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NEW SCHEMATICS - Discussion Thread


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Sadly i have to agree, pre 0.23 things were indeed going in the right direction including player driven events and fun stuff to do, mass mining and merchandise and Ore transportation.

0.23 ended all that and more. It also effectively ended designing ships and bases for alot of players and sadly i was doing that under contract, but well stuff was not crafted anymore and the contract party left DU.

Imagine where we would be now without 0.23 and visualize that to what we now see, that makes me sad.

 

Our organization was building ships for the PvP zone to mine more dangerous and to haul stuff over but after 0.23 that stopped as the costs did not benefit the risks anymore so in fact 0.23 did not only affect industry but i believe it killed a slow pvp uprizing in its starting days. 

 

And the bad thing is, the proposed new system will not bring that back as it is inherently as bad as the old system of schematics, it just has a "we will solve this"flavour over it. But nothing is solved, just another time and quanta sink is introduced

 

With this form of ideas and development we dont need grievers or negative people, this game will kill itself before we will even see release and then poof another few hundred euros down the drain.

 

 

Maybe they can still change the text on the T-shirt int:

 

 

"I invested in a game but the developers could not deliver as they never really listed and all i got was this T-shirt"

 

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We're here well into page 5 of fthe discussion, with so much being said, suggested, asked and wondered..

 

Guess what/who is entirely missing ..  Will any of it stick/land/be taken on board/reconsidered/adjusted? No one knows and all we have is past experience which tells us probably not.

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Ha! The 'Improved' schematics will either

A. Have a symbolic week on PTS and then go live (regardless of feedback).

B. Go straight to live server since the feature is 'complete'.

 

And I am hoping and praying NQ will prove me wrong this time, but as so many times before they probably will not..

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@NQ: Why is this "Per player production volume time-gate" needed?

 

We already have several limiters controlling production volume and what is produced.

 

1. Raw material acquisition. Mining is already heavily limited per player.

1.2 Rare raw material acquisition. Gated also by pvp/pirates game-play (healthy gate) Or if miner wants to avoid pvp by warp it is limited by expensive warp cells.

 

2. Supply and demand is effective limiter. If supply is too high prices go under profitability limit. Inexperienced players may not notice that and do use too low prices, but those who know how to play industrial game-play , will benefit and buy low priced elements and limit their production until demand is high enough.

2.1 Professional Industrialists produces only those items which has demand. They do not waste their materials into something winch wont sell. This simple facts is very efficient limiter and control scheme for Industrial production.

 

Demand for elements is created by builders. How ever we can not use Markets to sell real end products = Ships

We are only able to sell 100% identical mass produced elements. This is the reason why markets looks like working badly. Markets and economy don't even have change to evolve healthy this way.

Other booster for demand is economical growth. Artificial limits works against economical growth.

PVP boosts demand also.

 

We should not look to much abut industry. It is only middle-ware, which supports other game-loops.

 

More artificial restrictions you at NQ put on markets or production/supply chain, worse effects it has to in game economy. Limiters are needed but those should come from other healthy game loops, not by hard-coded band aid.

 

Market fragmentation

Current huge amount of different items (both elements and stuff needed to craft them) is fragmenting economy and markets. There is too much different variations and types of elements vs. current player base.

 

About markets and problem of low economical interaction between players:

Aphelia markets:

Having these "Aphelia markets" all over the place is also big problem, fragmenting economy and breaking competition and supply/demand principle. There is no competition between marketplaces. Why would one monopoly compete with its own markets... Aphelia's monopoly fits wery badly into healthy economy. Combined to the fact that "Aphelia is the State and government," it controls "Legislation, production ... everything; This was centralized economy model in real life , but it has already failed.

 

Player markets

Players will Build their markets where demand is. Players will create healthy competition among their markets. That will create lots of interactions, those which are now missing totally.

 

When we get player markets?

 

NQ: Skip this Schema update and give us player markets.

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The first time around, players also loathed NQ's schematic idea. When they deployed it anyway, they made a post about how it they were right to do it...because again, they're so focused on solving this one "problem" in isolation they forget that their goal is to make an engaging game

 

I'm expecting the exact same process this time.

 

They will push this out and explain that players don't understand the issue and this "solves" a critical problem, all while they've made the game less engaging. Then they wonder why feedback isn't more "balanced" and blame players for not understanding how game development works. 

 

There's a lot of engaging ways to create factory upkeep...there's factory games like Satisfactory or Factorio they could draw inspiration from.

