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Ask Aphelia Episode #9 - Schematics Edition Discussion Thread


NQ-Nyota

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11 minutes ago, Nayropux said:

The current situation of one player being able to scale up machines until they could completely saturate the market for multiple elements

 

That is called competition. Same thing happens when player tries to kill another in pvp.

Just need to be clever to win there at competitive markets.

No need to ask for help by restricting competition.

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10 minutes ago, kulkija said:

 

That is called competition. Same thing happens when player tries to kill another in pvp.

Just need to be clever to win there at competitive markets.

No need to ask for help by restricting competition.

There is no way to "compete" in this game when it comes to industry. There is no way to get any kind of differentiation. All ore is the exact same quality, everyone has access to the same talents, every element output is the exact same. People who claim the current system promotes "competition" simply do not understand how business works. Businesses don't just sell the exact same item as each other, they all sell slightly different items. The only place competition on the PvE side really exists is in ship sales (and to a lesser amount, storefronts like Gottmart and SVEA), not on the actual industry side.

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Hey folks, we're going to go ahead and close this thread to clean it up as it has derailed several times. It'll be open again soon. 

 

Edit: The thread is now open again for comments.  We ask that you please keep this thread about the Ask Aphelia episode answering your questions about schematics. Thank you. :)

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2 hours ago, NQ-Nyota said:

Hey folks, we're going to go ahead and close this thread to clean it up as it has derailed several times. It'll be open again soon. 

 

Edit: The thread is now open again for comments.  We ask that you please keep this thread about the Ask Aphelia episode answering your questions about schematics. Thank you. :)

how/when are you going to answer any of the questions and concerns that have been raised here? There is a heap of commentary and questions that haven't been responded to and the answers to those questions already asked really are needed to inform further questions.

 

Summary of questions so far:
What happens when running industry use up their stored schematics?

How many schematics will be able to be stacked into each industry unit?

With the examples shown in the video it would take approximately 700 schematic hours to produce enough warp cells to transport enough ore to build the required warp cells, similarly, assuming production time for schematics scales by tier,  it would take approximately 100h of schematic hours to produce enough fuel for a 9600L fuel tank. How is hundreds of hours of AFK activity to support an hour of active gameplay considered reasonable by your development team?

With the primary complaints for the game currently being time and resource gating access to the limited gameplay how do you see more time gating and gatekeeping as the solution?

Do you want people to just find the game unplayable?

If the schematics will cost money to copy and will be consumed on creation, and this is about making industry more accessible to players, why time gate copies instead of just letting people buy however many copies they want?

Is this really just to try and further incentivise alt accounts for the few people still playing to try and increase your revenue? because this just seems to be further damaging to the game itself.

I thought the idea of this was to "fix" the broken mechanics of the schematic system but instead you are doubling down on the worst most restrictive mechanics to further gate production, what is the point of this?
 

So the band aid holding the entire game's economy together will be a highly limited resource that can be gained in an infinitely increasing scale depending on how many accounts you're willing to pay for?

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16 minutes ago, Azraeil said:

how/when are you going to answer any of the questions and concerns that have been raised here? There is a heap of commentary and questions that haven't been responded to and the answers to those questions already asked really are needed to inform further questions.

 

Summary of questions so far:
What happens when running industry use up their stored schematics?

How many schematics will be able to be stacked into each industry unit?

With the examples shown in the video it would take approximately 700 schematic hours to produce enough warp cells to transport enough ore to build the required warp cells, similarly, assuming production time for schematics scales by tier,  it would take approximately 100h of schematic hours to produce enough fuel for a 9600L fuel tank. How is hundreds of hours of AFK activity to support an hour of active gameplay considered reasonable by your development team?

With the primary complaints for the game currently being time and resource gating access to the limited gameplay how do you see more time gating and gatekeeping as the solution?

Do you want people to just find the game unplayable?

If the schematics will cost money to copy and will be consumed on creation, and this is about making industry more accessible to players, why time gate copies instead of just letting people buy however many copies they want?

