NEW SCHEMATICS - Discussion Thread

[Pleione]

NQ-Entropy:

"When we released schematics in 0.23, it was to address a problem that had the potential to adversely affect Dual Universe as an MMO. Players were able to be fully self-sufficient with ‘build-it-all’ factories, reducing interaction between players in the game’s economy."

 

I would like to point out three items that were both in the original, and the December 2019 Roadmap (the last one published I believe):

 

 

 

and

 

 

The first implies I should be able to craft everything I need for my bases and ships.  e.g.  If I wanted to invest the time, I should be able to build a factory that can create everything I need for my bases and ships - or perhaps, like I did pre-0.23, create multiple large core space stations that combined did what I needed.  I spent 1000s of hours doing that, often 12-14 hours a day.

 

The second:  note the "or even" - use of elements was primarily intended for me and my friends, with the market an option - not a requirement.

 

The third:  Oh, wait, that is now "post release" with NQ systems substituted.

 

If the problem was lack of interaction, then perhaps the focus should have been on eliminating the NQ markets and bots and evolve towards player run ones.  Not, as other have posted, "Go re-establish civilization - we have set up dozens of fully stocked marketplaces for you throughout the solar system and established a taxation system to ensure your loyalty dependance on us."

 

The current system does not meet any of the 3 stated game goals, nor match the lore that was advertised.  Go offline, re-design to meet the goals, and relaunch in a year or two.  Your current path is a death spiral.  Maybe spend some time monitoring other games, like Fractured Veil, and see how real customer interaction works. 

 

It wouldn't hurt to force all designers to read  Tynan Sylvester's "Designing Games" book and commit to the principles it contains.

 

 

[Zeddrick]

6 hours ago, CousinSal said:

 

What would have been best would have been to put schematics in DURING THE FVCKING ALPHA PHASE OF THE GAME. This is what you get when make people play during an alpha and make them pay. It doesn't matter if schematics were right or wrong, people made emotional decisions and that is to leave.  If you put schematics in during alpha when 5% of population was playing knowing full well a wipe comes, then when game is released your playerbase is none the wiser and would have grinder for them and built up factories over years and some would do collabs to get their faster.

 

Maybe one day developers will learn this. Doubtful tho NQ has always been strapped for cash and they needed to release asap. Same with Starbase. Now both communities are paying the price. 

 

This *is* the alpha phase of the game.  It doesn't matter what NQ choose to call it.  What they're doing and the sort of changes being made are alpha-level changes.  Stability is alpha-quality, etc.

 

If it quacks like a duck it's a duck.

[Novean-32184]

I'd go as far as saying they are really still prototyping (pre-alpha)

 

They clearly have no set firm on several crucial game mechanics. Once that is done I'd call it alpha, then when all those mechanics are fleshed out and it's time to glue it all together is where beta starts. From my perspective of course.

 

NQ is rushing because they have no choice I figure. money must be very tight by now and there is no more room to move but to push the game out the door and hope it's enough. I'm not certain it will be by any means but let's see..

[chipde]

Our whole corp left the game with the introduction of schematics. At that time we had a large production plant with contract manufacturing for other players up to complete shipbuilding. There was a lot of player interaction. When we read that Schematics might be completely removed, we were happy and started to reactivate old contacts. Unfortunately, we now have to state with this news that NQ simply doesn't want players to play the way they want, but would rather have a rigid theme park concept. It's a shame for a game that could have been something big.

[Odzord]

NQ do you really think schematics is the problem? In my opinion the problem is that you do not have any long term plans and goals, you just radically change things and you wait how does that work, this way you kill this game. Please focus all your coding power to implement new things to this game -> when game starts to lure more players in, markets will heal. Its just economy around living active universe. More interesting planets -> more to explore, more unique items (items you cannot craft!) -> dangerous places (if you really do not want pve, danger can be achieved via weather, unstable wormholes, etc) -> this kind of things creates interest. Now we have several allmost similar planets, pvp is crap, players are quitting, economy is not working (because time to time you change everything related to it and people sell everything they own crazy cheap). On top of all this, you have mentioned wipe, many players parked their ambitions and goals for their digital "Star Life" and they are now waiting for possible wipe... Sad.

