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NEW SCHEMATICS - Discussion Thread


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@tobitege

NQ does not want you to play the way you are playing.. they are now force feeding a system where you do NOT produce end-product elements from raw ore.

 

 

The problem here is that their communication on this is so bad that only if you take a step back and connect the dots does what they appear to plan for become obvious.

 

 

NQ want DU to have a more EVE style industry gameplay. The idea here is not to be able to do it all, but to create an interaction between industry and markets and with it drive the economy.

 

This is basically still the JC mantra where solo players are not expected/should not be enabled to DIY entire elements from scratch but use markets OR specialize towards specific components and sell those to market. Problem is that the way the game is set up right now, industry is not EVE style at all, it is Factorio/Satisfactory style.

 

 

The big gamble they seem to be taking is for the wipe to reset all of this and from there see players much more fall in line with the desired style of play.

 

I do not think that will work as the game is not designed the way they want it to play out at all. The big issue here is that the bigger orgs will have no problem doing it all themselves anyway and so exclude themselves entirely from the markets/economy. Unless NQ is able to break that status quo, their idea will fail.

 

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3 minutes ago, Hecticus said:

luckily I’ve been cranking 10 warp cell towers 24/7 for months…

 

Unluckily, chances are good that they'll finally make the call on the wipe soon after this change deploys...

 

They mentioned months ago about changing schematics as a part of the wipe, and here we finally are.

 

It would make sense, as they probably want to actually test to make sure the new FTUE and new industry work as expected before they push this mess to release. 

 

So, erm...better get to warping while you can. 

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I want to publicly congratulate NovaQuark on keeping up with the traditions, not only of going silent, but also of ignoring player feedback and specially on the tradition of screwing things up with schematics. You're doing a great job there, shoving up this update where EVERYONE TOLD YOU it was a bad idea and yet you did it, maybe because of the greed of getting some people to buy extra alts so they can keep their mega factories around, because that's how NQ does things: as far as you pay, you can completely go around limitations.

 

You could've done WAY BETTER by getting the long awaited power system up, that way no matter whether you had one or a hundred accounts, you would still be limited to how much power you could generate or extract from the tile and there you go, problem of mega factories completely solved. Now instead what we'll see is whale players still owning 100s of accounts just to keep their factories and some artificial numbers that I'm sure you will use to promote this dead empty game around.

 

Very good job. Great way to kill whatever remained of this game right before release.

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One thing that really irks me here is the inconsistency this new system has with previous systems and with the rest of Industry.

 

Everything is based on tiers being named as Basic, Uncommon, Advanced, Rare and Exotic

Schematics are suddenly Tier 1-5

 

The UI is really terrible > a simple GET SCHEMATIC option in the industry UI would already improve this a lot

 

Now you have to open the industry UI, check which tier and for what type you need, exit the UI, enter the schematic UI and "order" the UI.

 

Better would be open industry > click "GET schematic" and go straight there

 

The schematic UI itself should have a built-in filter by using a tree structure for the list

 

But that would mean you actually have devs who design UI and understand how to get a good UX ..

 

 

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Also, this change will hurt construct sellers in a massive way as it will even further reduce the availability of many materials on markets and make making them extremely non-viable.

 

Some ships are designed with small amounts of special honeycomb, before flying around to buy schematics was tedious but doable. Now it becomes a very long process where it takes DAYS to just get schematics.

 

And any of these materials are just not interesting for commercial manufacturing so they are not available on the market at all.

 

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1 hour ago, Jake Arver said:

 

 

 

NQ want DU to have a more EVE style industry gameplay. The idea here is not to be able to do it all, but to create an interaction between industry and markets and with it drive the economy.

 

 

 

 

The problem with NQ is they dont understand the things that go along with EvE.  For one, there are MANY pve and things for players to do.  So a new player can jump, get some money running missions, buy what they need, and get going.  The other thing is that the amount of destruction EvE has.  It means the markets always moving.  Even PVE players lose their ships to NPCs or other players.  Oh well, its gonna be fun watching release and the immediate drop in player base right after just like "beta" release.

