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Refining ore should not increase total mass


Qith_Karrar

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Am I the only one who is annoyed that refining certain ores increases their total mass? 

 

For example, 65L (5.04 kg/L) of Hematite is 327.6 kg but is turned into 45L of pure iron (7.85 kg/L) which is 353.25 kg. This only gets worse with better talents letting you use less then 65L of Hematite to get the same amount of iron.

 

In addition to being unintuitive, it's a pain to have to remember which ores are supposed to be refined before transport and which are supposed to be refined after transport to be as mass efficient as possible. 

 

Either the ratio of ores to pure products should be increased or the density of Hematite and a few others should be increased so it's almost more mass efficient to refine at mining location then transport the pure products instead of the other way around.

 

 

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Having wood come from carbon and oxygen isn't unreasonable, those are the basic elements in most organic matter anyway (and hydrogen, but they want to keep the low level products 2 materials). 

 

I guess what annoys me is that the game does so much right: silumin, duralumin, inconel are all real alloys, for example. Of course I'm not expecting modeling real world properties or anything, but the idea that "you refine ores to get rid of the mass you don't want and get the pure element inside" is so basic it breaks my immersion a little bit when it's so obviously violated.

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20 hours ago, Qith_Karrar said:

Am I the only one who is annoyed that refining certain ores increases their total mass? 

 

For example, 65L (5.04 kg/L) of Hematite is 327.6 kg but is turned into 45L of pure iron (7.85 kg/L) which is 353.25 kg. This only gets worse with better talents letting you use less then 65L of Hematite to get the same amount of iron.

 

In addition to being unintuitive, it's a pain to have to remember which ores are supposed to be refined before transport and which are supposed to be refined after transport to be as mass efficient as possible. 

 

Either the ratio of ores to pure products should be increased or the density of Hematite and a few others should be increased so it's almost more mass efficient to refine at mining location then transport the pure products instead of the other way around.

 

 

There a quite a few minerals and their derivatives that defy physics in this way and its silly.  Refined product should never weigh more than the sum of all its components.  I pointed this out at the beginning of BETA and everybody seemed to think I was crazy, so, dont expect to get any support.  It annoys me because a science fiction game should be based in science.  If you cant understand basic science such as 2kg plus 1 KG does not equal 6KG  then what the hell else is wrong.

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16 hours ago, Underhook said:

I pointed this out at the beginning of BETA and everybody seemed to think I was crazy, so, dont expect to get any support.  It annoys me because a science fiction game should be based in science.  If you cant understand basic science such as 2kg plus 1 KG does not equal 6KG  then what the hell else is wrong.

 

(Quote emphasis mine)

 

It always makes me chuckle seeing people who had a few people respond with negative reactions on their posts stating global victimhood and blaming everyone around them, seems to be a popular trend this last dacade... Oh Woe Is Me!!!...    jeez.

Regarding the post, far from people saying you were crazy, there were dozens of people stating the same thing as you and even NQ themselves at one point stated that they were trying to keep final mass lower than input mass. TBH, I don't see what's so hard... Hell, at one point there was even an item called Catalyst 3 that became self generating instead of being consumed slowly, if one had enough skills.

I once compiled a tedious list of most of the aspects of the game's "fizziks" that were broken, but I'm pretty much beyond caring at this point.

My tediously scientific and engineering literacy has basically ruined the immersion for me of pretty much every sci-fi game besides Kerbal.

So no, you might be feeling a little bitter but you are not the victim and not everyone thinks you are crazy.

 

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Just remember not even the Cake is real all the time.  The point is not to bother all the time either, immersion is one side realism and the other side ignorism, two sides to the same medal. Just dont look at the back of that medal as Life 2.0 has been posponed for eternity. Having fun at something is a choice, being bothered by something is the same choice.

 

Almost Nobody is complaining about speeder compactibility, like hey is that a speeder in your pocket or are you happy to see me.

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18 hours ago, Jinxed said:

 

(Quote emphasis mine)

 

It always makes me chuckle seeing people who had a few people respond with negative reactions on their posts stating global victimhood and blaming everyone around them, seems to be a popular trend this last dacade... Oh Woe Is Me!!!...    jeez.

Regarding the post, far from people saying you were crazy, there were dozens of people stating the same thing as you and even NQ themselves at one point stated that they were trying to keep final mass lower than input mass. TBH, I don't see what's so hard... Hell, at one point there was even an item called Catalyst 3 that became self generating instead of being consumed slowly, if one had enough skills.

I once compiled a tedious list of most of the aspects of the game's "fizziks" that were broken, but I'm pretty much beyond caring at this point.

My tediously scientific and engineering literacy has basically ruined the immersion for me of pretty much every sci-fi game besides Kerbal.

So no, you might be feeling a little bitter but you are not the victim and not everyone thinks you are crazy.

 

Was just stating the facts.  My post back then drew a lot of comments.  50% of responders could not actually understand mathematics well enough to see there was an issue and thought I had it wrong.  The other 50% basically responded with who cares.  It does not make me feel like a victim.  It makes me feel that such a low attention to basic details indicates that this attitude might permeate into the entire game.  As it turned out ...... I believe it did.

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On 10/1/2022 at 5:58 PM, Qith_Karrar said:

Am I the only one who is annoyed that refining certain ores increases their total mass? 

 

For example, 65L (5.04 kg/L) of Hematite is 327.6 kg but is turned into 45L of pure iron (7.85 kg/L) which is 353.25 kg. This only gets worse with better talents letting you use less then 65L of Hematite to get the same amount of iron.

