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Ore Availability and Distribution


Aseennav

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I have been performing scans of all planets.

After thousands of scans performed in various methods, such as sequential, random or targeted.

I must say that finding anything other than T1 ores is nearly impossible at this stage of the game.

When I have performed sequential scans, meaning scan adjacent tiles using 2 ships and 3 scanners at a time for lengths of over 100 to 200 tiles in a row, I have been unable to hit a single tile with a T2 or higher resource on any planet.

When I have performed random scans, meaning scan 3 tiles and pick another location at random typically no less than 6 tiles away or so, same result.

 Targeted scans are where I scanned around someone else's tiles and found maybe a 1L/H or so of a resource or even nothing.

The below attached screen shots show only a sample of all the scans I have taken as I have the split between 2 ships but whatever you see in those pictures as scanned is much larger by at least twice over as one ship has more scans than the other.

 

I don't know what the promised availability of ores for the game was, but if this is indicative of how ore is distributed, as new players come in they are going to be very disenchanted to put in the effort of at least 15 minutes per scan or 15 minutes per each 3 scans.

 

One of my ships has 500 scans as of the writing of this post.

That is a total time investment of 42 hours or so, which does not account for the time it takes to either move the ship and relocate it or setup the 3 scanners in an XS core and repeat around the ship until you are out of range and then move on to another location and repeat. So I am well over 150 or so hours of scanning planets and to be honest its getting really old, boring and not what I would like to say I pay a monthly for 5 accounts. Yes you read right I am playing / paying for 5 accounts.

 

Let the Trolling Begin!

 

785719845_MadisM2.png

1482964116_ThadesM1.png

Thades.png

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I'm hoping for 2 things:

 

1) New planets

2) Much richer ores on those (PVP only I suspect) planets.

 

Not sure who made the call to reduce ores on planets, but I agree with the Op, it sucks.  The lore is inconsistent as well:  Multiple people are undoubtedly wasting time scanning the same tiles over and over, but Asteroids are broadcast...  

 

Suggestions:

 

A )  Bump the ore content when the new planets come online

B )   Make tile scans optionally public.  e.g.  Have a special checkin site, perhaps near the Arkship, where players can sell their scanning results and those results become public.  All maps will have the tiles with public scans show in a different color and the results can be read by clicking on a previously scanned territory.  This would both generate a source of income, and done right (with date and scanner name retained) a source of pride.  Limit the number of checkins to something like 10 a day to avoid some org with 10000 scans in its pocket claiming all the rewards.

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New planets are a stopgap at best. If you think ore was found quickly up til now, imagine how quickly it will be found by groups who have already established fleets of scanning ships and efficient procedures. 
 

each subsequent planet will be owned in days. 
 

there needs to be a fundamental change in the overall game principle in order to support future growth / ingress of new players. 

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As long as we get server load Improvements best not to comment anymore as this is not read since nq sees it as non-positive critizism.

 

That said, in Beta it was balanced, now its shit.  end comment.

 

oh right, :)

 

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Since we have the stupid idea of a cash rent to Aphelia for territories, how about making that scale for the number of territories that the entity (player or org) holds? If it went up on a logarithmic curve, there would be a limit to how much any group can hold, howevermany alts and clever subinfeudation schemes it comes up with.

 

Til recently the ownership of a tile has been able to produce enough cash to pay its rent often enough to never lose ownership; that might change, now that you can't suck at the teat of NPC buy orders, and that might even mean ownerships lapsing and previously-held zones becoming available to new tenants.

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11 minutes ago, Kezzle said:

... how about making that scale for the number of territories that the entity (player or org) holds?

 

Joke of DU balance, that all limits are meaningless, beyond of limiting casual players, because "invested" people just make alts. And more alts. And more. And alt orgs.

 

NQ interested in people having as much alts as possible (for $), so any real "honest" balance is impossible -- its anyway be latent pay for win (at least on level pay for grind/pay for having everyoning on 5 characters, etc). This why all this talks "no one need do anything" is pure bs double standards too.

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4 hours ago, Kezzle said:

Since we have the stupid idea of a cash rent to Aphelia for territories, how about making that scale for the number of territories that the entity (player or org) holds? If it went up on a logarithmic curve, there would be a limit to how much any group can hold, howevermany alts and clever subinfeudation schemes it comes up with.

