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Player Subscriptions During Pending Wipe


Rokkur

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I feel the time from the date wipe discussions were announced till the wipe happens, subscriptions should be refunded, or credited as DAC.

Knowing that a wipe is on the table, NQ has a responsibility to deliver and execute this in a timely manner whilst they are being actively paid.
It is moralistically inappropriate for them to expect players to play and pay for time/progress that will be wiped in the near future.

There is no good option for a player at the moment other than to unsubscribe, and some have subscribed for a longer term that cannot simply be paused or put on hold.
It is down right wrong that players be charged during such a time that the in game player base is so massively disrupted and inactive due to coming events.

What will NQ do for subscribed players that are paying pending the wipe to compensate them for such difficulties?

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Paying the subscription has one purpose, and that is gain access to the server. It's really that simple, you have no claim or right to anything but access to the server.

So no, NQ does not owe you anything once they wipe. 

 

The reason why I keep saying that it would simply not make any sense to thinks NQ will not wipe at/around release as they would have said so by now and put this to bed. Having said that, it would be for each individual player to decide whether to keep their subscription active until NQ makes the announcmeent. That really is the only leverage you currently have. 

 

Personally I really think NQ is wrong in thinking that holding off on the announcment of what I honestly believe will be the inevitable wipe, will just work against them once it happens.

 

I mean, think about it, if NQ would annouce they will wipe prior to release (and as I expect offer a 1-2 week headstart before the actual release date for backers and beta key holders choosing to take a subscription), that woudl then actually allow them a trial run of the release patchbeforfe that.. 

 

So they could effectively wipe - test the release patch in a "live PTS" situation to find any last minute issues - wipe again - headstart - release

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Sure from a strictly legal viewpoint there is a lot of things NQ can get away with.

But that's not how you build a foundation of trust towards your player base, and more a lesson in "how to make sure your MMO will fail" kind of deal.

 

And the problem here is the subscription in combination with how they market the game on the front page.

 

 

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You are effectively arguing for financial compensation for loss of opportunity, brought about by your decision not to participate in a paid service despite continuing to pay for it, out of concern said company's next press release might upset you. Honestly, this sounds ridiculous. If you don't like the service or your not enjoying DU then unsubscribe. If you can't handle uncertainty then I recommend you don't signup to play games still in development.

 

Regarding your other posts, its clear that you are pushing for an immediate answer to the wipe topic and I presume that was also part of your motivation for making this thread. I get the frustration and I sympathize with you, but the last thing we need is a kneejerk reaction. Give the devs time to decide and plan an appropriate course of action then you can review it and provide constructive/meaningful feedback. At this point even if you were successful in forcing a status update it would just lead to more questions and more player unrest. We are better off waiting until NQ has enough confidence in their plan to be willing to share it with the playerbase. Simply put a pressured response is unreliable, be more patient.

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It seems NQ thinks that by holding back the announcmeent they can retain subscribers. My guess is that the few they have will have a higher likelyhood of remaining or returning post wipe if NQ does what they should have done by now and make the announcement. I simply do not see a reality in which NQ needs 7+ moonths to decide on a yes/no with regards to a wipe prior to release.

 

And yes, they may have a few hundred subs right now, maybe even a few thousand, which relatively is just "a few" as they will need 6 digit subscriber counts to make the game viable.

 

NQ may not have any legal obligation with regards to this, but certainly a moral and a "good business" one.

 

I think that suggesting NQ is libel in any way of they wipe is nonsesne, saying they are not showing commitment and loyalty to their existing playerbase, certainly with their current attitude on this, is a fair argument to make.

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

It seems NQ thinks that by holding back the announcmeent they can retain subscribers. My guess is that the few they have will have a higher likelyhood of remaining or returning post wipe if NQ does what they should have done by now and make the announcement. I simply do not see a reality in which NQ needs 7+ moonths to decide on a yes/no with regards to a wipe prior to release.

 

And yes, they may have a few hundred subs right now, maybe even a few thousand, which relatively is just "a few" as they will need 6 digit subscriber counts to make the game viable.

 

NQ may not have any legal obligation with regards to this, but certainly a moral and a "good business" one.

 

I think that suggesting NQ is libel in any way of they wipe is nonsesne, saying they are not showing commitment and loyalty to their existing playerbase, certainly with their current attitude on this, is a fair argument to make.


