Death of ore market?

[Pleione]

8 minutes ago, Jinxed said:

Speaking of death of ore market, has anyone had issues trying to sell ore?

 

\I often have a situation where even though I have 10k of Txxx ore in my ACTIVE container I am unable to create a sell order. The "amount" shows zero.

 

This game has sapped my confidence. I no longer know whether NQ are being NQ or I'm having a stroke and am doing something wrong.

 

This game is like the C++ version of Gaslighting.

 

 

Yes.  Frequently in the past.

 

Every time that has happened to me exiting the market and going back in fixed it.  Its too the point that I use J and create a fake sell order to figure out what price I want, then exit and use the actual market terminal to place the order.  That always works clean.

 

Oh, for what its worth, had ores sell around 9 overnight.  Hardly a celebration event, but still over 7. 4

[Aaron Cain]

have not flown a single mission and will not fly any soon unless the missions are players actually hiring me for something.

[Kezzle]

3 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

So stop doing missions

And then we won't have any Quanta, won't be able to make any Elements and will have nothing to do. May as well stop playing the game entirely... I'm sure that's what NQ want. Yeah. Definitely.

 

 

[Aaron Cain]

perfect response that shows the issue.

 

sandbox game is not viable without fake npc missions.

 

Any developer should have thought up a Much better sandbox solution then this. Also, scrap missions, scrap schematics and your almost at the point that it does not matter.

[ColonkinYT]

When I spoke about the danger of deflation, many "experts" told me that this is correct and you should not be afraid.
Now, when the cost of T1 ore makes senseless not only its extraction with the help of units, but even more senseless its extraction on asteroids. It's just not worth the time.
So what do you say "dear experts" now? Or are we waiting for an equilibrium price at T1 around 5? It is clear that over time the price may rise. A little bit. After that, it will again be driven into the corridor of unprofitability by over-accumulated volumes.
Did we want such a "player-controlled economy"?
And which of you now "regulates" something in it?
We have a day left to see what they will do with asteroid mining in patch 1.1.

 

P.S. By the way, we now have a clear example of what happens to the economies of countries when it is controlled by amateurs and supporters of the "free" market. Correctly. Nothing good.
The advantage is that, unlike RL, people will not go out the window here. They just stop playing.

[Aaron Cain]

2 hours ago, ColonkinYT said:

people will not go out the window here. They just stop playing.

 

Technically it has the same outcome. But your correct, as an amateur industrialist (since DU does not allow Pro-industrialists since 0.23) the low ore costs is perfect, but it's so stupid to have an overhead on taxes (schematic/hex) that press on element costs as the cost for this moment (current ore prices) are mainly based on schematic costs.

[ColonkinYT]

40 minutes ago, Aaron Cain said:

 

Technically it has the same outcome. But your correct, as an amateur industrialist (since DU does not allow Pro-industrialists since 0.23) the low ore costs is perfect, but it's so stupid to have an overhead on taxes (schematic/hex) that press on element costs as the cost for this moment (current ore prices) are mainly based on schematic costs.

In fact of the matter
First, the prices for schemes and taxes were balanced at the rate of 25 quantum/liter. And then it was cancelled. But since the cost of the schemes was not a percentage of the price, but had an absolute cost, we have a chain reaction of imbalance.
It is very stupid to take out the key stone from the foundation of the whole wall))). Especially not having made efforts to the general strengthening.
By analogy with construction - before global changes, you must first make temporary structures for support. So that the building does not collapse during the repair (by the way, I saw similar things in my professional activities).

[CptLoRes]

In RL there is no such thing as a functional 100% open economy (aka completely player driver economy).

Some countries are more open then others, but it is always governed to some degree to avoid runaway situations like we are now seeing in-game.

 

 

 

[Pleione]

21 hours ago, Kezzle said:

And then we won't have any Quanta, won't be able to make any Elements and will have nothing to do. May as well stop playing the game entirely... I'm sure that's what NQ want. Yeah. Definitely.

 

 

Yes - but think of the cost savings NQ can generate by not having to run servers!

[Maxim Kammerer]

49 minutes ago, Pleione said:

Yes - but think of the cost savings NQ can generate by not having to run servers!

 

If they run the irl business like the ingame economy this might indeed be the strategy.

[Novean-61657]

6 hours ago, ColonkinYT said:

First, the prices for schemes and taxes were balanced at the rate of 25 quantum/liter. And then it was cancelled.

a.) You're missing something in that line, the mission income (technically also the login rewards, but those are so low compared to the missions, that it is insignificant).

b.) No it wasn't 'balanced'! Way too much NPC quanta was entering the economy!