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18 minutes ago, Facial_Fracture said:

The problem with NQ is they dont understand the things that go along with EvE.  

 

Oh, I agree entirely that NQ is just copying the "top level" of the mechanic and ignores all the underlying ones that feed into it and actually make it functional.

 

And this one is no different ..

A good example of early feedback on this I found is HERE  and the same applies for this change too.. I did actually post on that several times, with some detailed feedback and suggestions.. which is obviously ignored as NQ may ask for feedback, but does not really care for it as they just ignore it anyway.

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So they implemented them without any changes or any PTR cycle. *sigh*

 

Sorry, but the new mechanic is just terrible. Where in human civilization do you have to copy a plan/schematic every time you want to build something in your factory? It's so stupid, and clearly just time/char-gating. 

 

What's the point in a fuel line set to Maintain, when now I have to run round with schematics all the time? Multiplied by x number of goods that you need to make on a regular basis...

 

Or you are in the middle of a build, and need another few thousand voxels...sorry, might as well just logoff because you're gonna have to wait to queue up the schematics, and then wait for them to download, because your hi-tech assembly unit has forgotten how to make it. I guess computers suck in the future.

 

Come on NQ, can you guys not see how bad this whole system is from a gameplay perspective?

 

Ridiculous.

 

 

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Listen, NQ, I get that this release was probably locked in stone before you posted any information regarding it, but maybe you could acknowledge our feedback at the time the release is made, so that we understand that we are being heard and are not wasting our time to create our posts?

 

I know that some people are out there to just complain, but there are a lot of people that really take the time to consider things from multiple perspectives and they have some great ideas. Just slapping something out after receiving a couple of weeks of feedback, and then not saying a word about all of these suggestions really doesn't feel that great.

 

I'm not asking for promises, but you can say that "we hear you, yes this process is more tedious than it needs to be and we are considering your feedback". Or "we didn't have time to implement a wallet selection, but that feature is coming". That would go far.

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No idea how this new schematic system is supposed to be "FUN" - please NQ - there are so many ideas from players - revise this system as soon as possible, something like this can't really be wanted like this or do you just have a completely different attitude what fun in a game means?

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34 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

No idea how this new schematic system is supposed to be "FUN" - please NQ - there are so many ideas from players - revise this system as soon as possible, something like this can't really be wanted like this or do you just have a completely different attitude what fun in a game means?


Why you want fun in industry gameplay? I have 0 fun gameplay in Satisfactory with the schematic themself, but I'm happy to search alternatives ones in wrecks, what we will can do with this new system.

It will be fun if they develop the consumable part of those schematics and if they just modify too low numbers.

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Well, I was largely positive about this update.  I even was starting to make a schematic store to help people out.  However, now that I see how this works, I no longer want to run industry at all.  I play this game because it was something fun to do after I clocked out from work.  Now it's literally all work.  Even if the schematics were free and they would instantly spawn when I needed them, the time it would take to keep maintaining these schematics to keep my current industry running is a literal job.  I have 40 Maraging Steel Smelters ALONE.

 

I loved this game.  I love it so much I paid for over 20 separate accounts.  I then played it SO HARD that I raised the money to beta-key those accounts because I was not going to be able to afford paying that many subs again.  I then continued to play this game so hard-in-the-paint that I built and made and started so many things.  A new org.  A large scale engine factory.  A store that sold engines.  A mining unit script that calculated profits for you.  Multiple fuel stations to keep my mission hauler running.

 

This schematic update literally forced me to shut down my engine store and my factory is slowly coming to a stop now.  Honeycomb Central is shutting down.  SVEA is closed.  I haven't even checked Gott Mart.