Is this really just to try and further incentivise alt accounts for the few people still playing to try and increase your revenue? because this just seems to be further damaging to the game itself.

I thought the idea of this was to "fix" the broken mechanics of the schematic system but instead you are doubling down on the worst most restrictive mechanics to further gate production, what is the point of this?
 

So the band aid holding the entire game's economy together will be a highly limited resource that can be gained in an infinitely increasing scale depending on how many accounts you're willing to pay for?

 

They aren't answering questions like that.  Right now they are just deleting anything that is too negative. 

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7 hours ago, Nayropux said:

completely saturate the market for multiple elements is not sustainable.

why is this not sustainable. here in America that's how things work. I'm guessing you don't come from a place where capitalism is appreciated. since you made that statement as a matter of fact with no supporting evidence. a lot of games try tied to force their version of an economy on the player and they suffered for it. that's why you don't see games developers bragging about it.  NQ from the beginning used a few catch phrases open sand box (lie) player-based economy (lie) and they promised us a pet (maybe a lie). they fix those 2 things, and they will have a game they can make money at ( I can wait on my Dekker pet)

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27 minutes ago, Centcom said:

why is this not sustainable. here in America that's how things work. I'm guessing you don't come from a place where capitalism is appreciated. since you made that statement as a matter of fact with no supporting evidence. a lot of games try tied to force their version of an economy on the player and they suffered for it. that's why you don't see games developers bragging about it.  NQ from the beginning used a few catch phrases open sand box (lie) player-based economy (lie) and they promised us a pet (maybe a lie). they fix those 2 things, and they will have a game they can make money at ( I can wait on my Dekker pet)

It's not sustainable because it's a video game. If the goal is to have some % of the population work on factories, that means given a fixed number of elements, a single player cannot be able to supply enough to meet demand. Otherwise if there were only 10 elements, then only 10 players could reasonably work on factory whether the population was 100 or 100k.

 

Trying to link this mechanic change to a (lack of a) love for capitalism is hilarious, by the way. A capitalist would realize this change doesn't matter. The cost of the schematic runs only gets passed on to the consumer in the end. If you love capitalism so much, maybe buy the schematics off the market. Complaining your self sufficient commune can no longer be self sufficient, and then talking about how the change is anti-capitalist, is just... yeah.

 

Honestly, I'm not surprised at the reaction this change has received. Half the people in this thread were complaining about how mining units would cause ore shortages because no more mega mining; and talking about how the L/h figures were way too low. It's pretty damn funny in retrospect. Sometimes I do not blame NQ for not interacting as much as they probably should.

 

 

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As a solo casual player ore is now severely restricted. What i can get my self is in effect limited i can get from MUs on my sanct tile and surface mining, you are not going to get far with just the junk of sanct.

 

I think that it is often forgotton in these "discussions" that the remaining players are highly dedicated and often? have multiple accounts. It IS NOT a good representation of the average player that might only login every few days for 1 or 2 hours.

 

1 good think MU's brought was calibration jobs, i do not do NPC junk at all, but running jobs for other players was a way to get acceptable credits which in turn could be used for ore.

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@NQ Has the idea and plan for DUs future moved so far away from the original Open world premise towards survival/management that players wanted an Open World game should reconsiders and leave DU for good?

Edited by Kurosawa
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yes

 

apparently the current vision is pvp and nobody thinks about how these ships and bases can even be build in acceptable timelines.

 

That people want something else to do apparently is lost, calling thies an eve minecraft crossover has now totally failed.

 

what is lacking is simple stuff, make everything added also work like showers. Glamour is endgame but broken shit is broken shit and showers that do not shower are broken shits. BTW who wants to shower their space suit? so we need to be able to get them off, also for sleeping. and one more thing, having cubboards and closets but nothing to add or the possibility to put stuff in it: broken shit.

 

And i want to be able to sit on my created couch and drink a beer or eat a home made thingy. 

 

small stuff that is viable but apparently its alot more importand to rethink a failing system, throw alot of time and cash into it as we dont want egos to be shattered by telling its bad and we scrap it complete.

