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NQ, are you removing shopping bots from T1?


Messaline
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Salut,

 

La question est dans le titre !
Avez-vous prévu autre chose pour les nouveaux joueurs et même les anciens qui n'ont besoin que de quelques quantas ?

Ne me dites pas qu'ils devraient faire ceci ou cela, rejoindre une organisation, etc.
" Répondez simplement à la question "

--

 

Desolé pour cette traduction Google Trad. 

Edited by Messaline
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8 minutes ago, Messaline said:

Salut,

 

La question est dans le titre !
Avez-vous prévu autre chose pour les nouveaux joueurs et même les anciens qui n'ont besoin que de quelques quantas ?

Ne me dites pas qu'ils devraient faire ceci ou cela, rejoindre une organisation, etc.
" Répondez simplement à la question
"

--

 

Desolé pour cette traduction Google Trad. 

You probably won't get an answer here.
But bots are not removed. They just run out of orders.
I think that many will have to come to terms with this and are preparing to sell T1 ore at 10 and below...
As for earning coins, very limited missions await us...

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9 minutes ago, Messaline said:

Hello,
Thank you for your comment, it remains in abeyance the "when" will they be operational?

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Exhausted buy orders from Aphelia will not renew. At least that's how it was in beta.
These warrants were introduced in order to supply the economy with initial money.

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If ore bot orders are not replaced, one wonders how tile tax can be paid for from the ore it produces.

 

Of course the problem with letting the buy orders expire and then bringing them back, is that prices fall, people buy low, and then sell everything once they come back for instant profit, and the sell orders are gone again. (Yes this happened in beta.)

 

So better to either keep infinite orders at the buy price (lots of quanta in the system eventually), or let them expire and never come back (and let the attrition from people being unable to afford tile upkeep take its toll).

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2 hours ago, ColonkinYT said:

Exhausted buy orders from Aphelia will not renew. At least that's how it was in beta.
These warrants were introduced in order to supply the economy with initial money.

That is not completely true I seem to remember, there were certain points during beta that some bot orders were refreshed, while others were removed completely (like those for intermediary products). The question becomes, will NQ refresh those same orders during some event or patch? And even if they say NO now, they have a history of doing YES later...

 

But I saw this weekend that the Quartz NPC buy ordere were almost completely gone (800k left at one market)... So it's a bit of a moot point, unless NQ in their infinite wisdom resets the NPC buy orders (intentional or otherwise)...

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1 hour ago, Distinct Mint said:

If ore bot orders are not replaced, one wonders how tile tax can be paid for from the ore it produces.

 

Of course the problem with letting the buy orders expire and then bringing them back, is that prices fall, people buy low, and then sell everything once they come back for instant profit, and the sell orders are gone again. (Yes this happened in beta.)

 

So better to either keep infinite orders at the buy price (lots of quanta in the system eventually), or let them expire and never come back (and let the attrition from people being unable to afford tile upkeep take its toll).

You speak correctly. But there are missions specifically for the alternative supply of the economy with quants. It's just that instead of mining, we will have to fly on missions to pay for the tiles. Well, let's not forget the challenges either.
I understand your dissatisfaction.
But there is a conflict of interest here. Production workers are interested in making bot orders disappear as quickly as possible. This will allow them to buy cheaper. Pay attention to the prices for the same hematite in the markets where the order to buy has already been exhausted. ))

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32 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

That is not completely true I seem to remember, there were certain points during beta that some bot orders were refreshed, while others were removed completely (like those for intermediary products). The question becomes, will NQ refresh those same orders during some event or patch? And even if they say NO now, they have a history of doing YES later...

 

But I saw this weekend that the Quartz NPC buy ordere were almost completely gone (800k left at one market)... So it's a bit of a moot point, unless NQ in their infinite wisdom resets the NPC buy orders (intentional or otherwise)...

Don't forget that we survived wipe in beta.

And then there were no missions. And in fact, they had to go for it so that there would be an influx of quanta into the game.

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Just to clarify, I believe the bot orders are suppose to refresh. If they are not then that is most likely a bug as stated by NQ-Rubicon in the discord a few days ago. Yes there is always the potential that things could change but I caution you not to make any premature conclusions. Right now the bot buy orders are one of the most popular quanta sources for players and they also help to remove excess ore from the economy. I think it makes more sense to keep them around but I also don't disagree that we could technically survive without them.

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26 minutes ago, Msoul said:

Just to clarify, I believe the bot orders are suppose to refresh. If they are not then that is most likely a bug as stated by NQ-Rubicon in the discord a few days ago. Yes there is always the potential that things could change but I caution you not to make any premature conclusions. Right now the bot buy orders are one of the most popular quanta sources for players and they also help to remove excess ore from the economy. I think it makes more sense to keep them around but I also don't disagree that we could technically survive without them.

