just forget to expire it...

Of course, it would be fun, but these bonuses will not solve the problems.
There is one psychological factor of deflation. Because of him, people leave the game.
When prices fall, you work more and get paid less.
Nobody likes this either in games or in real life.
And the reason here is far from Mining units. (Although in them, too, offline mining is such an idea.) The root problem is in game design and the lack of balance in the production of resources and their consumption. Much more ore is produced than can be consumed in the current situation. And when there were bots, it was possible to destroy excess ore for money. Now this possibility is not available. And surplus ore is putting pressure on the market.
Space fuel is not able to greatly improve the situation. (Although the step was taken right but too late).

[GraXXoR]

1 hour ago, ColonkinYT said:

A month or so ago, I said that deflation is the path to the abyss for the game.
They twisted me at the temple and said that I did not understand anything in economy games and was generally stupid.
Although any market economy is essentially inflationary.
What. Less than 3 months later to see where the deflation in ore prices has led. I did not expect such a sad outcome.
It seems that one of the guys will be able to write a dissertation on the topic "How to kill the economy in 3 months. A quick guide for gamedev."
I don't even know how to fix the situation without another erasure...

I often see posts on twitter by people saying things like, "I said xxxx but (unnamed other) did yyyy to me...."

Often "unnamed other" is expanded in their post to "everyone"...

Yet strangely I never see much in the way of actual twisting/trouncing/schooling/teaching/destroying/burning/flaying/scalding..  When I look back at the history, it's usually just one or two people disagreeing with the OP.

Funny stuff...

Anyway, I posted several times about deflation death spirals for this game, here's a recent post I remember posting less than two months ago... and the posts created some lively debate.

 

[ColonkinYT]

1 hour ago, Jinxed said:

I often see posts on twitter by people saying things like, "I said xxxx but (unnamed other) did yyyy to me...."

Often "unnamed other" is expanded in their post to "everyone"...

Yet strangely I never see much in the way of actual twisting/trouncing/schooling/teaching/destroying/burning/flaying/scalding..  When I look back at the history, it's usually just one or two people disagreeing with the OP.

Funny stuff...

Anyway, I posted several times about deflation death spirals for this game, here's a recent post I remember posting less than two months ago... and the posts created some lively debate.

 

I could quote by name because the forum remembers everything))). As many have said, the market will adjust itself and prices are about to find their limit. (this was still at prices of 18-20 quants per liter). I think the reality surprised even these people.
But it would look like gloating. I have no malice.
There is regret that we were right. I've been following your threads closely. And I largely agree.
Although, on the other hand, if you see that a person sticks an iron bare plug into a socket, then it is predictable that he will be shocked.

[RumRunnerI]

16 hours ago, ColonkinYT said:

A month or so ago, I said that deflation is the path to the abyss for the game.
They twisted me at the temple and said that I did not understand anything in economy games and was generally stupid.

 

I have been saying this too, I totally agree. It's easy to think quanta is flooding into the game but taxes and schematics have kept me very poor and very much in the rat ace to stay afloat. The qunta faucets do not on average offset the sinks so less money circulating will bring prices down as ore sellers are desperate for buyers to pay for taxes else go bust so the price is chased down. 

[blundertwink]

I've said this before, but the biggest sink in any MMO is player churn.

 

What percent of WoW items and gold are just sitting on inactive accounts collecting dust? Likely the vast majority of all the money and items ever "printed" into the game. 

 

Honestly, I'm not sure I much care about the "economy" of any MMO, overall...I'm just not the sort of player that cares to "play the markets" as a facet of gameplay.

 

What matters to me is that earning money is fun and that it is motivating because there's stuff I want to buy.  

 

In games, that is the primary driver of a good economy in my opinion -- actual interest in wanting to earn and spend money because it drives engagement with the game, overall. 

 

Earning money just to pay taxes is an objectively stupid design idea that undermines the whole point of having a currency system in games to begin with! it isn't to create a fake economy just for the sake of having an economy. 

 

This isn't complicated stuff; it's like they put quanta into the game without understanding why currency exists in video games. Game economies are not at all like real world economies.

 

NQ needs to step back and think about how to make their game fun; the state of the economy really doesn't matter if there's nothing fun to do with it.

