How to bring T1 bots back

[Pleione]

Sounds simple right?  Just place new bot orders at all markets.

 

But if that happens, the first people that log in after this occurs are going to become billionaires within an hour.  As of a few minutes ago "Highest Average" for Quartz was slightly below 10.  So I pop on immediately after the patch comes out, buy everything I can afford (say 10M worth) of quartz at 10 and immediately instant sell at 25 (now I have 25M), do it again using the 25M and I'm at 62.5M, again puts me at 156M, 4th time puts me at 390M - do for all 4 T1 ores and I'm at a handy 1.5B.  For maybe 1 hour of work.  So that would be a "oops" of epic order.

 

So Plan A:  The buy bots melt their servers and did this all within the first minutes of coming up - buying up all orders under 25 and paying the asked selling price?  Fair?  Not really - if they had announced ahead of time the return of the bots many would cancel their <25 orders and wait for their ore to be worth several times as much. 

 

So Plan B:  They announce in advance that on November 24th (my birthday!) that the bots are going to be coming on and paying 25 once again... and the rich instantly buy up as much ore as possible.  Rich get richer, which is never popular, but at least the price of ore would recover quickly.  Better than Plan A, but still not ideal.

 

So Plan C:  They freeze all T1 ore sell orders and then proceed with Plan B.  Great for anyone that is paying attention, some will get burned "I needed that sale!  My territories shutdown and now I'm screwed!!!"

 

Maybe Plan D:  The buy bots melt their servers and buy up all T1 ore <=25 and pay 25 per unit?  Hmmm... getting better.  Happens at some future UNANNOUNCED (no leaks guys... really REALLY) time, perhaps without even a patch being issued.  I like this, but might require coding... maybe... unless the current buy bots are hard coded to pay 25 and to search for sell orders under that.

 

I think that leaves us with Plan E:   Code the bots to pay 25 and to scape the markets for any sell orders of T1s at or below 25.  Implement that code in a future patch.  Test that code by enabling a bot order for a few thousand in ores at one slow market where it can be carefully monitored.  If it works, try again on a bigger order.  Test a few markets.  If all is well, run a date through the RNG code, and then implement buy orders for 100B units of ore by running some script that does so on ALL markets within seconds.  Announce the change and the method used so that all understand.  

 

So my vote is Plan E:  People rejoice.  Fear of a crashing economy evaporate.  Orders for products skyrocket due to an influx  of unexpected cash.  Inflation runs rampant, but such is life.  Hmmm, almost sounds like RL and Covid payments...

 

ps.  As long as your messing with the bot code, have it auto-renew anytime the purchase level falls below 100M ore.  And if, gasp, this was somehow all set up by hand instead of being automated - time to write that bot!

[GraXXoR]

Wow. Someone actually proposing several workable alternatives instead of just complaining. Incredible. 
 

any which way you cut it, those who have banked 5000000 liters of T1 may well strike it rich if they are online when the orders are refreshed. 

[ColonkinYT]

This is an example of how a small problem grows into a huge one due to the fact that it is not solved ...
(I mean the decrease in the price of T1 and then the resumption of purchases by bots)

[Leniver]

The problem could be very simply solved, cancel all order below 25q from players and put the bots back.

 

UPDATE sell_orders SET end_date = '2022-11-01 00:00' WHERE item_id IN (4234772167,3724036288,299255727,262147665) AND price < 25

 

DELETE sell_orders WHERE owner = {aphilia_id}

INSERT INTO sell_orders (end_date,price,quantity,item_id,market_id,owner) VALUES ('2023-11-01 00:00', 25, 10000000, 4234772167, {alioth_market_01_id}, {aphilia_id})
INSERT INTO sell_orders (end_date,price,quantity,item_id,market_id,owner) VALUES ('2023-11-01 00:00', 25, 10000000, 3724036288, {alioth_market_01_id}, {aphilia_id})
INSERT INTO sell_orders (end_date,price,quantity,item_id,market_id,owner) VALUES ('2023-11-01 00:00', 25, 10000000, 299255727, {alioth_market_01_id}, {aphilia_id})
INSERT INTO sell_orders (end_date,price,quantity,item_id,market_id,owner) VALUES ('2023-11-01 00:00', 25, 10000000, 262147665, {alioth_market_01_id}, {aphilia_id})

 

Deckard said it was a bug that bots were not updating, they should fix it then....