 

Instead, someone thought it would be fun to make a factory where you need to shovel papers into machines every now and then...which again emphasizes the lack of design experience. 

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Hmmm. How to say this nicely?
Old promises may not be anymore valid but this is current sales pitch right now in DUs web page:

"The free economy" - Seriously?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

THE MOVERS AND

SHAKERS

An empire of immeasurable wealth begins with one humble quanta, the currency of the galaxy. These wheelers and dealers don’t merely operate within the rules of supply and demand, they command them. The free economy presents infinite opportunities for slick captains of industry, ambitious resource tycoons, and stalwart shipwrights. Craft and sell your own creations or act as a broker for makers who prefer to focus on their craft.

 

 

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1 hour ago, kulkija said:

Player markets

Players will Build their markets where demand is. Players will create healthy competition among their markets. That will create lots of interactions, those which are now missing totally.

 

When we get player markets?

We have them; SVEA, Gottmart (and the space station I can't remember the name of), despite NQ making efforts that goes against the entire concept. What happens with these after the new schematic mechanic is introduced is still unknown.

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26 minutes ago, Yoarii said:

We have them; SVEA, Gottmart (and the space station I can't remember the name of), despite NQ making efforts that goes against the entire concept. What happens with these after the new schematic mechanic is introduced is still unknown.

 

True.

How ever those markets are created using Dispenser by creative way. Even those dispensers were short period disabled...

 

Aphelia's monopoly has superiors Technology in use, comparing to dispensers based shops.

 

Due to clumsy RDMS it is hard to enable other players to sell their stuff on same player run shop.

When D=Duties feature is missing in RDMS shop owner can not set up any taxes or other fees like Aphelia monopoly syndicate can.

Player shops are not connected to global inventory and exchange system (Nanocarfter market interface)

So even so little chance to compete with Aphelia, players are still creating shops and marketplaces. Creating workarounds to lack of Market units.

RE:

https://dualuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Market_Unit

 

Ps. This is "Official and updated Dual universe wiki

https://www.dualuniverse.game/news/dual-universe-wiki-updated

 

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Hmm

https://dualuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence

Quote

Known AIs

Aphelia

Aphelia is the AI on board the Novark, the original Arkship in Dual Universe which landed on Alioth. She provides help and advice to new Noveans. Aphelia is considered untrustworthy by many, due to reasons such as vague responses to certain questions, overly interested in the everyday ongoings of passengers, and significant defenses against hacking.

This explains a lot. Should we revolt?

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<sarcasm>

Well, I suppose this will produce some hard numbers to throw at the noisy ones that for some reason think the game is having issues with privately owned mega-factories... because this is still apparently an issue for someone...

</sarcasm>

 

...Anyways, if they don't want to annoy everyone like they did in .23, they'll need some manner of transition period where both new and old schematics work, and it wouldn't hurt to make it so players don't need to run to an aphelia-structure to get this done (even if it costs just as much).

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14 minutes ago, Taelessael said:

Well, I suppose this will produce some hard numbers to throw at the noisy ones that for some reason think the game is having issues with privately owned mega-factories... because this is still apparently an issue for someone...

 

Which is why there is no way around a wipe at this point. Unless NQ wipes, those with wadss of cash will not see much impact from this at all as they can just copensate by throuwing money at it and just keep going.

 

You simple can't make sweeping and disruptive changes like this without a wipe and NQ will find out the hard way that this will hold true with some of the chenges they plan to push post "release" as well.

 

Not that I expect anyone with an objective perspective on this would expect to not see a wipe.

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2 hours ago, kulkija said:

How ever those markets are created using Dispenser by creative way.

Oh, I know; I'm part of Svea. :)

 

I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry reading this from the *official* wiki you linked. @NQ-Nyota can you confirm the wiki is up-to-date and market units will be a thing on launch? When will we get to test them?

https://dualuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Market_Unit

 

image.png.dbbee607609cf6be2e862ee25d9ea52d.png

 

Edit: apologies for getting of-topic ;)

Edited by Yoarii
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11 minutes ago, Yoarii said:

Can you confirm the wiki is up-to-date and market units will be a thing on launch? When will we get to test them?

I will be brief as I also do not want to detract from the main topic. That particular wiki page was last updated in September 2017 so it is indeed very out of date. With that said, the door is open if anyone would like to contribute to, or help maintain, the DU wiki.