[Novean-61657]

1 hour ago, blundertwink said:

NQ needs to step back and think about how to make their game fun; the state of the economy really doesn't matter if there's nothing fun to do with it.

They threw out fun half way through beta, with the rest of the bathwater...

 

Sometimes I wonder if NQ is fine with DU not being fun, but just being an addiction...

[Kezzle]

26 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

They threw out fun half way through beta, with the rest of the bathwater...

 

Sometimes I wonder if NQ is fine with DU not being fun, but just being an addiction...

It's not much of an addiction... I'm feeling zero pangs, or urges to log in... 

 

These forums tho'....

 

[kulkija]

2 hours ago, blundertwink said:

What matters to me is that earning money is fun and that it is motivating because there's stuff I want to buy.  

 

2 hours ago, blundertwink said:

Earning money just to pay taxes is an objectively stupid design idea that undermines the whole point of having a currency system in games to begin with! it isn't to create a fake economy just for the sake of having an economy. 

This!

[Neirin]

On 12/21/2022 at 1:58 AM, blundertwink said:

Earning money just to pay taxes is an objectively stupid design idea that undermines the whole point of having a currency system in games to begin with! it isn't to create a fake economy just for the sake of having an economy. 

 

You know you don't have to pay any taxes, right? just stop running your mining units and hq your 3 favourite tiles.

 

If your mining units are turning a profit, then you're not earning to pay the tax - you're just earning less because of the tax.

[Novidian]

I wonder if people have considered what I’m doing, and just run fewer tiles and use smaller units.

 

Ex: a tile has 400L of ore.

 

If you use 4 L MU, each one gives you 2400L a day, for 9600L. The calibrations for each is another 16k a day or so, for a total of like 26k, not counting adjacency.

 

Conversely, you can run 12MUs small  and get the same passive ore, but still get 4k+ per calibration. That is  9600+48k daily. 57k total (Usually closer to 70 with harvesting bonuses) More charges, yes, but double the output for the same tax rate.

[Pleione]

3 minutes ago, Novidian said:

I wonder if people have considered what I’m doing, and just run fewer tiles and use smaller units.

 

Ex: a tile has 400L of ore.

 

If you use 4 L MU, each one gives you 2400L a day, for 9600L. The calibrations for each is another 16k a day or so, for a total of like 26k, not counting adjacency.

 

Conversely, you can run 12MUs small  and get the same passive ore, but still get 4k+ per calibration. That is  9600+48k daily. 57k total (Usually closer to 70 with harvesting bonuses) More charges, yes, but double the output for the same tax rate.

 

Did that early on, but its not scaleable.  Calibration charges eventually become a bottleneck as your try and obtain a bit of each ore.

[Novean-61657]

52 minutes ago, Novidian said:

you can run 12MUs small 

But you can't generate 12 mining charges per day on a single account. ~7/day with max skills.

[Neirin]

1 hour ago, Novidian said:

I wonder if people have considered what I’m doing, and just run fewer tiles and use smaller units.

 

Ex: a tile has 400L of ore.

 

If you use 4 L MU, each one gives you 2400L a day, for 9600L. The calibrations for each is another 16k a day or so, for a total of like 26k, not counting adjacency.

 

Conversely, you can run 12MUs small  and get the same passive ore, but still get 4k+ per calibration. That is  9600+48k daily. 57k total (Usually closer to 70 with harvesting bonuses) More charges, yes, but double the output for the same tax rate.

That's basically what I've been doing.

I only have one tile with 8 small miners (400L/h coal) and 1 chromite miner (23 L/h), and getting 35-40KL coal + ~3kl chromite per day.

I use the chromite for fuel, and the coal pays the week's taxes in 2 days.

[Novidian]

3 hours ago, Pleione said:

 

Did that early on, but its not scaleable.  Calibration charges eventually become a bottleneck as your try and obtain a bit of each ore.

I started back right before they killed the bots, so I haven’t even considered expanding operations, yet. That’s a fair point. If I didn’t oopsie invest tons of TP into it when I got back, I’d probably be doing something else at this point.

 

Honestly, they could just make HQ tiles (or your first 3-5) tax free and it’d still be a big boost without over compensating. They killed 60% of the value of ore overnight, a few tax free tiles is nothing in comparison.