 

Til recently the ownership of a tile has been able to produce enough cash to pay its rent often enough to never lose ownership; that might change, now that you can't suck at the teat of NPC buy orders, and that might even mean ownerships lapsing and previously-held zones becoming available to new tenants.

 

This is, of course, exactly how territories use to work.  The idea was that it would get really expensive to own more than about 10.  It wasn't logarithmic in the classic sense, but did scale steeply.  Back then, it was the cost of placing a territory unit - there was no "rent".

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Ohh look! Just as we said the wipe did not solve anything.

 

And instead all we got (as predicted) was a a new 'master race' with orgs who had detailed plans learned from beta on how to maximize their efforts at release.

And they have now literately taken over the game at the expense of everyone else trying to play.

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2 hours ago, Pleione said:

 

This is, of course, exactly how territories use to work.  The idea was that it would get really expensive to own more than about 10.  It wasn't logarithmic in the classic sense, but did scale steeply.  Back then, it was the cost of placing a territory unit - there was no "rent".

I'm betting that didn't work as well as the NQ "planners" expected, either. One-time costs are a delaying tactic, since any one can accumulate... But putting a periodic charge that gets more and more difficult to pay for is another matter. Sure, big orgs will still do better, but they actually have to generate a revenue in order to do so, since the 'passive' (or at least, low effort) income from territories starts to become less adequate. And making Orgs hand off their territories to Org members in order to reduce their exposure to the exponent adds any amount of politics potential.

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17 hours ago, Jinxed said:

New planets are a stopgap at best. If you think ore was found quickly up til now, imagine how quickly it will be found by groups who have already established fleets of scanning ships and efficient procedures. 
 

each subsequent planet will be owned in days. 
 

there needs to be a fundamental change in the overall game principle in order to support future growth / ingress of new players. 

In other words, DU is fundamentally flawed at the core of that part of the design.  

1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

Ohh look! Just as we said the wipe did not solve anything.

 

And instead all we got (as predicted) was a a new 'master race' with orgs who had detailed plans learned from beta on how to maximize their efforts at release.

And they have now literately taken over the game at the expense of everyone else trying to play.

It didn't take a detailed plan to get ahead of 80% of the players, just an understanding of which tools were needed in what order and then putting in the grind.  The persistent nature of the design was always going to advantage the early adopters over new comers.  The FTUE implicitly puts new players on a path of gameplay that has been nerfed out of viability since launch which is WAY worse than just older accounts having more advantages.

 

I've tried mentally pulling this game apart from every direction and viewpoint to find solutions to suggest that would have positive impact but nearly every time the problems extend into and beyond the core of the design.  The little imperfections in creativity are what makes art, but serious flaws at the base layer can ruin the entire body of work.  The worst part of the exercise of trying to find ways to save DU is to discover a direct financial conflict of interest between the cost of the server and the sandbox nature of the game itself.  The more the game succeeds the more it fails and vice versa to a degree.  This conflict between the core gameplay features and the cost of operations is baked into the recipe and no amount of layering new features over time can remove this inherent flaw.

 

So dear, sweet Virginia; yes there is a Santa Clause but even he and his elves can't save DU from itself.

 

:)

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The scanner was introduced/created for the old mining system and it made sense back then: scans told you what and how much was in a tile; scanning over time showed depletion status; it was useful and made sense, even the time it took to scan was acceptable (to me) since you got something out of it every time.

However, the feature was repurposed with little thought: you still get a scan data stamp even though it completely meaningless (values never change)

 

The irony of it all, and what really makes me laugh, is that the ore distribution appears to follow a "heat map" style distribution that is suspiciously similar to the mining minigame, but you don't have the tools to hunt down the right location with the scanner.

Silly, isn't it? The mining minigame is not all that engaging on the extractors, but it would be an actual play loop on the scanner. 

Of course that would make it to easy, since the resources don't shift over time... at least on a planetary scale; and yet they jump around like demented rabbits on every tile every 24 hours... go figure :)

But hey, what do I know? I stopped playing after the first month ended.
Don't get me wrong though, I still want to see the game succeed, but as the saying goes "grab a chair; you'll get tired if you wait standing up" :D 

Edited by StaticAstraeus
grammar
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Question: Is this all scanned on the three safe planets? Or also on the non-safe planets? And was there ever T2 on the safe moons?