You understand what's the matter. DU is too straightforward and oppresses some at the expense of others.
If we talk about purchase orders for bots, then why such a loss of rights regarding production workers and pvp fighters? Why buy only ore?
If we are talking about MMOs, then it is logical that people will have specialties. According to your preferences. Why then only miners are encouraged?
I think developers should think about this.

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Quanta is created when certain activities are performed and is eventually consumed via taxes or element destruction. What happens in-between is largely dictated by players. The ore buy orders associated with the mining profession is currently one of the few direct quanta sources. However players that use this method alone are then left with nothing but quanta and in theory will then spend it on purchasing goods/services from other players. That player driven demand for goods and services is largely what makes the DU economy function. Yes, in theory the other professions (production, pvp, etc) could also be subsidized with specific bot buy and sell orders but doing so could take away some of that control from the playerbase and introduce a variety of other problems. The ultimate goal of an MMO is to encourage player interactions and so to avoid infringing on that I think any additional buy/sell orders beyond T1 ore needs to be introduced very carefully and made inferior to whatever player demand is at that present time. Ideally thou, it is not needed at all and that role gets directly filled by players specializing in said resource. 

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47 minutes ago, Msoul said:

 The ultimate goal of an MMO is to encourage player interactions and so to avoid infringing on that I think any additional buy/sell orders beyond T1 ore needs to be introduced very carefully and made inferior to whatever player demand is at that present time.

In most MMOs, almost everything has a vendor price, especially player crafted items.

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2 hours ago, ColonkinYT said:

Why then only miners are encouraged?

 

Without mining, sooner or later there would be no other gameplay anymore. Anything in this game is made of ore - including industry units for production workers and ships for pvp fighters. If miners stop mining than everything else will collaps as well. They will stop mining if ore doesn't pay the tax anymore. Thus, as long as tax is fixed, minimum ore prices need to be fixed as well. The only way to fix it are bot orders. That is not encouraging miners but a logical consequence of a design decision. Either ther is a player driven economy or not. And NQ decided for not.

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56 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

 

Without mining, sooner or later there would be no other gameplay anymore. Anything in this game is made of ore - including industry units for production workers and ships for pvp fighters. If miners stop mining than everything else will collaps as well. They will stop mining if ore doesn't pay the tax anymore. Thus, as long as tax is fixed, minimum ore prices need to be fixed as well. The only way to fix it are bot orders. That is not encouraging miners but a logical consequence of a design decision. Either ther is a player driven economy or not. And NQ decided for not.

 

Some people would say that your "collapse" situation would be fixed by a "free market". As the supply of ore from miners drops, due to miners going "out of business", the price that the people using the ore will have to pay to secure the scarce resource will need to rise to cover the miners' costs. There will be some casualties in the supply chain, obviously, but that's the unregulated free market for you: Darwinian.

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7 hours ago, Kezzle said:

There will be some casualties in the supply chain, obviously, but that's the unregulated free market for you: Darwinian.

 

This kind of thing always makes me laugh.  The casualties and misery resulting from every time the free market is fck'd with have been staggering.  While the unregulated free markets are a great thing, I'm not sure anyone would suggest it can fix poor game design. 

 

However, in real life, the market will have a solution for DU.  Sadly, it won't be one that anyone will like.

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We just need to remember that the "free" market is not a soulless machine, not some kind of evil or good genie.
It's the same as we are all players who sometimes bring the situation to the point of absurdity.
Therefore, there is no "free" market anywhere in the real world. They are always regulated. So that bankrupts are not thrown out of the windows again.

P.S. I have already stopped myself several times so as not to write about the money that players could issue. Well, to have quite an "economy" created by the players. Because I know how it will end. I watched in EVE online how banks and lotteries were born and fell)))

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On 10/18/2022 at 4:04 PM, ColonkinYT said:

Exhausted buy orders from Aphelia will not renew. At least that's how it was in beta.
These warrants were introduced in order to supply the economy with initial money.

 

If this is true, then the game cannot survive in its current form.

 

Within a month or two the bot sales will be gone and whole game will be reduced to a total influx of 1 Bℏ per day (assuming a generous 10k daily entities -players and their alts- with alts @ 100k ℏ each) plus a few NPC missions for those desperate enough.

 

That's not going to go far... think about it tax for the 13,000 tiles on Alioth alone assuming they have industry or mining will account for 6.5Bℏ per week consumption, leaving only 500Mℏ per week of ℏ influx or thereabouts between all entities... so if we say 10k entities, that's about 50k ℏ per week per player...  Enough for ONE 750kℏ L core schematic about once every 15 weeks.

 

Even modest schematics costs outweigh the influx of ℏ by such a ridiculous margin that development will likely all but cease once the 30 Bℏ (30 markets, 1B ℏ of T1 ore per market) of initial ore bot gained ℏ is consumed which it likely already mostly has been.


I just don't see how this "economy" can survive that kind of ℏ starvation...

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56 minutes ago, Jinxed said:

 

 

If this is true, then the game cannot survive in its current form.

