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Exploit with mining units


DannyUK
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1 hour ago, ColonkinYT said:

So it will be. The crisis of overproduction ends with this. And if T1 and T2 ore has somewhere to be disposed of, then starting from T3 and higher, the need for it is greatly reduced.
But I'm afraid that in 2 weeks the price of T1 ore will drop to 10-15 quants per liter.

 

If the T1 market buy bots are definitely going away.
With all the taxes, buying schematic quantas will have far more important uses than buying things from markets.

Besides, he doesn't even seem to need to pay the tax on his 1l tile of T4/T5 to take advantage of the calibration ore spawn?

In addition, there is still no turf war or atmospheric war that would allow via PvP fear to limit a substantial supply of high-end resources.

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I didn't take into account any alts that maybe used to do this also. People don't really pay subscriptions on multiple accounts do they? I don't think I could throw money away like that unless I was super rich.

 

I still think it should be changed though to stop this happening, hopefully they come up with another method that is more better than it is now.

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25 minutes ago, DannyUK said:

I didn't take into account any alts that maybe used to do this also. People don't really pay subscriptions on multiple accounts do they? I don't think I could throw money away like that unless I was super rich.

Some people have DAC from the Kickstarter, others are buying that DAC with ingame quanta, others paid less then €60/year/account during early beta and bought a couple of years for that price... I'm curious what the account 'population' will do when all the DACs and the cheap 'prepaid' subscriptions run out...

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29 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

Some people have DAC from the Kickstarter, others are buying that DAC with ingame quanta, others paid less then €60/year/account during early beta and bought a couple of years for that price... I'm curious what the account 'population' will do when all the DACs and the cheap 'prepaid' subscriptions run out...

I have a DAC and I'm in no hurry to activate them. I'll see how things develop.
Unfortunately online on steam is not an adequate reflection of the real number of players. But the trend can be understood from it. And the trend is depressing.
The most incomprehensible thing for me is what the developers will do if they understand the fallacy of some mechanics.
Now the release and deletion is not so easy to do as in the beta. This can cause unpredictable consequences up to lawsuits.

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1 hour ago, ColonkinYT said:

I have a DAC and I'm in no hurry to activate them. I'll see how things develop.
Unfortunately online on steam is not an adequate reflection of the real number of players. But the trend can be understood from it. And the trend is depressing.
The most incomprehensible thing for me is what the developers will do if they understand the fallacy of some mechanics.
Now the release and deletion is not so easy to do as in the beta. This can cause unpredictable consequences up to lawsuits.

 

Stop talking about legal action.
 

To kickstarter NQ only needs to deliver a game "one day". This day has long since arrived, the alpha deliverable was already ok from a legal point of view.
And since the 27th we've been talking about a proper release.
 

So stop dreaming if you think that one day NQ will have a lawsuit against someone. Let alone a trial with someone who has a chance of winning a few things.
 

Take a look at this example:
 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/soulboundstudios/chronicles-of-elyria-epic-story-mmorpg-with-aging
 

This is a scam, the man paid the entire funds as a salary for himself (8 million). Perssone cannot currently sue him because he publicly announces that he will "one day" deliver his game.
Just pretend for a few decades until prescription.
 

What do you think you can win against NQ which is a real company with employees actively working on the game (at least the day I write these words)?
 

An "lawsuits"  LMAO

 

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16 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:

 

Stop talking about legal action.
 

To kickstarter NQ only needs to deliver a game "one day". This day has long since arrived, the alpha deliverable was already ok from a legal point of view.
And since the 27th we've been talking about a proper release.

 

So stop dreaming if you think that one day NQ will have a lawsuit against someone. Let alone a trial with someone who has a chance of winning a few things.
 

Take a look at this example:
 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/soulboundstudios/chronicles-of-elyria-epic-story-mmorpg-with-aging
 

This is a scam, the man paid the entire funds as a salary for himself (8 million). Perssone cannot currently sue him because he publicly announces that he will "one day" deliver his game.
Just pretend for a few decades until prescription.

 

What do you think you can win against NQ which is a real company with employees actively working on the game (at least the day I write these words)?
 

An "lawsuits"  LMAO

 

You only hear what you want to hear.
I said and I say that there is no longer such an opportunity for erasure as on alpha and beta. At least it is much more difficult to decide and justify this step. I am against erasure as such. However, I can already see that the situation, frankly, does not inspire optimism.
Perhaps the developers have a plan. Unfortunately, we don't know much about it and so far since the beta I don't see any improvements. In my opinion, most (but not all) decisions were a complete failure from my point of view as a player.