 

And is T2+ ore not available at the market and are those prices it is available at unreasonable? (and I don't mean compared to T1)

 

I'm only tipping my toes into T2/T3 manufacturing (completely focused on T1 production at the moment), but I only found Garnarite relatively expensive (didn't buy it as I didn't need it).

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He said "I have been performing scans of all planets",  so yes I think it is safe to say he also scanned non-safe planets.

 

But even if this was only on "safe" planets, there is something fundamentally wrong with the game if someone puts down this much effort and is still not able to find a sustainable source of anything > T1 ore. And it literally means that any new player must join an existing org (who owns higher tier tiles) or be stuck as a T1 peasant for the remainder of the game.

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2 hours ago, Cergorach said:

Question: Is this all scanned on the three safe planets? Or also on the non-safe planets? And was there ever T2 on the safe moons?

 

And is T2+ ore not available at the market and are those prices it is available at unreasonable? (and I don't mean compared to T1)

 

I'm only tipping my toes into T2/T3 manufacturing (completely focused on T1 production at the moment), but I only found Garnarite relatively expensive (didn't buy it as I didn't need it).

 

If you go the the System map, select a planet, and zoom in it will tell you which ores are on each planet.  Works for their moons as well.  This is suppose to be current - they are definitely different than in beta.

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3 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

He said "I have been performing scans of all planets",  so yes I think it is safe to say he also scanned non-safe planets.

 

But even if this was only on "safe" planets, there is something fundamentally wrong with the game if someone puts down this much effort and is still not able to find a sustainable source of anything > T1 ore. And it literally means that any new player must join an existing org (who owns higher tier tiles) or be stuck as a T1 peasant for the remainder of the game.

Yes that includes the PVP Area planets.

It is not easy to plot a course where you will not be found by other players and at times where there is less people on.

 

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The frustrating thing is that T2 is needed for space fuel, and it is not casually accessible.

For a good chance at T2 you need to basically sit and check your DSAT until an Uncommon pops on rumored for your planet. 
(if you are on Thades, and it is AnotherPlanet Uncommon, you will be beat by people on that planet. Having to go maybe 100-150+SU vs. 40-60SU - more time/fuel)

During a two hour cycle the asteroid may only be basic, not near your planet, or in pvp. Three things that work against a player to simply get fuel.


I spent 6 hours this morning waiting for an Uncommon in Thades to pop up... this finally happened  at the end of my play time while I was in the shower, getting ready for work... RIP. I don't need to fly to Asteroids for T1, I can get that from my tile Haven & Sanct tiles, and unless I am first on a basic, T2 will be gone (as they ignore T1 until T2 is gone.)

 

I don't mind coming home empty handed for T3 or greater, As long as I can recoup fuel.
What I cannot risk is the fuel usage needed to quickly fly a DSAT, and not recover fuel cost.

 

Obtaining ore via asteroid is becoming a lot like pvp, in which the risk of going to compete for a limited resource is almost not worth the fuel expense and game time required. The risk of going home empty handed is also significant and quiet the set back under the new economy.

We shouldn't be forced into running missions, for stable income to buy fuel, cause we can't sit on DU for 6 hours a day to mine our own fuel ore.
This problem will be made even worse by the new cloaking of an Asteroids rarity, and the further hoarding T2 tiles by a very few people.

Of course if you are one of the minority of players that own one or more T2 flowers, your are immune to this issue, and get to troll everyone about being pathetic.


JUST MAKE SPACE FUEL REQUIRE T1 TO CRAFT UNLESS YOU WANT TO CONTENT LOCK NEW PLAYERS TO PLANETS IF THEY DON'T WANT TO MISSION GRIND TO BUY FUEL.

 

OH WAIT THE FASTEST WAY TO DO AILERON MISSION IS USE SPACE FUEL! 🤣

 

 

BASICALLY UNLESS YOU HAVE T2 TILE...