 

You said you wanted organizations to work together to make these things but....  there's no org support.  People have to pay for it out of their own pockets.  With multiple hands in and out of these schems and people paying out of pocket, not only is it a logistical nightmare, but if someone decides to steal schematics, there's not going to be a way for people to even start investigating.

 

I want to play this game for fun, but now it's a literal job just to make fuel, let alone anything else I need.

 

Had you all posted this in the PTS to let us look at it first, you could have gained insight as to how the playerbase was going to like or dislike it, but you all didn't.  It makes me really feel like you just have some bigsuit corporate people making decisions without any knowledge of how this game works, or you all simply have some sick sadistic plan to make a game that people love, just so you can change core game mechanics to upset then and make them quit.

 

NQ, you've done a lot of things I've largely considered to be boneheaded, but I still played the game because I loved it.  This one, though...  You've completely messed with the backbone of the game and honestly....  I don't know if I'm gonna keep playing.

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9 minutes ago, Cobqlt said:

Why you want fun in industry gameplay?

 

Eh, because it's a video game? Mechanics are supposed to be fun...or at least engaging. Personally I find Satisfactory/Factorio to be immensely fun as games.

 

3 minutes ago, fridaywitch said:

It makes me really feel like you just have some bigsuit corporate people making decisions without any knowledge of how this game works

 

Their current CEO was a producer at Ubisoft for over 15 years...I guess Ubisoft counts as "bigsuit corporate" as they have like 20,000 employees. 

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I guess I was wrong ...

 

After setting up 10 alts using summer DAC, teleporting them to my base and giving them 10 million each, they are now all copying schematics to the effect that in 4 days I can build _anything_ ..

 

No need to travel, no load on the servers, no need to interact with anyone and no hassle.. just wait 4 days and we're golden..

 

 

I guess we're all wrong and this masterful rework by NQ is working as intended /s

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Considering that I've been ripping into NQ without providing any ideas on how to fix what has me so upset to the point where Deckard literally called me out on Discord, instead of taking it personally I would love to provide any ideas on how to fix this...  However, here's the issue.  I had plenty of ideas, but Deckard said the following on the Discord.

 

"Right, but we need something to apply a soft cap to the mechanical requirements of DU. Timers are indeed perhaps not fun, but we can't just have 100000 industry units running unrestricted for players, this isn't a private server owned by a friend that can just take a beating. Every single operation has a tax on the systems and comes at a cost. So just giving everyone infinity is unfortunately not a scalable solution."

 

After seeing this...  I don't have a solution that works with this kind of restriction.  I'd love to help, but I don't have any ideas now that I have this knowledge and I don't get paid enough to grind my brain on it.  I'd love to help but we're too restricted at this point.  I hope I'm wrong here but it's starting to feel like this game can't support itself as it is right now.

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3 hours ago, Wolfram said:

You could've done WAY BETTER by getting the long awaited power system up, that way no matter whether you had one or a hundred accounts, you would still be limited to how much power you could generate or extract from the tile and there you go, problem of mega factories completely solved.

 

Originally the Schematics have been introduced to free up some Server resources I guess. So I was not sure if a limitation of energy could help to limit excessive industry builds to work against it. I just hope this is still considered instead of those one-run schematics. It also would make a lot of sense for the market-system because some do this, some do other products, none does them all.

I still believe that could have solved a lot of issues, if well thought out. It will never be possible to make anyone happy that's for sure.

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2 minutes ago, fridaywitch said:

Right, but we need something to apply a soft cap to the mechanical requirements of DU. Timers are indeed perhaps not fun, but we can't just have 100000 industry units running unrestricted for players, this isn't a private server owned by a friend that can just take a beating. Every single operation has a tax on the systems and comes at a cost. So just giving everyone infinity is unfortunately not a scalable solution


I like how they say "infinity is not a scalable solution" as if that's so obvious when they were the ones that designed it like that to begin with...and left it that way for years

 

Why design it in such an obviously flawed way to begin with?

