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Talemai is solid proof that ore distribution with infinite ore pools that can be claimed is terrible for game


Snapsis

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11 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:

Just ad territory warfare

That'd be trickier than just adding an exponent based on the number of tiles owned to the cost of owning a tile. It's not like they've actually got a code base to start from for that. Or even know how it'll work conceptually. So it'd take a very long time indeed to resolve the resource access exclusivity issue.

 

But in the end,  it's  a partial approach. The end we'll probably come to, it's very partial indeed, since the people who already have the land will be the ones with the resources to expend to keep it, and that becomes more true the longer the current situation pertains.

 

15 minutes ago, Kitpoe said:

I have a suggestion that isn't the total solution because of alt but it's a good start.

You can start to get around that by having costs go up for tiles owned by anyone in your org. The tariff for a member or for tiles owned by a member would be less than that for tiles owned directly, but should be applied to both TU placement fees and ongoing rent. You could have tiers for cost based on distance from ownership. If your tiles cost doubled every 5 you owned, tiles owned by any org you're a member of would make the cost factor double for every 10 tiles owned, and tiles owned by org members would double your costs every 20 or 100 or some such. Numbers are obviously for illustration only, and would be set by people who have actual access to tile ownership stats, and an idea of what org size they think works best to keep the game good...

 

You could add factors for "permissions allowed": letting other entities access your land might attract a premium, or the opposite might be true: it could be made more expensive to exclude others from certain permissions. The grade of entity that you allow access to could be a factor too: small fees per person; large fees per org.

 

It wouldn't get rid of Alts, but it'd mean each Alt would have less of a benefit than otherwise and at least NQ could fleece some additional money out of their whales.

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9 minutes ago, Kezzle said:

at least NQ could fleece some additional money out of their whales.

 

I think it's funny that people paying for 10-20 accounts are considered whales...

 

Yeah, paying NQ $300+ per month is a lot...but I remember a story from an executive that managed a large mobile gaming company.

 

One of their whales bought so much stuff, they had their servant spamming the 'buy' button because even clicking the button was too much work. We're talking about millions of dollars.

 

It was one of the most disgusting stories I've heard of laziness, excess, and stupidity....but that's what a real whale is. That's the sort of stupid rich person these people more or less designed entire games around.

 

This doesn't work for a subscription MMO, because $300/month is nothing...if NQ wants to design around "whales", having a sub makes no sense and a free to play model loaded with micro-transactions is really the only avenue.

 

That could be why they have a job posting looking for a backend engineer with an emphasis on microservices, web apps, and web integrations... 🤔 Even NQ has to see that there's no way a sub model can work for DU anymore, no matter what they change in the next few months. 

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These are great solutions but as usual alt accounts make things a lot more complicated. The current "soft limits" for individual accounts (ie: calibration charges, construct limits, mission capacity, etc) can be instantly bypassed just creating another account. Personally I would prefer a more gradual effort based method whereby these limits start at zero and require active investment to into your character to further increase (ie: performing related actions or completing quests). It still does not fully solve the problem but alts become a lot less attractive if you have to actually do stuff to unlock that potential. Unfortunately DU has always been framed under the passive talent point approach so it stands to reason that most players here prefer to have their stats increased without expending effort. The other option is to make quanta generating activities require more individualized player interaction like forcing alt mission runners to fly separate constructs and also dodge asteroids. Not sure how such a concept can be applied to territory mining thou as it is completely centered around passive income generation.

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11 hours ago, Wyndle said:

I have seen hundreds of poss like his and even made a few myself. 

I see a ban in your future. NQ does not like common sense.

 

 

11 hours ago, Wyndle said:

 

 

 

 

 

Reference:

https://dictionary.apa.org/gaslight

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agent provocateur (more polite than 'patsy')

Prior evidence of insider knowledge resulting in blatant imbalances.

 

I came to the table in good faith and offered input, suggestions, and value for the game and community.  Telling us how to jump through hoops with enough flame but not too much when we're not heaping praise upon you is a MAJOR RED FLAG. Every step along the way since launch that has been "mishandled" has been called out yet we get short notice for a single planet being released?  NQ has shaved the doubts balanced on Occam's Razer so thin that we're left with two equally horrible possible explanations; malfeasance or catastrophic incompetence.  Each patch has just enough "good enough" to temporarily pull attention away from consistent, repeated abuse of your community.  

 

There seems to be tons of smoke billowing around every patch.  It couldn't possibly be someone's pants ablaze?  Nah, nothing to see here...