This ^. It isn't about legality, it is about them not being open on their plans due to fear of losing subscribers. That is the issue.
NQ needs to poop or get off the pot, and if they can't give a solid and viable answer by now, I then worry what their plans are if they are so keen to continue to hide them.

When you have months to decide, on top of the years you have had to gather data points, then why did they choose to announce vaguely with no plan to be able to clearly
answer the questions they had to know were coming? The only motivation I can see is retain subscribers, but it feels like they are hurting the community with their "strategy?"

Like I say, for all the criticism I offer it is cause I want to see this game succeed, and I feel their cloak and dagger avoidance of the wipe topic after months of opportunity
can only be bad for NQ and the community both, so much it becomes negligence abuse of the communities trust and only serves to further widen the gap between even
the most loyal players and NQ.

There is just nothing logical about witholding info like this from us. I hate seeing the game this empty, and so many people now gone.

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17 hours ago, Rokkur said:

It isn't about legality, it is about them not being open on their plans due to fear of losing subscribers. That is the issue.

 

If this is truly the conclusion you have reached then so be it, but I would offer you a word of caution. Be wary of speculation and those who promote it. Its a tool often used by people looking to manipulate public opinion by appealing to cognitive biases rather than facts. If your not sure what that means then I strongly encourage you to look it up, there are countless examples. Also take a look at some of the common logical fallacies as that will help you identify flaws in reasoning and manipulative behavior.

 

Truthfully, there are many possible reason's for NQ's current stance, or lack there of, but they are not supported by factual evidence and therefore only serve to detract from your argument. Your actual criticism here is that the lack of information is unnerving and harmful to the community. Make that your focus, provide concrete examples and suggestions for improvement. Put in the effort, a hundred weak statements and offhand comments will never match one well written argument.  Also keep in mind that any support you gain from being disrespectful or cheeky is short lived as those same people will have very little respect for you as well.

 

You clearly have passion for DU and care for the community so I hope you stick around and manage to keep out of trouble. Just stop throwing tomatoes at the devs. Its not helpful to your cause and will only lead to NQ being more reserved and less forthcoming with information. The community needs to maintain a healthy relationship with the dev team and if you want to act as a negotiator then put down the fruit and instead make yourself open to discussion.

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26 minutes ago, Msoul said:

If this is truly the conclusion you have reached then so be it, but I would offer you a word of caution. Be wary of speculation and those who promote it. Its a tool often used by people looking to manipulate public opinion by appealing to cognitive biases rather than facts.

 

You are way overthinking this, you fit the NQ culture very well I'd say .. ;)

 

Your reaction also seems to imply you choose to just go with whatever NQ tells you and take it for the truth, discarding anything to the contrary, no matter how logical it can be deducted. And you're perfectly entitled to do so, even when I find that to be very naive.  But then continue and basically smear those who do objectively look at what is happening and apply what they know and have studied to it to come to what is far more an educated guess than a (wild) speculation seems well out of line. 

 

Obviously, I can't say you are including my opinion in your accusation here, but I would certainly not agree that I formed my opinion based on pure speculation. I have seen what is happening here way to often in the past decades and have been actively involved in such processes enough to be able to make a worst an educated guess, which as I see it is not speculation at all.

 

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Blaze, I know you are a smart fellow and very capable of reading between the lines so please give some thought to the entirety of what I have said here. This is not really about whether today's weather forecast is right or wrong. Its about the attitude by which it is given and the impression that is left behind. Words can affect perception and words can influence others. They can inspire and they can destroy. Take care to choose yours well as one day they will form the world around you.

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4 hours ago, Msoul said:

 

(1) If this is truly the conclusion you have reached then so be it, but I would offer you a word of caution. Be wary of speculation and those who promote it. Its a tool often used by people looking to manipulate public opinion by appealing to cognitive biases rather than facts.

(2) If your not sure what that means then I strongly encourage you to look it up, there are countless examples. Also take a look at some of the common logical fallacies as that will help you identify flaws in reasoning and manipulative behavior.

 

(3) Truthfully, there are many possible reason's for NQ's current stance, or lack there of, but they are not supported by factual evidence and therefore only serve to detract from your argument.

(4) Your actual criticism here is that the lack of information is unnerving and harmful to the community.

(5) Make that your focus, provide concrete examples and suggestions for improvement.