ONLY BUILD WITH T1 AND STAY ON PLANET!
 ☠️



 

Edited by Rokkur
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25 minutes ago, Rokkur said:

ONLY BUILD WITH T1 AND STAY ON PLANET! ☠️


 

 

In Dual Universe, you can for example:

  • Build a giant space station the size of a moon with your friends
  • Create an intergalactic political Empire
  • Gather along with thousands of others in player-made cities
  • Get hundreds of players inside space exploring ships
  • Mass-produce your custom designed ships to sell them in-game
  • Become a trader, a logistician or an industrialist
  • Program complex behaviors for your constructions
  • Live in a secret base 1km underground on a remote moon
  • Make a name as a spaceship designer or outpost architect

In other words, in Dual Universe, you can invent a new life for yourself in a world without limits, where almost anything is possible. We aim to make a massively multiplayer roleplaying sandbox on PC like never seen before.

 

- DU Kickstarter

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I agree with the T1 Ores assessment.

Here is what in real life makes space fuel and atmospheric fuel.

 

Atmospheric fuel goes in atmospheric engines such as pratt and whitney and GE engines.

Atmospheric engines take air from the atmosphere and combine it with fuel as the oxidizer to make thrust.

 

Space fuel goes in to rocket / space engines such as ehem... Raptor Engines whcih at nothing more than a complex set of turbopumps.

Space engines cannot get air fron the vaccum of space so you need to carry your own oxidizer with you.

So in theory Nitron can be used for space fuel if you had an oxidizer tank such a LOX.

 

But wait, in game Oxygen, Quartz, Carbon and Hydrogen are mixed to make Nitron, that means that the fuel already has oxidizer in it.

The recipe for Kergon uses Oxygen, Hydrogen and one of 4 T2s to make space fuel. pfft science?

 

Again I know the game is not real life, but for a game that wants to use real life physics, (which it does not very well I may add...) they got the fuel thing soooo wrong!.

The makeup of the in game ores is pretty much true to life, hematite, quartz, bauxite... all of them are based on RL ores.

 

But yes I agree, Fuels should be simple to make at least for fuel burning engines.

 

bleh!

 

Edited by Aseennav
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10 minutes ago, Aseennav said:

I agree.

Here is what in real life makes space fuel and atmospheric fuel.

 

Atmospheric fuel goes in atmospheric engines such as pratt and whitney and GE engines.

Atmospheric engines take air from the atmosphere and combine it with fuel as the oxidizer to make thrust.

 

Space fuel goes in to rocket / space engines such as ehem... Raptor Engines whcih at nothing more than a complex set of turbopumps.

Space engines cannot get air fron the vaccum of space so you need to carry your own oxidizer with you.

So in theory Nitron an be used for space fuel if you had an oxidizer tank such a LOX.

 

But wait, in game Oxygen, Quartz, Carbon and Hydrogen are mixed to make Nitron, that means that the fuel already has oxidizer in it.

The recipe for Kergon uses Oxygen, Nitrogen and one of 4 T2s to make space fuel.

 

Again I know the game is not real life, but for a game that wants to use real life physics, (which it does not very well I may add...) they got the fuel thing soooo wrong!.

The makeup of the in game ores is pretty much true to life, hematite, quartz, bauxite... all of them are based on RL ores.

 

But yes I agree, Fuels should be simple to make at least for fuel burning engines.

 

bleh!

 

https://science.howstuffworks.com/question159.htm

 

If one were to apply a tiny amount of real world knowledge to the game concepts this could be fun and educational at the same time.  You may need a few grams of silver for each engine but the fuel would be fairly simple to mass produce with T1 equipment and no input materials.  But there's no way that combination could fit in this micromanaged economy.

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I just wanted to mention a few things:

  • The ores listed on the planetary/moon map screen are indeed an accurate reflection of what can be found there
  • Remember the rarer something is the more value it will naturally have. Increasing the relative abundance for upper tier resources will also act to devalue them and taken too far can detract from the whole purpose behind having resource tiers. The actual source of frustration here seems to be that players feel their scanning efforts (ie: time investment) are not being adequately rewarded. To address this we need a solution that allows NQ to regulate the RNG associated with territory scanning to be more in line with player efforts. Perhaps a similar effort based metric could be directed towards mining/maintaining higher value territories but this has many pros and cons that would need to be considered.
  • With regards to T1 Space fuel, Deckard already mentioned in the official discord that if all goes well, they are planning to add it to update 1.2 (see below)

image.png.50d3099ed170ce3014ea13b728958c68.png

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1 hour ago, Wyndle said:

If one were to apply a tiny amount of real world knowledge to the game concepts this could be fun and educational at the same time.