 

Please start adding reall contend and stop messing with existing stuff or limiting stuff thats been around forever.

 

Automated mining would never come and we were all fine with that.......mining is deleted and we now have automining THAT SUCKS

we asked a drill unit to add to a vehicle, not a static new minigame that costs time and has no real purpose as the output is laughable (2 minutes grabbing rocks equals a day aoutomining)

 

 

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11 hours ago, Nayropux said:

Honestly, I'm not surprised at the reaction this change has received. Half the people in this thread were complaining about how mining units would cause ore shortages because no more mega mining; and talking about how the L/h figures were way too low. It's pretty damn funny in retrospect. Sometimes I do not blame NQ for not interacting as much as they probably should.

 

People can only judge based on the limited information that NQ releases, which isn't helped by them not answering simple questions about how things will work or refusing to deploy changes to the PTS so we can actually see things in action.

 

And really...are we supposed to give NQ the benefit of the doubt when it comes to design choices...? I do think they'll tweak the numbers for schematics to be more generous before pushing this out, but I don't blame people for a lack of trust.

 

If NQ actually wanted to discuss things and give us the information we lack, maybe we'd be able to judge things more fairly. And speaking of being fair...the community said that AMs would be bad, and they are bad. I've yet to see anyone claim that this timer-based minigame gameplay is at all engaging.

 

It's also impossible to say that the community was "wrong", really, because player pops are cosmically low and many of the people that do log in don't spend time to build, they're just checking their timers.

 

The "economy" that exists today isn't even close to a valid test of a live system.

 

So when these changes hit live, we actually have no idea how they will work on release -- because there's zero way to test anything related to economic balance until the wipe happens or NQ decides not to do it. Quanta simply doesn't have the same value when players know it is likely going to get erased. 

 

Until the 3-month-plus "decision" of the wipe is made all we can do is speculate, even after this mess is deployed. 

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13 hours ago, Nayropux said:

Trying to link this mechanic change to a (lack of a) love for capitalism is hilarious

I was actually referring to you not having any love for capitalism. but it seems like you have it all worked out in your head how thing are going to turn out. the main point i have been trying to make is, NQ cannot and will not succeed at forcing economics or any other type of game play down our throats. bottom line is people don't do what they don't want to do. since this is a pay to play environment there are really only 2 options:

1. suck it up and try to make it work

2. leave and go play something else.

 

We have seen the outcome of the last schematics shenanigans, a huge portion of players left, so what makes you think it will be different this time. I'd guess most people came for the open sand box do whatever you want kind of experience, not tedious work type exercises in patients. 

 

the real world the economy is really run by the populace. no economy has ever be stimulated by over regulation or over taxation. the exact opposite is what makes people spend more, then more things get produced and so on. 

 

I generally don't do a lot of posting in forums, I find it and exercise in futility, but in this case i think that if NQ implements this change it will be the "Finishing Move" for DU. I would have preferred not to have wasted so much time. 

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On 7/21/2022 at 2:28 PM, grumpledor said:

and one for each pure

they did say that "parts" don't need schematics. I'm pretty sure that Pure counts as a part, not a finished product. Warp cells though... that still scares me.

 

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On 7/21/2022 at 4:28 PM, grumpledor said:

Simple question does it take 1 schamatic for 1 warp cell and one for each pure?  

Simple... NO friggin answer

Unless they change the batch size for warp cells (which is currently 1) then it would be one schematic per warp cell. And if I remember right, you get 10 schematics per copy for warp cells.

 

Increasing the batch size would be a little problematic early on, where you would need a lot of supporting infrastructure just to keep one machine producing warp cells.

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Currently on the markets the price of the schematic was not taken into account in the selling price.

With the modification of the schematic everything should have its price which is multiplied by 2.

Of course, T2 to T5 minerals should be around the same price as T1.

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It would be nice if one could sell one's things above the ore value. A lot of things in the last few months were below their actual value. Those who pulled their ores out of the market sold at a loss so that they could get something sold at all.

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14 hours ago, Tordan said:

they did say that "parts" don't need schematics. I'm pretty sure that Pure counts as a part, not a finished product. Warp cells though... that still scares me.