 

I think you still have the most interesting platform to make it. To be the best space sim where people will spend countless hours enjoying things all we space breathing individuals dream in our dreams. Dont change existing, go forward and we follow...

[Wargearer]

If they want change ok ,my opinion  i dont like the new way in schematics ,if they want change ways let as to have schematics what we have now as a master schematics  many people just spend a weeks to get some schematics as you remember in game have schematics with price of over 250millions end more end price what we pay is innormal in real live spending  end grinding so respect our time to NQ!!!!!!!!!

[Gund4m]

I see that the BPCs system will make maintaining a large factory hard because every time the copies run out you'd have to go Put more in or not let it runout in the first place

= my suggestion would to make the copying process automatable.

@NQ-Nyota

Edited July 12, 2022 by Gund4m
logical mistake

[JayleBreak]

Looking at the problem statement: "Too many people building everything without involving others", why does NQ (and a lot of players) equate that with a problem with industry that needs fixing (one way or another).

Focus on making it easier for people to buy instead of making things harder to build. My suggestions are:

• Make all markets on a planet have the same buy and sell orders (e.g. place Market 6 terminals in every marketplace on Alioth and get rid of the local terminals). 
• Distribute markets around planets so every territory is close to a market. I like how Haven was set up (may have added a few more markets though).
• Change the nano-crafter so any item it can make can alternatively be instantly bought from the planetary market (if being sold by a player) and placed in your inventory (same as if it had been crafted).

Remember, its consumer spending that drives economies not manufacturing. 

[blundertwink]

3 hours ago, Pleione said:

It wouldn't hurt to force all designers to read  Tynan Sylvester's "Designing Games" book and commit to the principles it contains.

 

 

That would imply that NQ has game designers -- I'm honestly not sure they do. 

 

Here, they looked at this as a problem with game balance in an isolated way without remembering they are designing a game. They focused so much on trying to fix their problem, they forgot that they're making a game.

 

It doesn't matter if the solution meets their definition of balance or scale if that "solution" makes the game less fun and engaging. No one is seeing the fun in more micromanagement. 

 

This seems like such a basic design error that I can't believe they have an experienced design lead. The game will never see more feature depth...just endless refactors of failed systems. 

[Yoarii]

1 hour ago, JayleBreak said:

Looking at the problem statement: "Too many people building everything without involving others", why does NQ (and a lot of players) equate that with a problem with industry that needs fixing (one way or another).

Focus on making it easier for people to buy instead of making things harder to build. My suggestions are:

• Make all markets on a planet have the same buy and sell orders (e.g. place Market 6 terminals in every marketplace on Alioth and get rid of the local terminals). 
• Distribute markets around planets so every territory is close to a market. I like how Haven was set up (may have added a few more markets though).
• Change the nano-crafter so any item it can make can alternatively be instantly bought from the planetary market (if being sold by a player) and placed in your inventory (same as if it had been crafted).

Remember, its consumer spending that drives economies not manufacturing. 

No. Making items magically transport across the planet removes part of the hauling gameplay as well as the buy-transport-sell game some enjoy. Lets not remove the few things that are fun in the game.

[Novean-32184]

While I was doing some crafting to build a ship I bought a blueprint for, something struck me which seems to be completely missed by NQ. Industry has a lot of fun elements to it.

 

The different Industry elements are actually fairly well designed models. They have animation and sound which is sometimes subtle, sometime less se. Setting up a manufacturing chain brings your base to life with movement and sound, walking through the place, you hear the buzz of an industry hall with running equipment, it is immersive and yes, fun.

 

Solving the puzzle of placing industry efficiently, designing the layout and hell, even the routing and linking is fun and you can easily find yourself tweaking and “remodelling” frequently for no reason but it being interesting to do and spend time on. The many tools players have designed to aid in this are also a sing that the game has something going here.

 

As it is, outside of flying, this is really the only thing in the game which offers this experience. it is the only aspect of the game which in that context actually make you feel you are IN the world and not in some UI which removes any sort of feeling or emotion.

 

It makes me wonder, what happened to the designer who built the Industry elements? Since these were made, later designs are all really bland and actually fairly simple. They lack the attractive nature of the Industry elements and are not "inviting" to engage with.