[ColonkinYT]

10 minutes ago, Leniver said:

The problem could be very simply solved, cancel all order below 25q from players and put the bots back.

 

UPDATE sell_orders SET end_date = '2022-11-01 00:00' WHERE item_id IN (4234772167,3724036288,299255727,262147665) AND price < 25

 

DELETE sell_orders WHERE owner = {aphilia_id}

INSERT INTO sell_orders (end_date,price,quantity,item_id,market_id,owner) VALUES ('2023-11-01 00:00', 25, 10000000, 4234772167, {alioth_market_01_id}, {aphilia_id})
INSERT INTO sell_orders (end_date,price,quantity,item_id,market_id,owner) VALUES ('2023-11-01 00:00', 25, 10000000, 3724036288, {alioth_market_01_id}, {aphilia_id})
INSERT INTO sell_orders (end_date,price,quantity,item_id,market_id,owner) VALUES ('2023-11-01 00:00', 25, 10000000, 299255727, {alioth_market_01_id}, {aphilia_id})
INSERT INTO sell_orders (end_date,price,quantity,item_id,market_id,owner) VALUES ('2023-11-01 00:00', 25, 10000000, 262147665, {alioth_market_01_id}, {aphilia_id})

 

Deckard said it was a bug that bots were not updating, they should fix it then....

Cancel it is also not the best solution.
Why the transaction was not automatically closed if the purchase price on the market is higher than the sale price is not clear.
Suppose, when placing buy orders, all sell orders below 25 quantum were automatically satisfied. Naturally at the sale price)).
And everyone is happy...

[Atmosph3rik]

I just hope that whatever NQ decides to do.  They do it as loudly and transparently as possible.

 

Nothing sucks the fun out of a game for me, like the feeling that by playing the game, and having fun, i'm putting myself at a disadvantage.  And the only way to "play" the game properly, is to lurk on the forums and Discord trying to predict what decision or bug is going to upset the economy next.

 

 

  

[Aaron Cain]

20 hours ago, Leniver said:

Deckard said it was a bug that bots were not updating, they should fix it then....

 

A bug that takes forever, and to add to that surface ores are not renewed so new players cannot even Get ores if they want too as a bunch of it is already gone, some of us grinded through whole systems/moons/planets/hexes/etc.

 

If the problem is quanta, then what bots will help, but after that there still is no free ore and almost nothing really good for sale at good prices. adding ores on a cycle will give new blood atleast ores to play with.

[blundertwink]

I think NQ has a weird obsession with the economy -- what matters most is creating engaging gameplay that will retain new players. That's always the first goal for an MMO that's struggling to grow and retain players. 

 

The economy is meant to be a tool to help drive engagement..."balancing" the economy or trying to prevent some people from getting too rich isn't meant to be the main goal for any design. The game doesn't magically become engaging just because the economy is "balanced"...

 

Video game economies aren't real economies and they never will act like them...people talk about sinks and faucets a lot in terms of gameplay, but the biggest sink in any MMO is churn rate.

 

What percent of items or currency in any given MMO get hoarded into people's inventories or banks never to be touched again because the player unsubs...? I'd wager a huge majority. In real life, people's participation in the economy isn't exactly optional short of fleeing into the woods with a hatchet. 

 

If NQ is really worried that refreshing bots will print too much money, they should check their churn rates...

 

And really who even cares...? At this point, having a "balanced" economy shouldn't be their main goal, attracting and retaining new players should be their only concern. 

[Dixiii]

Simple solution - when BOTs appear, they just buy all current orders that are 24.75h and less, at offered price.

 

No one get extra money, no chance to get instantly rich by doing buy-sell-repeat.

It looks like plan A in original post. And I see no problems at all. NQ said already: BOTs will return some day. Those who hold ore will sell it at 25. Those who have active orders are ready to sell at their price.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Dixiii

[Haunty]

Ideally bot T1 should have artificial supply/demand like many other trading games, instead of being totally fixed at all markets.