Once the game is publicly available on Steam, forget about kickstarter as well.
In the event of distortions or errors in the gameplay, it will be much more difficult for developers to rectify the situation. This was exactly what it was about.

By the way, with today's update, it is forbidden to calibrate mining units on inactive tiles.

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I see NQ have updated the client so it doesn't allow calibrations on inactive tiles any more.  So they must at least be actually reading this stuff.

But that just makes it worse.  Instead of having one tile each it's actually more optimal to share with friends and have fewer tiles than it was before.  If I have a 1L gold tile and so does my friend we should leave 1 inactive and both use the other.  It will cost 1/2 as much tax and we can get exactly the same amount of gold from one through calibrations as we can from 2 because there is no limit to the number of calibrations which can be run per tile and the tile's quality has no influence at all on how much ore a calibration yields.

 

Does anyone else think this is just encouraging people to do calibration-only mining?

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15 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

I see NQ have updated the client so it doesn't allow calibrations on inactive tiles any more.  So they must at least be actually reading this stuff.

But that just makes it worse.  Instead of having one tile each it's actually more optimal to share with friends and have fewer tiles than it was before.  If I have a 1L gold tile and so does my friend we should leave 1 inactive and both use the other.  It will cost 1/2 as much tax and we can get exactly the same amount of gold from one through calibrations as we can from 2 because there is no limit to the number of calibrations which can be run per tile and the tile's quality has no influence at all on how much ore a calibration yields.

 

Does anyone else think this is just encouraging people to do calibration-only mining?

In general, I think that it was done correctly. At the very least, non-lootable tiles of low value can be freed. And other people will have access to the tiles.
Whether removes it globally a question in the title of a topic? Not!
But in the absence of prey on the planets in the classical way, this is better than nothing.

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3 hours ago, DannyUK said:

I didn't take into account any alts that maybe used to do this also. People don't really pay subscriptions on multiple accounts do they? I don't think I could throw money away like that unless I was super rich.

 

I still think it should be changed though to stop this happening, hopefully they come up with another method that is more better than it is now.

You can buy a DAC for 7 mil.

Using calibration only mining on a T3 tile you can make that back in a small number of days.

 

And you can do this as many times as you want!  No need to find new tiles, have infrastructure, etc.  Just keep selling, buying DAC with the proffit and making new characters.  Your single tile can generate an infinite amount of ore!  The only limit is how many calibrations you can run before your eyes start to bleed!

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6 minutes ago, ColonkinYT said:

In general, I think that it was done correctly. At the very least, non-lootable tiles of low value can be freed. And other people will have access to the tiles.
Whether removes it globally a question in the title of a topic? Not!
But in the absence of prey on the planets in the classical way, this is better than nothing.

No.  Because I can use calibration only mining to generate a lot of quanta (until the ore markets crash).  I can use that to buy DAC and have more accounts (until the DAC price gets inflated).  SO I can have a lot of alt accounts.  Each one has 3 HQ tiles.  People can just HQ them and set them to inactive in case the game rules change.

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13 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

No.  Because I can use calibration only mining to generate a lot of quanta (until the ore markets crash).  I can use that to buy DAC and have more accounts (until the DAC price gets inflated).  SO I can have a lot of alt accounts.  Each one has 3 HQ tiles.  People can just HQ them and set them to inactive in case the game rules change.

Either way, we'll have to live with that my friend.
NQ removed the calibration of inactive tiles. So everything else is within the rules.
Just use it while you can...
P.S. As it stands, the whole concept of unit mining seems like a failure to me. But this is just my opinion. And me and our organization will have to use the tools that we were given ..

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11 minutes ago, ColonkinYT said:

Either way, we'll have to live with that my friend.
NQ removed the calibration of inactive tiles. So everything else is within the rules.
Just use it while you can...
P.S. As it stands, the whole concept of unit mining seems like a failure to me. But this is just my opinion. And me and our organization will have to use the tools that we were given ..

Oh yes.  Everyone will use this.  I will use this.  I'm seeing the giant piles of ore others are getting from their calibrations and feel like I have to join in in order to compete.  I have procured a T3 tile with a small amount on it.  My one T3 autominer is cooking.  Tonight I will head over there to run 150 calibration charges and generate 300K of T3 ore in (probably) about 3-4 hours.  If you can't beat them ...