 

Within a month or two the bot sales will be gone and whole game will be reduced to a total influx of 1 Bℏ per day (assuming a generous 10k daily entities -players and their alts- with alts @ 100k ℏ each) plus a few NPC missions for those desperate enough.

 

That's not going to go far... think about it tax for the 13,000 tiles on Alioth alone assuming they have industry or mining will account for 6.5Bℏ per week consumption, leaving only 500Mℏ per week of ℏ influx or thereabouts between all entities... so if we say 10k entities, that's about 50k ℏ per week per player...  Enough for ONE 750kℏ L core schematic about once every 15 weeks.

 

Even modest schematics costs outweigh the influx of ℏ by such a ridiculous margin that development will likely all but cease once the 30 Bℏ (30 markets, 1B ℏ of T1 ore per market) of initial ore bot gained ℏ is consumed which it likely already mostly has been.


I just don't see how this "economy" can survive that kind of ℏ starvation...

I understand that very well.
As well as what an under-monetized economy is. When money becomes the most valuable thing and not goods. This leads to deflation. And getting out of deflation is much harder than getting out of inflation.
But in your reasoning, you forget about missions that can bring serious income.
As for tiles, there are also options. If there is no mining industry on the tile and only production, then you can pay for it once every 3 weeks. Which also saves a lot of money.
In general, I agree with you. However, in NQ economists. And we passed...

 

P.S. There are options here. NQ can see how the economy will behave without bots and, if necessary, periodically return them for money interventions.

Edited by ColonkinYT
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On 10/18/2022 at 9:31 AM, Distinct Mint said:

If ore bot orders are not replaced, one wonders how tile tax can be paid for from the ore it produces.

 

With calibrations!  Shut down all but one of your tiles, move all the mining units to one tile and do calibrations on them.  You will have one tile tax to pay no matter how many people you share the tile with.

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1 hour ago, Zeddrick said:

With calibrations!  Shut down all but one of your tiles, move all the mining units to one tile and do calibrations on them.  You will have one tile tax to pay no matter how many people you share the tile with.

If you're only using calibration, you only need one MU.

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On 10/18/2022 at 9:04 AM, ColonkinYT said:

Exhausted buy orders from Aphelia will not renew. At least that's how it was in beta.
These warrants were introduced in order to supply the economy with initial money.

 

nice gaslight but you wont twist this game in what you wish it to be either

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On 10/19/2022 at 2:21 AM, Kezzle said:

 

Some people would say that your "collapse" situation would be fixed by a "free market". As the supply of ore from miners drops, due to miners going "out of business", the price that the people using the ore will have to pay to secure the scarce resource will need to rise to cover the miners' costs. There will be some casualties in the supply chain, obviously, but that's the unregulated free market for you: Darwinian.


This is the sort of “Hollywood movie economics” I see everywhere these days. It’s shown to be so laughably wrong in the modern day that even applying it to a game is kind of ridiculous. 
 

It used to work it the fifties and sixties when there were dozens of innovative companies in each region fighting for your attention. 
 

but there is no reason for this to function in an economy where consolidating at scale always wins and mergers and the subsequent monopolies in each field are de rigueur; because the market is no longer free but instead directed and controlled by a tiny cartel. 
 

Just look at the “Right to Repair” movement for an example of a market moving AWAY from what a truly competitive market with a hundred competitors would achieve. 
 

if players were the only source of schematics and aphelia schematics did not exist, things might work a little better but currently, schematics combined with taxes constantly remove so much money out of the economy that the economy would enter a deflationary death spiral in no time. 
 

10,000 players add 7B ℏ per week in stipend but the 13,000 tiles on Alioth (assuming they are productive) drain 6,5B ℏ per week already leaving almost nothing if we remove ores. 
 

if ores disappear the the game’s expansion will all but stop. 
 

“but ore price will rise if supply drops”

— and there is the cusp of your misunderstanding. 
 

there will be no money to purchase the ore. 
 

 

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11 hours ago, Kezzle said:

If you're only using calibration, you only need one MU.

Which is clearly a nonsense and broken system. That an org only needs a single tile with 1L of each of the four T1 ores to survive is clearly not what the developers intended. Sure they don’t count it as an exploit (calibration charges Yada Yada) but it is pretty much game breaking. 

 

TLDR:

That 10 players can somehow get 200kL of ore per day from a 1L per hour tile even using a single size S mining unit is a stupid game mechanic. 

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15 hours ago, Jinxed said:

Which is clearly a nonsense and broken system. That an org only needs a single tile with 1L of each of the four T1 ores to survive is clearly not what the developers intended. Sure they don’t count it as an exploit (calibration charges Yada Yada) but it is pretty much game breaking. 

 

TLDR:

That 10 players can somehow get 200kL of ore per day from a 1L per hour tile even using a single size S mining unit is a stupid game mechanic. 

100% this!

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