NQ has, once again in the recent announcements around the schematics changes, shown they did not an do not recognize the industry part of this game as something that has the ability to actually draw people into the game, that can make people WANT to subscribe and play. NQ seems to just blindly follow their "you must interact with each other and collaborate", where it is quite clear players just likes "doing" industry. 

 

There really should not be a "must" in a MMO and NQ has shown that they do not handle players choosing their own path verry well if that path is not what NQ wats or expects, they do not embrace the things players like and choose to do differently in trying to find ways to improve and expand on these things, instead NQ tends to cut off the things players like but they do not and force feed "the NQ way". The results of this are clear, they were clear following 0.23 and they are now.

 

Schematics are not a bad thing, in fact they can add a lot to the industry gameplay as wel as create new opportunities. I posted a basic idea around how I see that HERE and believe that such an implementation will actually aid the game. I just added some more to that post as I had some additional ideas.

 

@NQ-Entropy @NQ-Kyrios 

 

[JayleBreak]

4 hours ago, Yoarii said:

No. Making items magically transport across the planet removes part of the hauling gameplay as well as the buy-transport-sell game some enjoy. Lets not remove the few things that are fun in the game.

I have never heard of intra-planetary hauling being a real thing. And no way would I search for someone to haul something I could make in my nano-pack on the spot. I don't have that much energy or patience.
I think a lot of people will buy something they can get right away instead of making it themselves and waiting.

[Gottchar]

Hey there, I took my time, so sadly this will now get a bit longer, but I try to structure this.

Actual gameplay with the new system and a few questions about it:

 

Assuming this is meant for orgs with multiple actual people in it (not alts accounts).
IndyDude is the guy with all the talents for the machines, unless other orgmembers also have those talents (and rights) he is the guy checking any machines at intervalls to see which schematics are low and needed. He then has to communicate what is missing via discord or other outside of the game tools, as neither jobs/missions, nor the D in RDMS, not in game social tools works properly for this. Org members then make the schematics, what is still missing is bought. Hopefully the org wallet can be used for the fees. IndyDude takes thses schematics for his next check walk and refills what is needed. With current mechanics he would have to stop any running machines (even running but idle due to missing schematic) to place these.

Just as a reminder for people who do little industry, this means walking up to every machine, activate it; click schematics (to check); click production again; stop machine; click schematics again; insert new schematics, click production again; click start, exit UI (escape);
If you wonder why I used semi colons most times in that sentence, at those points the user has to wait for the server response, this can take some time. Anyway, all of this, you do for every single machine that needs a schematic in the future. Every few days.

Dear @NQ-Nyota , did I get that right? I am sorry, but this is hard to put into an aphelia question.

Is this really helpful, more fun and engaging? Also, anybody wondering how it will hit me, I have alts. So while I still have the annoying job of IndyDude above, the organising is a lot easier for me. Almost like the guy creating it was thinking "but at least it should give an advantage to people with alt-accounts.

Yet another per account time gate mechanic

 

You want to limit what a single character can do, yet when you limit things, you limit them as per account time gated. I will use this so often now, I shorten it to PATG. Talents are PATG, which is kinda alright, we got used to it. And while eve does it, mane other games don’t. The "default system" is to get talents by actually doing something. Here it is passive. Just need an account, it gets talents, passively, PATG. In other games you play a different character to experience another aspect of the game, like a different class. In DU, you just have an alt to get more passive gain, since there is little active gameplay needed.

Mining was made PATG, I used to not mine my own ore, but now that it is PATG, I do it (I still buy, but I get my own, too). It is a once per week annoying tedium while I watch a movie to calibrate, but compared to how much time I needed to actively actually do something in the past, it is easy money. Almost like PATG and less active gameplay leads to more people doing everything a little on the side.

Now you make industry another PATG.

 

What is next, missions? Wait, they are already PATG. Were right from the start. Fun thing is the player missions are PATG, too. I would have to use alt accounts to make better use of the player mission system. It is still defunct for most purposes though.

Which leaves, piloting, pvp, lua. Will we need limited charges for them soon, too?

Big factories need server resources! No, shush.