 

500k/tile/week for automining vs. 17500k/week for schematics. Even if you run 18 tiles/account (9000k/week), it's only half the cost of running full bore on schematics. While that automining would cost 9M/week, it would net 37.5M+ (with max talents) and no risk (npc order). While max schematics research would cost 17.5M and net ~35M, there were no skills, with risk (no npc orders). So automining was netting you a 317% profit, while schematics churning was only giving you a ~100% profit (If you made the right schematics)...

 

With the new schematics skills that might change to more like: 31.5M/week cost and ~175M/week revenue, a 556% return on investment, if you can ask twice the the unmodified cost of the schematic, which you won't be able to do when everyone is doing this... Again, no NPC orders, just now like for the T1 ore.

 

There are a couple of changes to the current setup vs. beta that have a significant impact on a LOT of stuff.

- Less T2+ tiles means less people mining those and more just mining T1 ore.

- Less planets that are more distant, again hitting us in the T2+ ore gonads.

- Less planets mean less locations for pirates to stake out, making mission high reward hauling in pvp space less appealing for many.

- High energy cost in large parts of Europe now also means many are not going to let an extra expensive machine running 16 hrs/day for mission running.

- High cost of schematics for every element made makes warping an expensive safe choice.

 

I have no hard numbers, but I get the distinct impression that beta veterans are now less active then they were during beta, thus consuming less resources.

I have no hard numbers, but I get the impression based on Steam and Haven tile numbers that the number of players left since launch isn't as high as it was during beta.

We're only two months into 'launch', with WAY MORE limitations then two months into 'beta', that means getting stuff is way more difficult. We didn't have taxes for tiles of schematics, so no loss of wealth to that. When those changes did show up, many of us where already wealthy, either in quanta or in pure ore/elements.

 

What happened now is that many people were expecting that NQ would 'fix' the 25q/L npc buy orders, Deckard even said so in a Q&A, during a stream. So people were stockpiling most of their ore, only selling a little to survive. When that took so long and eventually wasn't true (like so many times before), many people are dumping their entire stock. While people with a lot of quanta from production, mission-running or selling ships/BPCs, are now starting to buy up a LOT of ore for cheap. At Alioth Market 6 I'm already seeing multiple orders for buying 1-2 million liters of T1 ore per order.

 

Personally I'm almost done dismantling my T1 mining operation on Alioth. I'll be working on rebuilding my factory (again!) and earn quanta that way (for now), building some space ships, a space base or two, looking at doing some asteroid mining, maybe some mission running (if I can keep my RL power consumption down).

[ColonkinYT]

10 hours ago, Cergorach said:

a.) You're missing something in that line, the mission income (technically also the login rewards, but those are so low compared to the missions, that it is insignificant).

b.) No it wasn't 'balanced'! Way too much NPC quanta was entering the economy!

 

500k/tile/week for automining vs. 17500k/week for schematics. Even if you run 18 tiles/account (9000k/week), it's only half the cost of running full bore on schematics. While that automining would cost 9M/week, it would net 37.5M+ (with max talents) and no risk (npc order). While max schematics research would cost 17.5M and net ~35M, there were no skills, with risk (no npc orders). So automining was netting you a 317% profit, while schematics churning was only giving you a ~100% profit (If you made the right schematics)...

 

With the new schematics skills that might change to more like: 31.5M/week cost and ~175M/week revenue, a 556% return on investment, if you can ask twice the the unmodified cost of the schematic, which you won't be able to do when everyone is doing this... Again, no NPC orders, just now like for the T1 ore.

 

There are a couple of changes to the current setup vs. beta that have a significant impact on a LOT of stuff.

- Less T2+ tiles means less people mining those and more just mining T1 ore.

- Less planets that are more distant, again hitting us in the T2+ ore gonads.

- Less planets mean less locations for pirates to stake out, making mission high reward hauling in pvp space less appealing for many.

- High energy cost in large parts of Europe now also means many are not going to let an extra expensive machine running 16 hrs/day for mission running.

- High cost of schematics for every element made makes warping an expensive safe choice.

 

I have no hard numbers, but I get the distinct impression that beta veterans are now less active then they were during beta, thus consuming less resources.

I have no hard numbers, but I get the impression based on Steam and Haven tile numbers that the number of players left since launch isn't as high as it was during beta.

We're only two months into 'launch', with WAY MORE limitations then two months into 'beta', that means getting stuff is way more difficult. We didn't have taxes for tiles of schematics, so no loss of wealth to that. When those changes did show up, many of us where already wealthy, either in quanta or in pure ore/elements.

 

What happened now is that many people were expecting that NQ would 'fix' the 25q/L npc buy orders, Deckard even said so in a Q&A, during a stream. So people were stockpiling most of their ore, only selling a little to survive. When that took so long and eventually wasn't true (like so many times before), many people are dumping their entire stock. While people with a lot of quanta from production, mission-running or selling ships/BPCs, are now starting to buy up a LOT of ore for cheap. At Alioth Market 6 I'm already seeing multiple orders for buying 1-2 million liters of T1 ore per order.