[Bobbie]

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[Atmosph3rik]

10 hours ago, Dixiii said:

Simple solution - when BOTs appear, they just buy all current orders that are 24.75h and less, at offered price.

 

This still creates a situation where anyone who accurately predicts when the bots will appear, has the opportunity to buy as much ore as possible and double their money overnight.

 

And anyone who's just been stockpiling their ore will get to sell it all at 25.

 

But anyone who's just been minding their own business and trying to enjoy the game, gets left out in the cold.

 

I figure anyone who's selling T1 at 10/L right now probably doesn't even know about the bots.  And they're probably going to be a bit disappointed to find out that they should have been waiting on the bots to come back, instead of selling their ore.

 

This doesn't seem like a great way to treat new players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pleione]

31 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

This still creates a situation where anyone who accurately predicts when the bots will appear, has the opportunity to buy as much ore as possible and double their money overnight.

 

And anyone who's just been stockpiling their ore will get to sell it all at 25.

 

But anyone who's just been minding their own business and trying to enjoy the game, gets left out in the cold.

 

I figure anyone who's selling T1 at 10/L right now probably doesn't even know about the bots.  And they're probably going to be a bit disappointed to find out that they should have been waiting on the bots to come back, instead of selling their ore.

 

This doesn't seem like a great way to treat new players.

 

Which is why I proposed that Plan B above wasn't ideal...

[ColonkinYT]

16 hours ago, blundertwink said:

I think NQ has a weird obsession with the economy -- what matters most is creating engaging gameplay that will retain new players. That's always the first goal for an MMO that's struggling to grow and retain players. 

 

The economy is meant to be a tool to help drive engagement..."balancing" the economy or trying to prevent some people from getting too rich isn't meant to be the main goal for any design. The game doesn't magically become engaging just because the economy is "balanced"...

 

Video game economies aren't real economies and they never will act like them...people talk about sinks and faucets a lot in terms of gameplay, but the biggest sink in any MMO is churn rate.

 

What percent of items or currency in any given MMO get hoarded into people's inventories or banks never to be touched again because the player unsubs...? I'd wager a huge majority. In real life, people's participation in the economy isn't exactly optional short of fleeing into the woods with a hatchet. 

 

If NQ is really worried that refreshing bots will print too much money, they should check their churn rates...

 

And really who even cares...? At this point, having a "balanced" economy shouldn't be their main goal, attracting and retaining new players should be their only concern. 

Why economics? Because there is nothing else in the game at the moment.
Core gamepaly is mining, building, selling.
So far there is nothing more.
You are absolutely right that there are no more game mechanics and goals. Apparently at first they thought that the players themselves would work as game masters for free. But we know that this is not so.
There are no points of interest with player control (similar to stations in eve. There is no tax system within corporations at all.
And most importantly, people who want to shoot have nothing to warm up with (there are no crazy bots for shooting and completing missions).
All this points to global miscalculations on the part of game design.

[Aaron Cain]

Frankly I am more worried that the known issues are pretty static on all updates, how many patches are needed before a known issue is a feature?

 

But new players are probably helped more with renewable surface ores as with the bots. Didnt we want a player driven economy?

 

[RugesV]

You guys are trying to create a solution to a non existent problem.  There is what ~5 million liters of quarts for sell at less then 24 quanta a L. With an average of about ~20 qunta a liter. So even if a player bought every single bit of it and resold it to the bots at 25. thats only a 5 quanta profit. So they would only be making 25 Million quanta for every bit of quartz that is being sold. 

 

Stop worrying about how much quanta is in other peoples wallets and worry more about what you can do with how much quanta you have in your own wallet. 

[Bobbie]

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[Wyndle]

8 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

This still creates a situation where anyone who accurately predicts when the bots will appear, has the opportunity to buy as much ore as possible and double their money overnight.

 

And anyone who's just been stockpiling their ore will get to sell it all at 25.

 

But anyone who's just been minding their own business and trying to enjoy the game, gets left out in the cold.

 

I figure anyone who's selling T1 at 10/L right now probably doesn't even know about the bots.  And they're probably going to be a bit disappointed to find out that they should have been waiting on the bots to come back, instead of selling their ore.