 

:(

 

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50 minutes ago, Msoul said:

These are great solutions but as usual alt accounts make things a lot more complicated. The current "soft limits" for individual accounts (ie: calibration charges, construct limits, mission capacity, etc) can be instantly bypassed just creating another account. Personally I would prefer a more gradual effort based method whereby these limits start at zero and require active investment to into your character to further increase (ie: performing related actions or completing quests). It still does not fully solve the problem but alts become a lot less attractive if you have to actually do stuff to unlock that potential. Unfortunately DU has always been framed under the passive talent point approach so it stands to reason that most players here prefer to have their stats increased without expending effort. The other option is to make quanta generating activities require more individualized player interaction like forcing alt mission runners to fly separate constructs and also dodge asteroids. Not sure how such a concept can be applied to territory mining thou as it is completely centered around passive income generation.

Sounds like you are suggesting they should put more Game in their game?  I totally agree.

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1 hour ago, BoomHeadshot said:

I see a ban in your future. NQ does not like common sense.

 

 

 

I would rather kiss the money and effort I have put in goodbye than be subservient and chant 'thank you sir, may I have another.'  I am fully aware that using terms like gaslighting when referring to NQ's activities is incendiary and I do not use it lightly.  Of all the words I have rattling around my skull along side my last remaining brain cell, it is the most accurate from my perspective. 

 

I invite anyone to read through my post history, even the Alpha posts if anyone has access.  I sometimes use hyperbole for effect and I have dabbled in light hearted trolling but the majority of words are for the benefit of the game and community.  I challenge anyone to find any negative sentiment in my words that isn't tied to real issues past and present.  

 

Edit:  

I went digging, this is from the last page of my posts that I can still see.  As far as I can tell the Alpha forums are 'offline.'  This is from approximately a year ago and as far as I can tell the underlying issues that drove off Mega and so many others is still alive and in full control of DU.

Edited by Wyndle
Adding more detail.
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3 hours ago, Wyndle said:

Looking around more, @Shredder was the only one to mention having seen a planet listed on the patch announcement and later the same day came the 'when will we hear about planets' complaints I recalled seeing.  The context for removing a portion of an official announcement that we now know for fact was a part of the patch is of the utmost importance here.  Just seeing Shredder's post with no direct response could create the impression that the planet was held back or not actually in the post.

 

Two plus weeks of prep time versus two days is an uncontestable head start with a myriad of additional ways to ensure coming out on top.  Even a solo player with two weeks of insider prep time could buy up and build MUs and TUs while mission running to cover TU placement costs and blanket the planet in fast claimed tiles.

 

@NQ-Wanderer @NQ-Nyota @NQ-Deckard  -  This incident has pushed the boundary past plausible deniability.  I can see the occasional slip or blunder leading to poor results but every patch having essentially the same effect of benefiting a few?  It is either malfeasance or ineptitude on a level that ensures the eventual collapse of the game and the fact the servers haven't already croaked takes credence away from the latter.

I still find it hilarious the same people generally getting information early are the ones on discord calling me a "conspiracy theorist". As if half of the guys locking up most of the t2+ ore are not botting missions as the same time to be able to afford all the land they are claiming, then not using.

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1 minute ago, CyberDay said:

I still find it hilarious the same people generally getting information early are the ones on discord calling me a "conspiracy theorist". As if half of the guys locking up most of the t2+ ore are not botting missions as the same time to be able to afford all the land they are claiming, then not using.

It is common for those engaged in gaslighting to confess via projection.  The more someone insists that another is engaged in conspiracy theories, the more evidence that they are engaging in actual conspiracy.  It may not be a smoking gun, but there's enough smoke to be cautious. 

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5 minutes ago, Wyndle said:

It is common for those engaged in gaslighting to confess via projection.  The more someone insists that another is engaged in conspiracy theories, the more evidence that they are engaging in actual conspiracy.  It may not be a smoking gun, but there's enough smoke to be cautious. 

If you want a laugh, you can look at some of my past posts here and on discord. 

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8 hours ago, Cergorach said:

Another problem I have is that some people knew about the new planet and could plan for it. I just saw it in the stream and bought stuff, but even before the stream the TU market got bought out. So there were people who knew before the stream...

I knew since before release that a new planet was coming  And have been planning for it since week two.  The stream announcement just allowed me to put the plan into motion. Although I did stream snipe cords of the new planets and move assets closer to where the planet would pop.  But hey I will give you some insider information they are going to add more planets, start planning now.unknown.png

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20 minutes ago, RugesV said:

I knew since before release that a new planet was coming  And have been planning for it since week two.  The stream announcement just allowed me to put the plan into motion. Although I did stream snipe cords of the new planets and move assets closer to where the planet would pop.  But hey I will give you some insider information they are going to add more planets, start planning now.