Trust me, it's in no way fun, unless you're some kind of masochist. DU's tech is just a drekheap of inconsistent post-hoc failure to cogently rationalise anything.

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1 hour ago, Msoul said:

I just wanted to mention a few things:

  • The ores listed on the planetary/moon map screen are indeed an accurate reflection of what can be found there
  • Remember the rarer something is the more value it will naturally have. Increasing the relative abundance for upper tier resources will also act to devalue them and taken too far can detract from the whole purpose behind having resource tiers. The actual source of frustration here seems to be that players feel their scanning efforts (ie: time investment) are not being adequately rewarded. To address this we need a solution that allows NQ to regulate the RNG associated with territory scanning to be more in line with player efforts. Perhaps a similar effort based metric could be directed towards mining/maintaining higher value territories but this has many pros and cons that would need to be considered.
  • With regards to T1 Space fuel, Deckard already mentioned in the official discord that if all goes well, they are planning to add it to update 1.2 (see below)

image.png.50d3099ed170ce3014ea13b728958c68.png

 

Thank you.

It would be nice to have more specifics.

v/r,

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1 hour ago, Msoul said:

I just wanted to mention a few things:

  • The ores listed on the planetary/moon map screen are indeed an accurate reflection of what can be found there
  • Remember the rarer something is the more value it will naturally have. Increasing the relative abundance for upper tier resources will also act to devalue them and taken too far can detract from the whole purpose behind having resource tiers. The actual source of frustration here seems to be that players feel their scanning efforts (ie: time investment) are not being adequately rewarded. To address this we need a solution that allows NQ to regulate the RNG associated with territory scanning to be more in line with player efforts. Perhaps a similar effort based metric could be directed towards mining/maintaining higher value territories but this has many pros and cons that would need to be considered.
  • With regards to T1 Space fuel, Deckard already mentioned in the official discord that if all goes well, they are planning to add it to update 1.2 (see below)

image.png.50d3099ed170ce3014ea13b728958c68.png


Msoul, thank you for this information, so much info not communicated outside of select places which require 24/7 participation, and still may occur while you are sleeping.
I wasn't aware of this and I truly hope this come to fruition, and right now game play is very stifled by lack of access to T2, between tile consolidation and asteroids being gobbled up.

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18 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

 

In Dual Universe, you can for example:

  • Build a giant space station the size of a moon with your friends
  • Create an intergalactic political Empire
  • Gather along with thousands of others in player-made cities
  • Get hundreds of players inside space exploring ships
  • Mass-produce your custom designed ships to sell them in-game
  • Become a trader, a logistician or an industrialist
  • Program complex behaviors for your constructions
  • Live in a secret base 1km underground on a remote moon
  • Make a name as a spaceship designer or outpost architect

In other words, in Dual Universe, you can invent a new life for yourself in a world without limits, where almost anything is possible. We aim to make a massively multiplayer roleplaying sandbox on PC like never seen before.

 

- DU Kickstarter

 

Lets fix this to the present DU version:

 

  • Build a giant space station the size of a moon with your friends  _Sorry not possible
  • Create an intergalactic political Empire                                         -Possible   to a degree, but there is no real reason to do it
  • Gather along with thousands of others in player-made cities      -not possible, server cannot take that and there are no player made cities or cities in general
  • Get hundreds of players inside space exploring ships                  -exporing? not added/no feature yet
  • Mass-produce your custom designed ships to sell them in-game     -not possible, wel you can copy bp, get all stuff in inventory and poop out ships, but thats not what is writen here
  • Become a trader, a logistician or an industrialist                         - no reason in this version as all is limited and only npc missions make playing viable
  • Program complex behaviors for your constructions                    - a friend made an auto train, so yep possible
  • Live in a secret base 1km underground on a remote moon        - Might be possible, but can you keep it secret as all cores and players are visual
  • Make a name as a spaceship designer or outpost architect        - Possible

 

In other words, in Dual Universe, you can invent a new life for yourself in a world without limits, where almost anything is possible. We aim to make a massively multiplayer roleplaying sandbox on PC like never seen before.    -This however is not possible and close to being false: The world is filled with unrelentless limitations, invent a new life as a grinder for either one of the minigames and indeed like never seen before as all the features DU would get to make it overclass all other competitors have been cancelled or limited and by doing so all competitors outclass the current DU version.

 

 

Lets not forget! : :) 

 

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