 

People, even when given an easier way to have a bigger factory, Hell if I sold tokens of my factory for 1 quanta, do not lead to more server stress for a simple reason, people do not produce more than needed. Even with all talents, why would my machines making, for example, container L run, if the ore is worth more than the container? The amount of things produced is the amount of things wanted/bought by players. 
Limit factories to a size that only goes through up to 1000kl of ore per day? Any factory currently needing 5 times that will be reduced in size, and new factories will be built by other players to meet demand. Unless you try to tell me that if there are less big factories, people will magically say "well, I could make profit with thing X, because prices increased, but then I would offset the amount of server cost saved by having closed the big factories!".
Limit of machines per account, per core? All just cause more tedium without "solving" anything. Why do people dislike large factories? Mine is out in the empty desert where it doesn’t hurt you.

You would save more server costs by stopping to park your ships at market 6 and the exchange to "showcase" them.

 

Increase of player interaction

Is checking the market interface to buy and sell items anonymously really player interaction? 

People will specialize!

 

Even if, what about it? Current system: John, Jim, Bob all do industry, all make adjustors, wings and engines, bring them to the market and people sell them anonymously.
New system, John makes Adjustors, Jim makes wings, Bob makes engines. They bring their goods to the market, sell them anonymously. Buyers don’t even notice. If something becomes more profitable, like engines. John lets schematics run out and invests in engines. Swapping "specialisation" gets easier with the new schematics, and specialisation is pointless anyway, I mean all buying and selling is done via a dry UI anyway.

Some good points though

 

To be fair, the new system is nicer for new players. It will also enable again the core group of people who left with .23, small pre-existing groups who set up a base someplace. Because even in an MMO, a group of 10 people should be able to have a mostly automous base, without needing to "interact" with the anonymous market all the time.

So what do I suggest?

 

If you already have to implement this feature, can you at least reduce the tedium and implement it with some QoL and maybe even fun right from the start?

-central schematic element per building, a "schematic registry" which was already asked for when .23 was announced. A single place to check which schematics are missing, what numbers are available etc. And from which machines can draw a schematic if needed. That means orgs can just ask members to check it from time to time when their queue is empty, produce what is needed and refill the schematics that are low.
No talents required. Just RDMS for that element to "view contents" and "put item into container".
No daily "check each machine manually, stop and start them to refill"

-Now that schematics are not a "lasts forever" item, you could make them occasionally be found. For:

*finished missions (aphelia or public player made)

*asteroid mining

*even a tiny chance when calibrating

*in nq spawned space wrecks

etc

 

-redo broken/inconsistent crafting material needs, tiers etc, I made a post about it.

 

-Instead of heavily timegating schematic creation, combine them with activites. Speed up the queue, give "copy credits" for certain types of schematic etc, for things you track anyway, via the achievement system. space engines for high altitude flight (thin air), higher/bigger atmo engines for atmo flights (Daisy cutter), AGG for having a big ship (shipyard master), cosmetics for using a lot of cosmetics (green house).

Or of course, any other form of active gameplay you can think of.


And about the player interaction:
Despite Entropy, the man who plays so much he doesn’t know what elements are in the game thinking that player markets are only a niche thing (a niche thing with all the top spots in the VR most visited list), player markets would actually mean that players go to other players.
Crazy concept, I know, in a game where every player makes his own base anyway, there would be a reason for players to visit such other bases, and not just fly to the same old NPC building and interact with a bloody terminal and stare at the same green UI.

[Aaron Cain]

COPYING

 

Players will have access to a new interface in which they’ll be able to copy batches of schematic copies from Aphelia’s Master Copies. Players will have access to several copying slots that can run simultaneously and will each be able to create a batch of schematic copies. So nothing changes and we still need master copies from a NPC

 

Copying schematic batches will cost time and a small amount of quanta. For example, a batch for smaller tier-one elements or tier-one honeycomb may only cost a couple of thousand quanta to copy, while the most expensive and larger schematics may cost a couple of million. Different types of batches will also give a different number of schematic copies per batch. For example, copying a schematic batch for a large high-tier element may only give you two or three individual copies, but copying a tier-one honeycomb schematic may give you a batch of 25 or more. So you did not remove a money sink but added another one, and added a time sink to it while you were going?