 

But generally speaking we want to be in an MMO with a balanced economy rather than one where something is so much better than the other options that everyone just does that over and over and over (*cough* aileron parts *cough*).  And when something like calibrations has no limit to it then that is eventually going to break the game by making it too easy to generate large amounts of ore.  Ore prices crash.  Nobody goes to asteroids any more so PvP players have nothing to do and stop playing and it goes downhill from there.

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20 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

Oh yes.  Everyone will use this.  I will use this.  I'm seeing the giant piles of ore others are getting from their calibrations and feel like I have to join in in order to compete.  I have procured a T3 tile with a small amount on it.  My one T3 autominer is cooking.  Tonight I will head over there to run 150 calibration charges and generate 300K of T3 ore in (probably) about 3-4 hours.  If you can't beat them ...

 

But generally speaking we want to be in an MMO with a balanced economy rather than one where something is so much better than the other options that everyone just does that over and over and over (*cough* aileron parts *cough*).  And when something like calibrations has no limit to it then that is eventually going to break the game by making it too easy to generate large amounts of ore.  Ore prices crash.  Nobody goes to asteroids any more so PvP players have nothing to do and stop playing and it goes downhill from there.

Actually, this is the main problem of introducing mining units. Ore is taken infinitely. And it doesn’t matter the calibration or the operation of the mining unit.
As for the exit to the pvp zone behind the asteroids. It is naive to assume that anyone will be able to force the players to go there. Rather fall online. After all, in fact, the reward does not correspond to the losses)))

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4 minutes ago, ColonkinYT said:

Actually, this is the main problem of introducing mining units. Ore is taken infinitely. And it doesn’t matter the calibration or the operation of the mining unit.
As for the exit to the pvp zone behind the asteroids. It is naive to assume that anyone will be able to force the players to go there. Rather fall online. After all, in fact, the reward does not correspond to the losses)))

But the way the mining units are intended to work means that there is a limit to the rate you can generate ore at.  In order to generate 300K of T3 in one go you would need a lot of different tiles which would mean lots of mining units, storage, hauling and logistics, scanning the tiles down in the first place.  And the tile tax would scale with the amount of ore you generate meaning that as the market gets oversupplied the bad tiles get less and less viable, which is what an economy should look like.

With the calibration method all I need is one tile, one tile tax, an XS core, a mining unit, a ship that can hold the ore and some alts or calibration talents.  It's completely broken.

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8 minutes ago, ColonkinYT said:

Actually, this is the main problem of introducing mining units. Ore is taken infinitely. And it doesn’t matter the calibration or the operation of the mining unit.
As for the exit to the pvp zone behind the asteroids. It is naive to assume that anyone will be able to force the players to go there. Rather fall online. After all, in fact, the reward does not correspond to the losses)))

And as to the PvP part -- I'm not talking about forcing people anywhere.  There are a lot of players who will go to them.  But if calibrations generate more ore per hour than asteroid mining why would they bother?

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21 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

But the way the mining units are intended to work means that there is a limit to the rate you can generate ore at.  In order to generate 300K of T3 in one go you would need a lot of different tiles which would mean lots of mining units, storage, hauling and logistics, scanning the tiles down in the first place.  And the tile tax would scale with the amount of ore you generate meaning that as the market gets oversupplied the bad tiles get less and less viable, which is what an economy should look like.

With the calibration method all I need is one tile, one tile tax, an XS core, a mining unit, a ship that can hold the ore and some alts or calibration talents.  It's completely broken.

I mean otherwise.
We have 2 mining options (or rather, we saw them).
1. Classic mining. We must find the ore, extract it. All. After that, you can no longer mine anything on this tile! Those. ore is finite even in perspective. We do not consider the issue of costs.
2. Mining unit. Suppose we have a tile on which, let's say, 350 liters per hour of hematite. We need to calibrate it every 3 days. For simplicity, let's count 2 times a week. We put 3 units on hematite.
During the work of units per week, we will receive (albeit on average) with good skills 50.4 kiloliters of ore. Plus, from 2 calibrations (we will assume that all are successful) another 21 kiloliters. Total round up to 70 kiloliters of ore per week. For a month 280 kiloliters. You know, finding more than a million meganode was a great success. And here, in 4 months, a million ore from the air continues to work ...
Not to mention the fact that few people liked classic mining. He took a lot of time and effort. And how much time and effort does it take to mine a unit? 2 hours a week? This is the imbalance I think is the most serious. And I do not take into account bonuses from adjacent tiles. There are completely different numbers.