(6) Put in the effort... 

(7) Also keep in mind that any support you gain from being disrespectful or cheeky is short lived as those same people will have very little respect for you as well.

 

(8)  will only lead to NQ being more reserved and less forthcoming with information.

(9)The community needs to maintain a healthy relationship with the dev team.


Just going to fire this back at you based one how I interpret what you have said to me in this thread, and see if we are on the same page.

1. I have a reached my own conclusion, and you feel I am using it to manipulate the community.
2. You think I am too dumb to grasp point 1, cause you used some psychology terms. No one with your level of intellectual superiority would reach my conclusion on NQ.
3. Due to lack of information provided by NQ or some how discovered myself, keep my perception on the situation to myself, cause only those in the know should have a voice.

4. Would you rather be eaten by a bear or wolf? Don't both result in the death of the community? My expressing my feelings is no less harmful than NQ witholding info on wipe after announcing it. They should have never announced it until they had the details figured out, or been transparent immediately after announcement, simple.

5. Many of us have done this already, and it gets ignored. Additionally I have started attaching proposed ways to remedy the situations in my posts, which also gets ignored.
    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again knowing it won't work. 

6. I think still being here pointing out problems is effort, otherwise I would just abandon the game like so many others have been told to do
    if they don't like NQ's lack of community transparency, and won't be a relentless cheerleader.

7. Resistance is futile, and any negative criticism of all mighty NQ is blasphemous fodder.
    (You do realize pointing out what is broken and what isn't working doesn't automatically = disrespect right?)

8. What is less than nothing? nothing. That is why pressure should be applied. Cause they have had MONTHS to be forthcoming with information on wipe, and they haven't.
    Plus as said before they set this ball in motion when they made the wipe discussion announcement whilst being unprepared to give us the details we need.

9. The relationship with NQ/Dev Team, etc. hasn't been healthy for a while now, and that is why they are catching negative feedback.
    Cause people are tired of trying to make suggestions, be ignored, and have things we never asked for shoved on us.


 

1 hour ago, Msoul said:

 This is not really about whether today's weather forecast is right or wrong. Its about the attitude by which it is given and the impression that is left behind. Words can affect perception and words can influence others. They can inspire and they can destroy. Take care to choose yours well as one day they will form the world around you.


The environment created by NQ's information vacuum is like trying to grow plants exposed to the vacuum space with current technology. They are in control of the environment, and thus killing the community by refusing to provide the tools (oxygen), and information (nutrients), and support (water) the community needs to thrive.

But thanks for blaming for blaming our dying community on a single person making negative comments... I am 100% sure my forum posts are why no one is enjoying the absolutely thrilling pre-wipe in game content at the moment. If I could only stop posting then thousands of players would return and none of the issues from the last 20 updates or bad game mechanics would even exist... geez. 

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Msoul, did you ever think that if maybe they just gave us info on the wipe, and fixed a few huge pain points rather than throwing things at us we never asked for, that maybe we would stop posting negative (ahem... disrespectful) feedback?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never logged into the forums to complain, until projects I loved were destroyed, cause I was too busy loving the game until that point.

Edited by Rokkur
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P.S. with the whole disrespect thing, I point out problems, but I am not name calling anyone. I am though 100% saying that I feel that NQ as a company is withholding information from the community cause they have a misguided belief it benefits them to do so.

So I do have a huge fear, that if it doesn't then actually suit them what type of impact to the community would happen if they spoke openly today about the date and details of wipe?

I believe that is an EXTREMELY fair and curious question after months of nothing, one all of us should be asking.

In my personal experience I have never EVER seen anything good come out of people hiding things or keeping secrets.

Edited by Rokkur
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2 hours ago, Rokkur said:

1. I have a reached my own conclusion, and you feel I am using it to manipulate the community.
2. You think I am too dumb to grasp point 1, cause you used some psychology terms. No one with your level of intellectual superiority would reach my conclusion on NQ.
3. Due to lack of information provided by NQ or some how discovered myself, keep my perception on the situation to myself, cause only those in the know should have a voice.

 

Sorry if I gave you that impression Rokkur. That is absolutely not what I said nor what I wanted to convey. My advice to you was on how you could improve your stance and associated arguments without needing to resort to "negativity". In addition to that, your still relatively new to DU and I don't want your impressions of NQ to originate solely from other players and their interpretation of past events. If this is how you feel based on your own observations and conclusions than that is perfectly fine with me.