 

CONSUMING

 

Schematic copies will be consumed by the industry unit when an item is made. You will input schematic copies into the schematic banks in the same way as before. Apart from some interface changes to accommodate the new system, the industry unit’s function remains the same. So beside the money sink, the copies will deteriorate, and in the end everyone will still use the master copies as they do not?

 

However, there are a few important points to note:

 

• Not everything will require a schematic

 

Parts will no longer require schematics at all. This could be subject to change, but we’re experimenting with it in the first release. Subject to change, with other words, this will be implemented later?

 

Additionally, decorative elements, including doors, will not need schematics, though some exceptions may apply. Some exceptions, just do or don’t, why exceptions?

 

• You won’t need a schematic for every individual item

 

We have many items in Dual Universe. There are types of elements, with different tiers and variations, and all of our honeycomb, scrap, and materials. We felt it was too frustrating and demanding to need a schematic for each item. So we will get a single schematic for all honeycombs, and something similar for other groups of stuff?

 

We want more flexibility and ease for our players. We’re creating schematic copies for each category of items based on factors such as their tier and size, rather than each item in particular. Is this for the master schematics too and can they be used in industry?

 

For example, you could have a schematic copy that makes large tier-three elements and use it to create all types of corresponding items such as large tier-three weapons, engines, industry units, etc. Similarly, for example, you would only need one schematic for all tier-one pure honeycombs and another for all tier-one product honeycombs. Sounds nice but how is deteriorating with respect to produced items? Specially with honeycombs where I normally produce shiploads at once, is deteriorating per run or per item?

 

Finally, you’ll be able to list your schematic copies for sale on the market, enabling you to manage your stocks by buying and selling schematic copies. Will it be shown how many uses are left?

 

CONCLUSION

 

To summarize, our goals for the new system are:

 

• For personal and smaller industries, players can make schematic copies for a relatively minor cost and run a small number of industry units. This brings back small, ‘backyard’ industries of convenience. Note that you can still have a lot of machines, but the number of schematic copies you can copy by yourself will limit the number of machines that can run simultaneously. This goal will not be reached, with the current schematics I am already working on a large industrial complex that just runs fine, the new deteriorating stuff just is tedious and irritating as I now also need to keep that in watch. Also the system will in the end cost more quanta as a schematic now is a one time cost, and with the copy system it’s a recurring cost. New system and old system are both not working, still not going for research or deleting this stuff?

 

• For larger scales, it will require player cooperation, making larger industrialists purchase schematics from the markets or rely on friends and organizations to generate schematic copies for their factories. No it wont, if time is the issue people will just and only buy masters and use those, there is not a word that those cannot be used in industry, new nerf incoming?

 

• Schematic copies are more flexible and easier to handle. You don’t need a schematic for every item. You can use the same schematic to make one of many different items. This limits the total number of schematics, making managing them simpler. Nope, people will still need the same production units as they are needed to make the parts and therefore the same number of schematics are needed for every piece of industry that actually needs a new schematic. As long as LUA cannot change the produced product in an industrial unit with a simple click whole industrial setups will remain needed.

 

• Copying time, batch sizes, number of copying slots, and quanta cost can be more easily adjusted and modified based on feedback and metrics. Uhm, we now have non of this, so why did life get better with this new minigame added?

 

 

Conclusion:

Industry will become even more tedious and time and quanta consuming then it already is. NQ has developed a new system and forgot to listen to all the remarks already given. An addition like research that would open a whole area of playing field is neglected again.

Time and quanta sink added and this will not bring cooperation as things can still be done individually with not so much added effort.

Will the goals of NQ be reached with this: No

Will this idea help players having more clean playtime: No

Will it stimulate cooperation more then the current system or the pre 0.23 system: No

Is another mini game added like mining calibration that just costs time: Yes

Will this enhance bot and exploit use: Yes

Will this enhance goldsellers: Yes

Will this help global economy: indecisive

Overall added value to Dual Universe: None

[Yoarii]

12 hours ago, JayleBreak said:

And no way would I search for someone to haul something I could make in my nano-pack on the spot.

Of course not, nor should you. I'm opposing magic transports - storage which can be reached from anywhere on the planet. Such things have no place in a game like this.

[EvilestOverlord]

Welcome to the Socialism Simlator.  Next step the Great Reset!!!!