 

This is very similar to when they introduced the player core limitations with ridiculously low numbers that caused a huge backlash.

 

But the thing that really scares me is that we have now reached a stage where people have become apathetic, and there are so few active players left that NQ will not get the message this time before it is to late and the game is totally unplayable at release.

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1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

It would be nice if one could sell one's things above the ore value. A lot of things in the last few months were below their actual value. Those who pulled their ores out of the market sold at a loss so that they could get something sold at all.

 

With the current industry system, we will never sell common products above the price of ore.
 

Crafting items in DU adds NO added value. Your engine once built is worth less than the ores needed to build it on the market.
 

I'd rather you give me $20,000 in cash than a car that's worth $20,000 at its Argus rating and everyone wants to sell.
 

The only thing that pays off is time. If you sell the right item in the right place at the right time and save your buyer time, you will earn quantas.
Ditto if you make objects that take several days to manufacture, the added value obtained will be thanks to this time.
 

=> Personally at the launch of the game (Beta- for a few months) I massively supplied a market with articles on a floor of 10% profit (taking into account that I had all the talents of craftsman). This was simply to prevent someone from selling these items for 2 or 3 times their crafting price and earning too much quanta through passive industry. (and i win massively money)

 

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1 hour ago, Knight-Sevy said:

The only thing that pays off is time. If you sell the right item in the right place at the right time and save your buyer time, you will earn quantas.


 

That's right, I can see it well with me, the rare Space engines XL or Warpbeacon run well and with a tidy profit. anything that can be produced quickly or easily is not worthwhile. And even then the demand is very player-dependent. you make the most with engines or weapons when NQ changes the values again in a patch and everyone wants to upgrade their ships quickly.

I don't just see the time involved in these elements, but also the high schematic costs in Quanta. Not everyone produces the warp beacon, simply because of the 2,000,000,000 quanta in investment costs. In the meantime, however, so many lines have been built that the suppliers are undercutting each other there.

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2 hours ago, Zarcata said:


 

That's right, I can see it well with me, the rare Space engines XL or Warpbeacon run well and with a tidy profit. anything that can be produced quickly or easily is not worthwhile. And even then the demand is very player-dependent. you make the most with engines or weapons when NQ changes the values again in a patch and everyone wants to upgrade their ships quickly.

I don't just see the time involved in these elements, but also the high schematic costs in Quanta. Not everyone produces the warp beacon, simply because of the 2,000,000,000 quanta in investment costs. In the meantime, however, so many lines have been built that the suppliers are undercutting each other there.


 

Yes, with the old schematic system, the supplier's offer increases over time.
Between all those who will invest because they saw that there was potential profit or those who already wanted to craft for them then sell the previous one...
There comes a time when either all players have their items or all players have the industry to craft the item.
Once you have invested in the line, you have it forever.
 

With the future system the market will be more easily balanced. All items will end up being at or slightly below crafting price.

When there is a sudden demand, those who have stock will sell it at a high price. The others will make the investments and a few days later the price will drop.

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This is, once again, NQ overthinking and over complicating things. The direction they continue to go will simply destroy the game before it even launches. (IF it even makes it to 1.0 which I feel is in serious peril)

 

They continue to make this game for a very small "niche" group of players who are hard core, have all the time in the world, and doesn't care about all these extreme timers, limits, etc. 

 

The average player who wants to experience all of these things on their own or in a small group of friends, will have big issues and setbacks with these proposed changes. So what is the point to all these systems when you push the solo and small groups out of the airlock? 

 

NQ is essentially forcing players to play a very specific play style with what they are doing, which will turn off a lot of previous, current, and future players. 

 

Schematics should only be used for completed items, such as when making engines, thrusters, weapons, shields, etc.  

 

All the components and the components to make those components should be unlimited use via a simple drop down menu, select what you want that machine to make, and make them. Having longer times to make higher tiered components and eventually the final product makes sense, as that is how it was before.

 

I swear this community understands game design far more than NQ does and it shows. 

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