 

Making a scalable design is supposed to come at the start of the project, not at the very end right before release! That's really, really fundamental for a company that's making an MMO.

 

We know plenty well that server operations have a cost...so why didn't NQ when they first designed the game...? They're supposed to be the professionals, but this sort of comment comes off like they had no choice, they know this isn't fun, but they're doing it anyway because "stuff is expensive". 

 

They're making mechanics more important than engaging gameplay, which is not how game design is supposed to work. That's just throwing the cart miles ahead of the horse. 

 

It's puzzling that they admit that this "might not be fun" and push it forward anyway because they don't know what else to do. 

 

There have been plenty of suggestions on how to gate production without this silliness, but these all require actual work and would have worked a lot better if they were implemented from the start (as people suggested back before 0.23).

 

You know, how professionals make games: design for scale before you're 6+ years down the line months before release. 

 

TLDR: NQ made this bed, now they are whining about sleeping in it. 

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56 minutes ago, fridaywitch said:

"Right, but we need something to apply a soft cap to the mechanical requirements of DU. Timers are indeed perhaps not fun, but we can't just have 100000 industry units running unrestricted for players, this isn't a private server owned by a friend that can just take a beating. Every single operation has a tax on the systems and comes at a cost. So just giving everyone infinity is unfortunately not a scalable solution."

 

So effectively, two years of beta has provided us with .. cost reduction and capping what players can do.

 

Normally you'd run the numbers before you start designing something that can accommodate those numbers.  NQ is working in full reverse in this regard.

And this message pretty much tells us NQ is not done yet.. This implementation clearly is still way too liberal for their goals and so they will put on the limiters even tighter in the weeks ahead .

 

 

That NQ is comparing their operation to a "private server owned by a friend" just is the icing on the cake and for me really drives home the desperation they feel around keeping their game servers running and the cost this incurs for them.

 

No NQ, this is not "a private server owned by a friend". This is a commercial enterprise where you charge more than your average private server would cost per account per month to provide less and less freedom and move away further and further from what you set out to build back in 2014.

 

You were supposed to be building a single shard world where hundreds of thousands (if not "millions") of players can interact, build, fight and have fun "without limitation". It seems you are not able to deliver that from what we're seeing here.

 

And no, that is not toxic, unconstructive or unfair. It is a realistic observation based on which I form the opinion I am entitled to have and share as feedback. Feel free to show me I'm wrong as so far, I see nothing that even comes close to doing so.

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1 hour ago, fridaywitch said:

Right, but we need something to apply a soft cap to the mechanical requirements of DU. Timers are indeed perhaps not fun, but we can't just have 100000 industry units running unrestricted

 

I have to point out how this is classic, frustratingly common example of a false dichotomy. 

 

They are making it sound like the only alternative is building without limits...like we're the ones that don't understand how scaling works when NQ has had so many troubles with it... ;)

 

That's really unfair, when so many ideas for gating have been discussed...a creative designer could certainly find many worlds of possibility between unlimited production and shoveling paper into burners. That's their job. 

 

This is a very common thing that people do, presenting it like you are unreasonable because the only two choices are this change or the old way. 

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2 hours ago, blundertwink said:

Eh, because it's a video game? Mechanics are supposed to be fun...or at least engaging. Personally I find Satisfactory/Factorio to be immensely fun as games.


If you read my message you will see that they can use the new consumable model of those schematic for create a lot of gameplay with them, by looting them in any activity/event/PVErandomthing.

Imo you have fun with some other mecanic but not selecting the schematic. Or you just feel satisfyied and it's not fun.

People just need to stop spit on an entire feature just because they are trigered, this feature can create some content/interaction SO JUST TRY TO IMPROVE IT. I'm a PVP player and we got plenty of gameplay deleted (repair/boarding/camping and co) I didn't saw ppl crying as actually for saved those gameplay, but when it's just for saved their goods even if it's a good change, they are here for cry.

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