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8 minutes ago, Msoul said:

I will be brief as I also do not want to detract from the main topic. That particular wiki page was last updated in September 2017 so it is indeed very out of date.

We, as players, don't know that do we? Only NQ knows what is coming since they don't publish a roadmap any more. Considering they are doing large changes to industry with the schematics (back on topic :) ) what's to say that they aren't removing markets as we know them?

 

I don't actually believe they will, but I would give them a standing ovation if they had the guts to do just that. Lets hope Nyota gives us an answer.

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6 hours ago, Jake Arver said:

Which is why there is no way around a wipe at this point. Unless NQ wipes, those with wadss of cash will not see much impact from this at all as they can just copensate by throuwing money at it and just keep going.

 

You simple can't make sweeping and disruptive changes like this without a wipe and NQ will find out the hard way that this will hold true with some of the chenges they plan to push post "release" as well.

 

Not that I expect anyone with an objective perspective on this would expect to not see a wipe.

Right, I forgot the sarcasm tags... I should go edit the original post so people don't miss my intent.

 

My point isn't that there are mega-factories, it is that someone is still complaining about them because they can't accept that it is possible for people to work together enough to amass the supplies to build them. There are mega-factories, there will be mega-factories, they will be operated by a small number of people on behalf of larger groups for the sake of avoiding "too many cooks in the kitchen", and the only thing a wipe will do to inhibit that is annoy people in to quitting and thus reduce the possibility that the game would continue long enough for another mega-factory to be built.

 

So, please don't start with the absurd "objective must wipe" bologna. DU is an mmo that involves amassing stuff, building, trading, pvp, and generally competing with each other in ways that have permanent results for every action anyone takes in a persistent world. Someone will always have more stuff than someone else, people can and will cooperate with each other in large groups in ways that allow them to wildly exceed what solos and small groups do, and the only time this game will ever be fair and/or equal for everyone will be when NQ pulls the plug. 

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NQ... please don't push this one out.  This feels like .23 all over again.  We got used to schematics.  Was anyone STILL complaining enough to really warrant this redo?   You keep talking about game balance, but I'm playing on my own and doing just fine.  You keep nerfing things (still ticked I had to add all those extra adjustors to my ship and junk it up).  Now your going make industry need regular maintenance.  I already spend the first 20-30 minutes a day playing checking mining units.  I HATE THAT.  This will only add to it.  Either dump the schematics altogether or leave it alone.  I don't speak up on the forums often, but I'm telling you... you push this one out, kiss your remaining player base goodbye.

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As an industrialist, I have absolutely no desire to reprogram all my machines when the schematics change.

 

I absolutely don't want to have to integrate an additional cost into the finished products because the schematics will only be consumables (whereas currently, once the purchase of the schematic is amortized, the prices go down).

 

Finally, I have almost no more competitors, I hardly change my prices on a daily basis, the economy is already almost dead with this so negative idea about the reset.

I wouldn't bet, but I'm afraid to sit on my stocks and not sell anything because this new management of patterns would make everything even more tedious.

Buy ore wherever it's cheapest, ok. Running after perishable schematics because I couldn't produce enough solo ones to cover all my productions, no.

 

So, do your patches, do your taxes, I'm afraid I'll just become an observer and change lanes to try to have fun.

 

PS: fortunately we don't yet have taxes to land in official spaceports 😛

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They got introduced to stop factories from going "wide": to prevent a thousand machines running in parallel.

 

They achieved that to a degree.

 

The system now uses up schematics and gives players a way to create them themselves... I'm confused because that's pretty much the fix the community had been suggesting.

 

In practice it should mean that players are not reliant anymore on selling their ore on the open market, before they will be able to build a ship (larger than xs). Additionally if you have a band of players that don't let their "schematic points" go to waste, in theory they could now buy their industry machines, use up all the schematics in ridiculously wide assembly line super fast, put the industry elements on the market again and be on their way. We just can't do a neverending stream anymore, not sure how it's a bad thing for the economy, that industrialist wales couldnt afk "farm".

 

 

That being said I made my peace with the old system after an initial tantrum... This sounds like another thing to manage daily, basically another chore. It's a little ironic how all the content turns out to have that certain feel to it. I don't begrudge it though, but I temper my expectations a lot.

 

 

With what seems realistically achievable, I keep dreaming that with a healthy server population, we could have sort of a second life where people meet up to socialise and play mini and boardgames in lua (total waste of electricity but maybe worth the immersion).