 

And if you turn on recalibration for T2-T5 ores at all, there are generally wild numbers of overproduction looming ...

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37 minutes ago, ColonkinYT said:

I mean otherwise.
We have 2 mining options (or rather, we saw them).
1. Classic mining. We must find the ore, extract it. All. After that, you can no longer mine anything on this tile! Those. ore is finite even in perspective. We do not consider the issue of costs.
2. Mining unit. Suppose we have a tile on which, let's say, 350 liters per hour of hematite. We need to calibrate it every 3 days. For simplicity, let's count 2 times a week. We put 3 units on hematite.
During the work of units per week, we will receive (albeit on average) with good skills 50.4 kiloliters of ore. Plus, from 2 calibrations (we will assume that all are successful) another 21 kiloliters. Total round up to 70 kiloliters of ore per week. For a month 280 kiloliters. You know, finding more than a million meganode was a great success. And here, in 4 months, a million ore from the air continues to work ...
Not to mention the fact that few people liked classic mining. He took a lot of time and effort. And how much time and effort does it take to mine a unit? 2 hours a week? This is the imbalance I think is the most serious. And I do not take into account bonuses from adjacent tiles. There are completely different numbers.

 

And if you turn on recalibration for T2-T5 ores at all, there are generally wild numbers of overproduction looming ...

With T1 and calibration-only miningnI was making well over 100kl of T1 ore every day on my tile.  It was taking about an hour a day.  It never ran out, I could have whatever mix of ore types I wanted.  I could have sold to bot orders for millions per day.

 

Needing to pay 500,000 per week in tax is completely irrelevant because the tax only scales with the ore if you need to find additional tiles.

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Reading the posts here, it's clear that calibrations shouldn't give any ore bonus. Just keep the unit at 100% and passive hourly income only.

 

Yet again, NQ creates a game mechanic rife for abuse and economy breaking exploits.

 

Have they ever consulted an economist?

Edited by Emptiness
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I hear a lot of people who apparently want to restrict quanta to missions, and throttle mu production. I don’t think “The economy” is really your interest.

 

Before Demeter, there were loads of bajillionaires and tons of ore readily available in the ground, and the “economy” was fine. A newb could start digging holes in the ground and buy himself a decent ship in no time. The big shops were all open and thriving.

 

Everyone dumping their stockpiles AFTER Demeter is what killed the economy.

 

Subsequent crashes were caused by people quitting in droves, not “too much ore production.” In order to run a big MU farm and rake in tons of ore, you have to spend a lot of time and money up front, and a lot of upkeep timethereafter. It’s not free, and it takes a bunch of tedious maintenance, like anything else in this game.

 

tl;dr: step off my MUs and go back to whining about PVP.

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Don't worry, it doesn't look like anyone is going to fix this until T3 ore is selling for under 50h again and everyone has a massive pile of ore.  You can keep on mining as much as you like, just don't expect it to hold any value ...

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1 hour ago, Hecticus said:

I hear a lot of people who apparently want to restrict quanta to missions, and throttle mu production. I don’t think “The economy” is really your interest.

 

tl;dr: step off my MUs and go back to whining about PVP.

 

I don't think you actually read the thread before jumping in did you?  What's being complained about here is not that missions and mining make too much money.  We're talking about 'calibration only' mining.  You can make similar money to a big MU farm but all you need is one mining unit and one tile.  You put the unit down, calibrate, pick it up, put it down, calibrate again, etc.  As you say, running a proper mining unit farm is a lot of work but the 'calibration only' method is really easy and people are getting hundreds of thousands of KL per day of ore with it.  It means that all that hard work that you put into your mining farm is worth nothing because someone with a mining units and a bunch of alts can get more ore than you with less effort.

 

tl;dr: Pay attention before commenting 

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I was actually responding the the last comments, complaining about mu production being op. (Hint: it isn’t). A little reading comprehension goes a long way zed. If you have a ton of alts you can abuse it, sure. I seriously doubt there enough people with 50 alts who wants to spend all their time charge spamming to make this a problem.

Edited by Hecticus
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10 minutes ago, Hecticus said:

I was actually responding the the last comments, complaining about mu production being op. (Hint: it isn’t). A little reading comprehension goes a long way zed. If you have a ton of alts you can abuse it, sure. I seriously doubt there enough people with 50 alts who wants to spend all their time charge spamming to make this a problem.

We'll have to disagree on that one.  I think there definitely are enough people with enough charges to abuse it and they will.  And it will mess up the economy and by the time it does it will be too late to easily fix it.

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