The issue isn't that we know there will be more planets coming online that we can prep for.  The issue is that a select few likely had a release date weeks in advance to organize and stage assets.  The issue is that NQ has been caught repeatedly giving a game breaking advantage to a select few in a game where resource scarcity is a feature.  The issue is that NQ released ONE planet despite it being plain to see that doing so would further advantage those who have already been advantaged even without insider info.

 

I saw at least three people on the forums discussing these types of things prior to 1.1 (down from a dozen a year ago for similar circumstances).  If us whiners in the forums can see a problem with it then NQ cannot feign ignorance of the consequences of releasing one planet.  The right-click recycling killed my optimism for the collective dev skill of NQ.  Releasing one planet in an already imbalanced PvP focused game cannot be explained away in any manner favorable to NQ.  It is completely unacceptable and moved me from neutral but skeptical to seeing a clear and demonstrable pattern of gaslighting and abuse.

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1 minute ago, Wyndle said:

The issue isn't that we know there will be more planets coming online that we can prep for.  The issue is that a select few likely had a release date weeks in advance to organize and stage assets.  The issue is that NQ has been caught repeatedly giving a game breaking advantage to a select few in a game where resource scarcity is a feature.  The issue is that NQ released ONE planet despite it being plain to see that doing so would further advantage those who have already been advantaged even without insider info.

 

I saw at least three people on the forums discussing these types of things prior to 1.1 (down from a dozen a year ago for similar circumstances).  If us whiners in the forums can see a problem with it then NQ cannot feign ignorance of the consequences of releasing one planet.  The right-click recycling killed my optimism for the collective dev skill of NQ.  Releasing one planet in an already imbalanced PvP focused game cannot be explained away in any manner favorable to NQ, it is completely unacceptable and moved me from neutral but skeptical to seeing a clear and demonstrable pattern of gaslighting and abuse.

I feel like he already knew what you meant lol

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4 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

Just ad territory warfare

This is the guy who thinks PVP solves everything.

 

Yeah, nah. first thing is to make sure people cant sit on inactive tiles with T2+ ore on them...

For example, if a tile goes inactive, it should allow someone else to come along and activate the tile by paying rent and take over the TU.

It's ridiculous that orgs can sit on tiles paying 1/3 the asking price just to keep their competitors off of those tiles. 

 

My daughter could have spotted that sort of loophole when she was 10.

But it seems NQ devs are like... This is fine... I'm OK with this...

 

raw

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19 minutes ago, Jinxed said:

This is the guy who thinks PVP solves everything.

 

Yeah, nah. first thing is to make sure people cant sit on inactive tiles with T2+ ore on them...

For example, if a tile goes inactive, it should allow someone else to come along and activate the tile by paying rent and take over the TU.

It's ridiculous that orgs can sit on tiles paying 1/3 the asking price just to keep their competitors off of those tiles. 

 

My daughter could have spotted that sort of loophole when she was 10.

But it seems NQ devs are like... This is fine... I'm OK with this...

 

raw

If someone doesn't keep a TU on it at all it should just roll over eventually imo. They are not even mining from half the ones they are keeping locked up.

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4 hours ago, blundertwink said:

 

I think it's funny that people paying for 10-20 accounts are considered whales...

 

Yeah, paying NQ $300+ per month is a lot...but I remember a story from an executive that managed a large mobile gaming company...millions of dollars....that's what a real whale is....

Some whales are blue, others are pilot... :)

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4 minutes ago, Kezzle said:

Some whales are blue, others are pilot... :)

Yo, listen up; here is the story.

about a little guy that lives in the DU world

and all day and all night

and everything he sees is DU like him, inside and outside

DU his house with the DU little window

with a DU corvette

and everything is DU for him and his self and everybody around

cause he can't get NQ to listen

 

I'm DU, I believe and I try

I believe and I die

I believe and I cry

I believe and I try

I believe and I die

I believe and I cry

I believe and I try

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18 hours ago, blundertwink said:

I think it's funny that people paying for 10-20 accounts are considered whales...

 

Yeah, paying NQ $300+ per month is a lot...but I remember a story from an executive that managed a large mobile gaming company.