 

This doesn't seem like a great way to treat new players.

 

Prediction is only involved if you're trying to time it.  The newest players not in experienced orgs are the ones hurt the most by the current situation because they'll try to play the game the way it has been described.  Sources of income for a new solo player:  auto miner ore to sell, surface ore to sell, challenges (frustrating WHEN available), and the lowest tier missions.  It isn't just a bad way to treat new players, it all but ensures the vast majority will cancel their subs.

 

5 hours ago, ColonkinYT said:

Why economics? Because there is nothing else in the game at the moment.
Core gamepaly is mining, building, selling.
So far there is nothing more.
You are absolutely right that there are no more game mechanics and goals. Apparently at first they thought that the players themselves would work as game masters for free. But we know that this is not so.
There are no points of interest with player control (similar to stations in eve. There is no tax system within corporations at all.
And most importantly, people who want to shoot have nothing to warm up with (there are no crazy bots for shooting and completing missions).
All this points to global miscalculations on the part of game design.

 

All iterations of mining currently in game are absurdly un-rewarding.  Building just to build will only last so long before boredom sets in.  If only mission runners and pirates are supporting the economy then you either build stuff THEY want or you don't sell, and odds are against you filling their needs even by accident if you've never done those activities yourself.

 

13 minutes ago, RugesV said:

You guys are trying to create a solution to a non existent problem.  There is what ~5 million liters of quarts for sell at less then 24 quanta a L. With an average of about ~20 qunta a liter. So even if a player bought every single bit of it and resold it to the bots at 25. thats only a 5 quanta profit. So they would only be making 25 Million quanta for every bit of quartz that is being sold. 

 

Stop worrying about how much quanta is in other peoples wallets and worry more about what you can do with how much quanta you have in your own wallet. 

 

It is very much a real problem.  You're looking at the quantification of the maths without the context of what the numbers represent.  A mass-transfer of wealth caused by a conglomeration of poor design and bugs not caught during the prior years of development could be the final nail in the coffin for DU.

[RugesV]

25 minutes ago, Wyndle said:

 

It is very much a real problem.  You're looking at the quantification of the maths without the context of what the numbers represent.  A mass-transfer of wealth caused by a conglomeration of poor design and bugs not caught during the prior years of development could be the final nail in the coffin for DU.

Except its not a mass transfer of wealth. Where talking about transfering $25 Million in quanta for quartz.  Under $1 million for Coal.  Bauxite a tad less then Quartz and Hematite a bit less then that.   So between all the ores, someone could make a one time money transfer of ~100 Million quanta.  And its probably going to be several someones. These are small numbers.  There are ships being sold ingame for higher amounts then this.  This is a non issue. 

 

Now if you want to talk about bot prices in general. Sure talk about that. But even that is not to far off. If every player that was selling T1 ore swaped out to hualing mission running, they would be bringing more quanta into the game then they currently are selling T1 to bots. 

[Wyndle]

12 minutes ago, RugesV said:

Except its not a mass transfer of wealth. Where talking about transfering $25 Million in quanta for quartz.  Under $1 million for Coal.  Bauxite a tad less then Quartz and Hematite a bit less then that.   So between all the ores, someone could make a one time money transfer of ~100 Million quanta.  And its probably going to be several someones. These are small numbers.  There are ships being sold ingame for higher amounts then this.  This is a non issue. 

 

Now if you want to talk about bot prices in general. Sure talk about that. But even that is not to far off. If every player that was selling T1 ore swaped out to hualing mission running, they would be bringing more quanta into the game then they currently are selling T1 to bots. 

A mass-transfer of wealth doesn't mean moving a massive volume of money, it means taking from the many for the benefit of a few already atop the pile.  If you want to hyper-focus on the quantification that's your right but numbers alone will not tell the whole story.  There are several key, non-numeric principles that exist in the foundation of an economy that are at imminent risk of being irrevocably harmed in this scenario.  Some of those same principles were alluded to in the justification(s) for wipe that NQ made public as well as in other public communications.

 

The fact that DU is in the situation where everyone is by default forced into one specific activity is antithetical to the concept of a sandbox.