 

 

[JayleBreak]

3 hours ago, Yoarii said:

Of course not, nor should you. I'm opposing magic transports - storage which can be reached from anywhere on the planet. Such things have no place in a game like this.

So, ultra-fast express delivery is magic, but instant assembly of a big space ship from materials in a container a 10th its size located a km away is... not?

[kulkija]

5 minutes ago, JayleBreak said:

So, ultra-fast express delivery is magic, but instant assembly of a big space ship from materials in a container a 10th its size located a km away is... not?

You right

Current Blueprint spawn is actually wery rough placeholder.

It will eventually be replaced with better system.

 

[Novean-32184]

I absolutely agree that "blueprint magic" is silly and we should have gotten proper construction mechanics.. like we were told we would ..  But so is AGG and there is a few more.

But then again, we were told a lot of things by NQ in the past 8 years .. Not in the least that NQ planned to release a finished game by December 2018 during the kickstarter in 2016 ..

[kulkija]

2 hours ago, Jake Arver said:

I absolutely agree that "blueprint magic" is silly and we should have gotten proper construction mechanics.. like we were told we would ..  But so is AGG and there is a few more.

But then again, we were told a lot of things by NQ in the past 8 years .. Not in the least that NQ planned to release a finished game by December 2018 during the kickstarter in 2016 ..

 

So many things are unfinished.

 

How ever we must remember that this should be SCIFI game. So our time "Normal" can be totally something else.

There is not so much SCIFIsh things yet.

 

We all should read this book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quantum_Thief

Or at least this Wiki -page.

 

[Zeddrick]

21 hours ago, JayleBreak said:

I have never heard of intra-planetary hauling being a real thing. And no way would I search for someone to haul something I could make in my nano-pack on the spot. I don't have that much energy or patience.
I think a lot of people will buy something they can get right away instead of making it themselves and waiting.

Not since 0.23 broke the markets.  But before then there were enough players that all 10 districts were busy enough to support a market, and not all 10 were well supplied in all things.  So it was possible to play the 'build big and sell at district 6/7' game or sell less frequently at the others for higher profits.

 

I have no idea if people transported goods between them but it certainly would have been doable and proffitable.  Even some of the other Alioth markets were viable on their own and markets off Alioth were starting to develop too.

 

Now the player count is too low for that but as the game scales up having more marketplaces provides more opportunity for more people to get involved with selling and that's a good thing.

[CptLoRes]

Before 0.23 it was not unheard of to have a industrialist order raw materials from someone else and have them delivered to his factory, since the profit margins where good enough for that and the industrialist was busy doing what he wanted (building industry) instead of waiting and funneling all his earnings into the next schematic (as opposed to other players and the market).

[GraXXoR]

Just read about the new schematics.  Unbelievable. Yet more Aphelia centric nonsense.  
 

basiclsly a new sneaky, convoluted form of tax. 
 

I just can’t get over how poor the design decisions are.  
 

why not do what other games do and have a research and technology tree?

 

maybe even a physical lab or something tHa T you have to build and expand that sits somewhere in your org. Stellaris and Cyberpunk demonstrate two different methods of tech progression trees. 

 

each org should be made to research the new tech with higher level or more specialized and esoteric items getting progressively more difficult. 
 

that will force orgs to specialize in different trees by making total research time equivalent to a decade or thereabouts. 
 

clearly this is just off the cuff
 

but it already sounds more interesting and strategic yet less cumbersome and Aphelia centric than the ridiculously convoluted and completely lore-and-physics-free method proposed. 
 

I just don’t understand why EVERYTHING needs to rely on Aphelia. 
 

what the heck  happened to player agency?

[Novean-32184]

You mean something like THIS @Jinxed ?

 

[CousinSal]

Everything constantly moving to aphelia and things NQ controlled (asteroids and alien cores) just proves the game is going as far away from player driven as can be.  And it all just leads to BORING. Imagine back in 2020 when beta released, no schematics, a decent starting player base. Now Imagine only Sanctuary safe zone and elements died at a good rate in pvp and pve. Game would of been alive and super player driven.  DU is not redeemable in my eyes and whatever bastardized version that limps to release you can bet I won't be paying for it, I will also tell any friend that asks about it to stay away too.

Edited July 14, 2022 by CousinSal