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Guys you have to stop to want an utopist game !!

 

Industry can't be unlimited, core can't be unlimited. in the past, JC has sell too many dreams about DU. It was a fake news to have full unlimited gameplay. It's not sustainable financially !

You can talk about slots (more or less) the time (more or less) and the quantity of each copy (more or less), but the fact there will be no changes about the system. 

If you just don't like the changes, NVM ! You play or you stop the game but the rest is only stupid blabla

 

You are always thinking about the game currently and always forgot what will happens with the wipe. All theses features we have since more than 1 year is only in this goal. Make sure to have an economy for the release, where each player can earn their life in the game:

- Asteroids > mining > sell to the market (or bot if T1)

- MU > mining > sell to the market (or bot if T1)

- Mission > travel the space to have money

- Sell your ship, lib voxel, lua,talent handling to the other players

- You can explore the world to find wreck, asteroid, or abandonned constructs

- You can piracy people on asteroid or mission (i can understand it's not easy to do)

- With core alien there wille be some fight in the future with a larger population with the release

- Craft item > sell items to the market, via dispenser, or other

 

But obviously if you earn some money, you need to have some sink about money. This is why there is some fee (tile, copy). 

The goal about the tile fee is to make sure you can't have too many tile only reserved for you and your org even if you are not mining them with MU.

If there was no tax, what would happens ?

People will take all tile they can just to make sure other players can't have them.

No fee is just a stupid request.
 

This is the same things with schematic. Make sure people will only produce schematic they can use or sell and not overproduce schematic. It's a regulation/control and it really important to have some regulation in the game.

 

I hope one day you will understand what is wrong with all yours reflections

Edited by Kanamechan
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I think there are some really good features in this;

  • Easier for new players, post reset etc
  • Wipes all the schematics obtained by exploits
  • Removes parts schematics 
  • Allows NQ to modify schema costs/times to manage economy 
  • Adds another tradeable item, game loop (even if it seems boring some will like it)

Some really horrible things that need to be minimised as much as possible

  • Tedium of visiting every machine. (please, a central schematic bank)
  • Ties solo industry players to multiple alt accounts (surely if a solo industrialist wants to train to level 20 we should enable that)
  • Probably more here, changing stuff too close to release (what could possibly go wrong) etc

Could be worse I guess, I am probably more inclined to specialise after this change, Just to cut out the awfulness of keeping track of multiple items. It would never work with parts schematics, the micromanagement would kill it. Even with out it, those with 500+ end products ... it will still be horrible. Perhaps if they opened it up to lua?

 

I guess we will find out soon enough .... 

 

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1 hour ago, Palis Airuta said:

I think there are some really good features in this;

  • Easier for new players, post reset etc
  • Wipes all the schematics obtained by exploits
  • Removes parts schematics 
  • Allows NQ to modify schema costs/times to manage economy 
  • Adds another tradeable item, game loop (even if it seems boring some will like it)

Some really horrible things that need to be minimised as much as possible

  • Tedium of visiting every machine. (please, a central schematic bank)
  • Ties solo industry players to multiple alt accounts (surely if a solo industrialist wants to train to level 20 we should enable that)
  • Probably more here, changing stuff too close to release (what could possibly go wrong) etc

Could be worse I guess, I am probably more inclined to specialise after this change, Just to cut out the awfulness of keeping track of multiple items. It would never work with parts schematics, the micromanagement would kill it. Even with out it, those with 500+ end products ... it will still be horrible. Perhaps if they opened it up to lua?

 

I guess we will find out soon enough .... 

 

 

  • Wipes all the schematics obtained by exploits

Well - the quanta is refunded, so its not really wiped. Not sure what the alternative was though.

 

  • Removes parts schematics 

Yes, but its not just schematics on end-products that remain. You need them on pures too *rolls eyes*. So everyone with even small factories will have to manage/produce these too.

 

And extra (extra) tedium is clicking a button to collect each schematic copy from the queue once complete.

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2 hours ago, Distinct Mint said:

Well - the quanta is refunded, so its not really wiped. Not sure what the alternative was though.