 

Personally I'm almost done dismantling my T1 mining operation on Alioth. I'll be working on rebuilding my factory (again!) and earn quanta that way (for now), building some space ships, a space base or two, looking at doing some asteroid mining, maybe some mission running (if I can keep my RL power consumption down).

I would agree with you if not for one but.
The beta was needed in order to get the data, balance the parameters and catch the main bugs.
It is not correct to say that at the release they should hone and balance the main game mechanics.
In that case, let's call a spade a spade. It's not a release, it's Beta 2.
I understand that a lot of what goes on in the NQ office is hidden from us and it is possible that management is facing serious pressure from investors.
But you know. I don't care what happens in the bakery behind the wall. If I was sold bread, I have the right to demand that it be of high quality and not cause health problems. A low-quality product should not leave the walls and remain on the table at the quality control service.
Difficulties and lack of data do not justify such serious omissions. And diverse statements, for example, on MU and market bots, indicate that there was no final opinion on these issues a month ago.
The fact that alpha and beta players are less active is explained by the fact that the release does not meet the expectations of old players. And this is one of the most patient and loyal parts of the audience ira. Moreover, after the disappearance of market bots and nerf calibration, it also made it much more difficult for new players to start.
Understand. This is not criticism. It just hurts my soul. Otherwise, I wouldn't post on the forum at all. As do many of us.

[Novean-61657]

2 hours ago, ColonkinYT said:

In that case, let's call a spade a spade. It's not a release, it's Beta 2.

Heck, you're too forgiving! This is Alpha 3! 😉

 

But... As an Alpha player yourself, you were not sold a complete product, you were sold a potential product. As a Beta player, I was just sold a pack of lies... And that ties directly into why I think Alpha/Beta players are less active, that the game does not completely satisfy expectations (but enough to play it anyway) is only part of the problem. If you were playing during Alpha, you KNEW that everything would be wiped at beta launch. On the other hand NQ kept up the lie for 18 months that they would only wipe if necessary and then only what was necessary. A lot of players went into Beta with the expectation that what they build they would keep (one way or another), that didn't happen. So most are now two months into redoing what they did in beta, just doing it more efficiently, instead of having fun. And lets be honest, very few of the 'wealth' making game loops are anything but 'fun'... So things went from the fun exploration/discovery phase of beta, to the work of 'launch', with always that nagging feeling that NQ could wipe again or that real possibility that DU would just disappear completely. After two months of working DU, I get the distinct impression that we're right back at a state where we were in beta, an unbalanced economy due to bad decisions at NQ, exploits that are being fixed, but the damage not rolled back. etc.

[ColonkinYT]

32 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

Heck, you're too forgiving! This is Alpha 3! 😉

 

But... As an Alpha player yourself, you were not sold a complete product, you were sold a potential product. As a Beta player, I was just sold a pack of lies... And that ties directly into why I think Alpha/Beta players are less active, that the game does not completely satisfy expectations (but enough to play it anyway) is only part of the problem. If you were playing during Alpha, you KNEW that everything would be wiped at beta launch. On the other hand NQ kept up the lie for 18 months that they would only wipe if necessary and then only what was necessary. A lot of players went into Beta with the expectation that what they build they would keep (one way or another), that didn't happen. So most are now two months into redoing what they did in beta, just doing it more efficiently, instead of having fun. And lets be honest, very few of the 'wealth' making game loops are anything but 'fun'... So things went from the fun exploration/discovery phase of beta, to the work of 'launch', with always that nagging feeling that NQ could wipe again or that real possibility that DU would just disappear completely. After two months of working DU, I get the distinct impression that we're right back at a state where we were in beta, an unbalanced economy due to bad decisions at NQ, exploits that are being fixed, but the damage not rolled back. etc.

Yes, probably Alpha 3)))
But to be honest, neither in alpha nor in beta did I have such an oppressive feeling.
It's like I'm stuck in groundhog day.
Or the rat race.
Remembering my first experience in Eve, I just yearn for those times. But you cannot step into the same water twice.
I was hoping DU would have something similar. But we have had all the pleasures of exploration killed. Surprises and joys of finding or finding (starting with mining, ending with structural finds during the construction of ships).
All that's left is disappointment.
Naturally, this is not the case for new players. And for a while, they will be enthusiastic. But we (who were on alpha and beta) understand what they lost... Yes, let these mechanics load the servers. But it was still more interesting than what is now.
Our psyche is an interesting thing. We will always find our "golden" age for us. But even if we step aside, take a piece of paper and write down what we gained and lost, then I think that the result will be with a minus sign.

As for the speed of the "failure" of the economy. Now it has fallen much faster. Much faster. Even my pessimism was surprised.

[Aaron Cain]

Well since i scavenged about 30 starter hovers yesterday i dont think new players stick around long enough.