Keep in mind that some with 10-20 accounts certainly didn't pay $300+/month... Some paid $70/year/account and prepaid for years. Sure, $1400/year for 20 accounts is a lot of money for some, for other's it less so. But keep in mind that this happened in a period where people couldn't spend money on vacations, going out, new computers, etc. Thus some might have that money to spend...

 

Keep in mind that a study in 2017 had as a result that the average US student spend $900/year on booze... What if you're a student that doesn't drink (alcohol) at all? Add inflation and that $1400/year for 20 accounts isn't so much as you thought. IF you want to do that now, it is more like ~$2800/year for 20 accounts, but still quite a bit removed from the $300+/month...

 

That said... 20 accounts... Much of DU is gated by player activity. I wouldn't want to manage 20 characters! I have four and while I might theoretically would like a few more due to talents, actually using them all would be an absolute pain! I wouldn't even want to think about using them all to automine... That would be another full time job! No thank you!

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1 hour ago, Cergorach said:

That said... 20 accounts... Much of DU is gated by player activity. I wouldn't want to manage 20 characters! I have four and while I might theoretically would like a few more due to talents, actually using them all would be an absolute pain! I wouldn't even want to think about using them all to automine... That would be another full time job! No thank you!

There's a fair bit of 'passive' activity that Alts can help with: owning land and cores, for example. Talents are a consideration, but they're really just either an accelerator (TP gain is proportional to number of toons; you can get level 5 skills faster) or a convenience (saves trolling your MU rigger from planet to planet). Isn't the biggest "semi-passive" problem Mission running? Though you'd need a really big ship to take the large missions for 20 toons at once! :)

 

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On 12/15/2022 at 3:41 AM, blundertwink said:

If people honestly believed their feedback might be seen by devs, the tone of this forum would likely be very different. There's thousands of posts that go into pages and pages and pages of detail, but communication has never been bi-directional. There's no reason to believe this will change after so many years.

 

I think fundamental reason for it, that NQ is much more constrained both in terms of internal hierarchy and developlent capability (to actually afford any "additional" ideas), then people imagine.  I can see few actual devs just sitting and doing what they were told to do by managment, crawling in pain to another cost-cutting feature or something. There is simply no room for any other things players fantasising about all the time. So comms are token at best.

 

Its like annoying guy at cheap hot dog stall why there is no 3 stars michelin wonders of taste. What he can do.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

The (closed NDA) forum had good vibes for about a year or two. But by then is was already starting to be clear how NQ operated, and things started to change quickly..

 

You can see that in this forum, too -- when you go back to the start of time here, there's a lot optimism and activity.

 

The forums became less popular, regular posters vanish, and the tone changes.

 

You can see posts in 2016 talking about what will happen to the balance of power or control of cities after big organizational wars or how important politics and intrigue will be...things that never materialized as concepts and never will. It's actually a bit tragic to see how people talked about things six years ago where even some of the basic ideas they had about how things will work never became real features. 

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On 12/14/2022 at 2:20 PM, Snapsis said:

Jago -     2.66% tiles claimed (1616)

Teoma - 2.48% claimed (1505)

Both out since launch.

 

Talemai - 3.34% (1768 tiles) claimed in less than 24hrs.

I think our work is done here.

 

NQ : Now do you understand why we need a different ore distribution for next planet?

 

Edited to add more evidence.

This is a field of Gold all captured by one Org within 36 hours.

::pos{0,41,-25.0361,-89.9769,-0.0003}

image.png.e1c1551352c3781f84d3241a847f212b.png

Only one solution ... depleting ore pools ....... 
- More ore pools which deplete
- gives scanning a more permanent and less frustrating job (because more decent pools), there is a reason for more frequent (short stay) scanning. Just like the good old days when we had mega nodes.
- it gives EVERYBODY a fair change at any moment in the games lifecycle (for both starter as experienced players)

- No single org domination
- NQ can add unlimited planets at the moment the ore pools dry-out

Edited by Verliezer
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12 minutes ago, Verliezer said:

Only one solution ... depleting ore pools ....... 

With that solution everyone is a looser, not just you... 😉

 

People need to realize that everyone in DU (or any MMO) does not have a 'fair' chance, ever. There are always people with more brainpower, more experience, more time, more money, more luck, more capacity to suffer boredom then you. You could dumb down every MMO to the equivalent of Tic-tac-toe and there would still be people that would loose...

 

And your solutions create other issues. Unlimited planets are NOT viable or wanted, it would spread out the player base so much, that it would just be another single player game that has some online functionality. Going back to the number of planets during beta is what a lot of us want, not just because of ore...

 

I just think that the extreme ore scarcity hasn't made the game any more fun...

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