[RugesV]

There is what 103 markets in  the world. With every market buying 10,000,000L of ore at 25. If all those orders where satisfied. that would instill 103,000,000,000 quanta into the game.  Now there is about 25,000 claimed tiles that are not on haven or sanctuary, now some of those are going to be HQ tiles so no taxes paid. Say ~18,000 are paying taxes.  Meaning 9,000,000,000 quanta is leaving the game every week due to taxes.  Meaning 10 weeks and the game should run out of money to pay for tiles.  Granted, stuff like the space mission and hauling missions and daily login still bring quanta into the game. So its not like its going to collapse in 10 weeks.  But at the same time T1 bot orders are not going to destroy the economy.  We have not even considered schematic costs and market costs that also remove quanta from the game. 

 

Its not a doomsday if 1 player has 100,000,000,000 in there account. But it is a doomsday if 90% of the player base only has 100,000 quanta every day. 

[kulkija]

13 minutes ago, RugesV said:

There is what 103 markets in  the world. With every market buying 10,000,000L of ore at 25. If all those orders where satisfied. that would instill 103,000,000,000 quanta into the game.  Now there is about 25,000 claimed tiles that are not on haven or sanctuary, now some of those are going to be HQ tiles so no taxes paid. Say ~18,000 are paying taxes.  Meaning 9,000,000,000 quanta is leaving the game every week due to taxes.  Meaning 10 weeks and the game should run out of money to pay for tiles.  Granted, stuff like the space mission and hauling missions and daily login still bring quanta into the game. So its not like its going to collapse in 10 weeks.  But at the same time T1 bot orders are not going to destroy the economy.  We have not even considered schematic costs and market costs that also remove quanta from the game. 

 

Its not a doomsday if 1 player has 100,000,000,000 in there account. But it is a doomsday if 90% of the player base only has 100,000 quanta every day. 

 

Problem is not about Bots buying no more. It is about heavy Territory taxation.

#Du_IRS_simulator

 

[GraXXoR]

27 minutes ago, RugesV said:

There is what 103 markets in  the world. With every market buying 10,000,000L of ore at 25. If all those orders where satisfied. that would instill 103,000,000,000 quanta into the game.  Now there is about 25,000 claimed tiles that are not on haven or sanctuary, now some of those are going to be HQ tiles so no taxes paid. Say ~18,000 are paying taxes.  Meaning 9,000,000,000 quanta is leaving the game every week due to taxes.  Meaning 10 weeks and the game should run out of money to pay for tiles.  Granted, stuff like the space mission and hauling missions and daily login still bring quanta into the game. So its not like its going to collapse in 10 weeks.  But at the same time T1 bot orders are not going to destroy the economy.  We have not even considered schematic costs and market costs that also remove quanta from the game. 

 

Its not a doomsday if 1 player has 100,000,000,000 in there account. But it is a doomsday if 90% of the player base only has 100,000 quanta every day. 

 

That is making the assumption that nobody is buying schematics... One single L core schematic costs 725,000 ℏ. building 10 L core constructs removes 7.25 MILLION ℏ from the game.

That is a lot of spitty (censored apparently!!) missions required to run just to build something decent.

 

Considering this game ONLY has building, it's like trying to use  a CAD program but having to Fugg (Also censored) around with a random feature every hour in order to keep doing what you want to do.

Now, if those sub processes were in any way fun it would be considered "playing the game" but the fact is the DU PVE content is about as fun as a colonoscopy. 

[kulkija]

1 minute ago, Jinxed said:

 

That is making the assumption that nobody is buying schematics... One single L core schematic costs 725,000 ℏ.

Ups. I forgot those schematic  fees
#Du_the_greatest_IRS_simulator_of_all_times

[Zeddrick]

This is overthinking the problem IMO.  Just:

 

  - put up bot orders so big that all the ore in the game can sell into them and there is still some left.

 

 - cancel all ore sell orders at the same time.

 

 - don't tell anyone it's coming.

 

 

Seems like it would be fair and really easy.

 

 

Or just don't put up bot orders at all.  Better still make a clone of Aegis market in the PvP zone and put them there to generate content and challenge.