 

In addition to being unintuitive, it's a pain to have to remember which ores are supposed to be refined before transport and which are supposed to be refined after transport to be as mass efficient as possible. 

 

Either the ratio of ores to pure products should be increased or the density of Hematite and a few others should be increased so it's almost more mass efficient to refine at mining location then transport the pure products instead of the other way around.

 

 

 

Yes.
Incompetence of an NQ Game Designer.

He is very stubborn and like a child.

If you find a glaring balance problem but he didn't think of it before you, it will upset him. He will block the subject for a very long time (6 months to 2 years).

Then it come back a bit later when he thinks you've forgotten and offer balancing.
 

 

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1 hour ago, Daphne Jones said:

I try not to let it bother me.

 

I got used to it as well. However, it is frustrating to see such avoidable mistakes, Take the stoichiometric number of products, multiply it with a yield between 0 and 1 and let talents increase the yield but not above 1. That's it. If the developers fail to do that, how are they going to solve real problems?

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4 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

 

I got used to it as well. However, it is frustrating to see such avoidable mistakes, Take the stoichiometric number of products, multiply it with a yield between 0 and 1 and let talents increase the yield but not above 1. That's it. If the developers fail to do that, how are they going to solve real problems?

The problem is that they've made a game design decision that 65L of ore yields 45L refined. (with some adjustment for talents). On one extreme, RL coal and gold as they come out of the ground yield much more carbon and gold than that, iron ore may yield about that much iron, but some things - like extracting fluorine from minerals - probably yields much less.

 

So if you have unrealistic volumes for game design reasons, but realistic densities... you're going to have some weird results in some cases.

 

I don't think this is easy to fix without unnecessarily complicating the game design.

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4 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

 

I got used to it as well. However, it is frustrating to see such avoidable mistakes, Take the stoichiometric number of products, multiply it with a yield between 0 and 1 and let talents increase the yield but not above 1. That's it. If the developers fail to do that, how are they going to solve real problems?

 

EDIT: I must have missed the post above me cause it says the same thing XD


I wouldn't be too hard on the devs in this case. They did put in some effort, at least to the point of sourcing to get rough numbers - their densities for hematite and pure iron are roughly right.

 

I suspect the issue stems from the fact that they wanted to keep the base refining volumes constant at 65L ore to 45L pure (probably for simplicity or balance reasons) without realizing that you can't fix the volume and use real world densities without breaking mass balance. By the time they realized their mistake they already had coded and balanced around the bad numbers so were stuck. I'm sure they could change them, but they have a lot of other stuff on their plate right now.

 

I would much rather have them fudge densities or break volume parity then violate mass balance, but that's because I have a degree in chemistry and not in game design - so they might actually be making the right tradeoff here 🤷‍♂️
 

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How interesting here. Recycling is fine...

Doesn't it bother anyone that the fuel weighs much more than the original components and more than half of the metals in the game? By the way, I wrote about this on Alpha. They never answered me... For example. We take 20 liters of silicone, 20 liters of carbon and 40 liters of oxygen and hydrogen. Here, explain to me where the dark matter came from, that the fuel began to weigh 4 kg / liter! Space fuel and even cooler 6 kg / liter! Those. a little more and it will be easier to refuel the ship with iron.

Despite the fact that the main components of fuel for space weigh much less (Soda and Calcium for sure!) There, in general, only gases in general. By the way, this is one of the few exceptions to mass gain, especially in such a volume after crafting. Otherwise, the weight changes slightly. And you say that a little cleaning is changing))))

 

We have fuel on DARK MATTER! No one sees her, but she is! ;-)

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The size of the planets doesn't bother you? The distance between planets doesn't bother you? An SU being only 200km? Max speed only being 50k in space? How many liters go in a cubic meter? And the sudden mass generation after material processing is what REALLY bothers you... OK... 😉

 

For me any semblance of 'realism' went out the window with the items I mentioned. I understand why these things were done, so it's not a huge issue for me. But I've found peace that the laws of nature in the Dual Universe are 'alien' and should not be compared to our laws of nature. Learn to live with the internal consistency (or lack of) of DU... It really improves your sanity... 😉

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

The size of the planets doesn't bother you? The distance between planets doesn't bother you? An SU being only 200km? Max speed only being 50k in space? How many liters go in a cubic meter? And the sudden mass generation after material processing is what REALLY bothers you... OK... 😉

 

For me any semblance of 'realism' went out the window with the items I mentioned. I understand why these things were done, so it's not a huge issue for me. But I've found peace that the laws of nature in the Dual Universe are 'alien' and should not be compared to our laws of nature. Learn to live with the internal consistency (or lack of) of DU... It really improves your sanity... 😉

 

 

 

The size of the planets is still a certain convention.

Moreover, this is not Empyrion with the dimensions of the planets of ten kilometers. But the dependence of maximum speed on weight ...

This is already serious.

The maximum speed should be the same for everyone. As it was before.
A small fighter will pick it up with an acceleration of 15G, while a large truck will take 2-3G. This is the balance of real life. This ensures the interception of the target. For this, carrier ships are needed so that fighters do not carry tens of tons of fuel.
I still can't figure out WHY they did this. Has anyone else screwed up?

 

Increasingly, the thought that Game Designers skipped physics classes comes to my mind. 

 

We do not require 100% realism. It's stupid in a computer game. But I would like to see the basic patterns.

Contradiction to some laws of physics - throws all life experience into the trash))).

 

For me, Alpha and the first part of Beta are the best I remember about DU. Even despite many bugs and lags. )))

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