 

That is true, but at a minimum they will wipe quanta on release. And we are left with a schematic system in place that works well on release but without the quanta obtained by exploits or missions. For me that kind of ties it together and gets a tick. Agree the tedium they got to minimise, if we have to have it then make it as easy as possible, its a task we do not do now, so give us the ability to automate with Lua. Or at a minimum 'Maintain 50' quanta comes out of your account if you have it... They still have the ability to restrict industry sprawl via time/talent  gate at the same time not making the loop tedious

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Many people like myself enjoy the NON "drama" that only solo play brings. I stopped playing DEC 2020, and returned yesterday just to see what changes have been done. And I can honestly say that what all was changed,  obviously wasn't for the better. My entire org and it was huge, are all gone. 4k max daily players, so income wise that is 40k a month. Yeah good luck paying salaries with that. In 2020 we needed some touch ups like the meta cube ship, a hard reduction in lag, things like that. But someone at DU seems to have made problems (schematics) and then to fix the problem, made more problems (more schematics). And by doing so removed all the fun that is a MMO. Not like we have a ton of quests we can do.  PvP is essentially dead. So if the goal is to make DU a non solo player game, you might as well just shut the doors, or start work on a new game, and write this off as a loss, or maybe sell to a company that can actually fix your mess.. I get this undeniable feeling I won't be resubbing for another month after this. Your just complicating and compounding problems on something that doesn't work( if your digging a hole and you hit rock bottom (4k subs) STOP DIGGING). I had a huge factory, and it was not to make millions, I did that by selling ore excess, I did it because to me the mayhem(prior to schematics) was fun. And now you want to pretty much destroy that fun in favor of what exactly? I can see needing schematics for built ships people put many hours into building, or lua code, for anything else is just HS. Last part of my rant involves the billions you allowed to be had before the beta to "grease the economy". You had bots for that. You used to give new players a ship and a bump in Q doing tutorials (when they worked), and now you have removed underground mining (so dumb) as a means to reduce lag. Why you can't do like no man's sky and just refill the holes and tunnels in short duration is beyond any player here. Mining was one of the more tedious, but fun parts of DU and you removed it in a knee jerk fashion. Outside of going back to before DEC 2020 and just fixing the exploits and issues you had then (which you won't do) is the only real way to bring back players. Wipe the servers of all quanta, all schematics, rewind the game 2 years (when you had a ton of players) and make people claw a bit to get started like any other game. That small nudge when I first played DU was all that was needed. Only thing I would leave in are the skill points, as people actually paid for those with subs as you already knocked off a 1/3 of the time from 90 to 60 a min. Do I think anyone at DU will read this? Nope LOL

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Quote

The new schematics will come to Dual Universe very soon. In the meantime, we will be listening to feedback on costs for copying and balancing them accordingly. We will also be watching for your suggestions for items that may need their own schematics, issues with the way items are currently grouped into schematics, or potentially items that currently have schematics but shouldn't.

 

The only questions I see NQ wants answers to is cost/balance for copying and what items should have schematics.

 

Cost/balance

The same schematic will be used for all elements of the same tier and size but the production cost for different elements can vary a lot. Here are some examples of Tier 1 Medium elements using the same schematic:

 

Element Prod. Cost 1000 5000
Basic atmo engine M 27 733 4% 18%
Basic space engine M 31 344 3% 16%
Wing M 31 344 3% 16%
Adjustor M 4 983 20% 100%
Atmospheric airbrake M 5 706 18% 88%
Atmospheric fuel tank M 27 733 4% 18%
Basic container M 143 072 1% 3%
Basic metalwork M 31 344 3% 16%
Cockpit controller 30 165 3% 17%

 

With a schematic cost of 1000 or 5000 quanta there are a huge difference between the cheap adjustor compared to the expensive container. The schematic cost affects the total production cost of the different elements very different. 

For now I can't compare between tiers because ore prices are not in balance for numerous reasons.

 

I can't wrap my head around why it feels so wrong with these differences. I hope you all can help with further discussions about that!

 

Schematics for what items

The reason for the schematics in the first place is to achieve a means to level the production of items, and not having factories running constantly without a demand. Why would some items not need this level? Without this extra cost I can produce as many items I can, with the ore I get, to flood the market. The very reason this change is made. All items must have schematics.

 

Parts have never been an item worth selling, though JC had the vision that most players would be small suppliers of parts to the bigger factories producing finished elements. So I can understand why those don't get schematics (for now).

But furniture, plants, cables, pipes, antennas and other decorative elements do have a place on the market and a demand from players not interested in industry and therefor should have schematics.

 

A historical note is that SVEA would not have been what it is today without the profits from decorative elements. The first factory, store and the whole organisation building a big base and a lot of ships was financed by only the production and selling of decorative elements.

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