 

As for your points 4-9, this is really just you attempting to justify a negative outlook. Again, there is another way to get your point across and I do wish you would give it some more thought, but the choice is yours.

 

2 hours ago, Rokkur said:

Msoul, did you ever think that if maybe they just gave us info on the wipe, and fixed a few huge pain points rather than throwing things at us we never asked for, that maybe we would stop posting negative (ahem... disrespectful) feedback?

Yes if the world was perfect then we would all be singing kumbaya down by the lake, but that is sadly not the case. There are issues and when those are resolved there will be new ones to replace them. There will always be something players want/hate, that's normal, but we can't have the default reaction set to public outcry and developer insults. No one is going to want to take part in a community centered around such negativity and the devs will quickly learn to tune it out. 

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13 hours ago, Msoul said:

Its about the attitude by which it is given and the impression that is left behind. Words can affect perception and words can influence others. They can inspire and they can destroy. Take care to choose yours well as one day they will form the world around you.

 

Like a good few others, I believe that I have applied senisble logic to come to the conclusion NQ will wipe the game prior to what they wil call release. There is a few questions you can ask yourself which really only lead to that outcome. And I do not try and convince anyone to agree with me, I only share my thoughts and how I arrived there. And I do not see anyone who believes the wipe wil lhappen meet what you describe. 

 

If you want to provide arguments that for you would lead to a different outcome then feel free to do so, that is what discussion is about. Trying to paint those with a different opinion in a bad light, as your fluffy wording appears to do, is really bad form and uncalled for. No one here is trying to "inspire or destroy". We are just talking about our opinions and how we got there.

 

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3 hours ago, Msoul said:

 

Sorry if I gave you that impression Rokkur. That is absolutely not what I said nor what I wanted to convey. My advice to you was on how you could improve your stance and associated arguments without needing to resort to "negativity". In addition to that, your still relatively new to DU and I don't want your impressions of NQ to originate solely from other players and their interpretation of past events. If this is how you feel based on your own observations and conclusions than that is perfectly fine with me.

 

As for your points 4-9, this is really just you attempting to justify a negative outlook. Again, there is another way to get your point across and I do wish you would give it some more thought, but the choice is yours.

 

Yes if the world was perfect then we would all be singing kumbaya down by the lake, but that is sadly not the case. There are issues and when those are resolved there will be new ones to replace them. There will always be something players want/hate, that's normal, but we can't have the default reaction set to public outcry and developer insults. No one is going to want to take part in a community centered around such negativity and the devs will quickly learn to tune it out. 


I appreciate the clarification, and I also think it is worth clarification that I am not new, I have been around since Kickstarter, my forum account is new. My projects were ruined several times from the updates, thus all the negativity. I used to peacefully create in DU, quietly, happily, working and sharing what I made. It was really my favorite way to spend every evening. 

That said I feel this year has really stripped that away from creative/builder players like myself. The negativity in my opinion is extremely well earned. 

NQ was warned about consequences and outcomes so so many times, and they chose to march head long into development choices that has really killed any incentive and motivation for players to continue community or personal projects at this time. So when you tell me the devs will quickly tune out negativity, they already tuned out positive feedback and suggestions since around update .23.

There are SO many games and I have mentioned them by name in this forum before where I sank hundreds of hours, and despite bugs and lack of polish found them to be amazingly enjoyable experiences. That said none of them were what DU used to be, and what DU used to be was something I was willing to sink thousands of hours into happily.

When I commit to an online game/mmo, I do so in a dedicated sense for 5,10,15 years. That was my dream for this, and I believe that was the dream of many players during the first few months of "BETA" launch. No one here is asking for perfection, we are asking that this game be able to host at least some basic functionality that has been done time and time again in nearly every MMO since the early 2000's.

When we BEG!!!! for basic quality of life features that have been around for 15-20 years, then what else are we going to do besides feel negative? Cause asking, begging, and pleading with them just all gets ignored. As also said before more positive things would be expressed if positive things were happening. Instead what we need is ignored, and we continue to have things we absolutely don't want force fed down our throat if we choose to stick around.

To me it is so very very clearly apparent, and I am not at all alone in my views on the issues I have listed. 
I voice my opinion the way I do, cause it is the only way I know how to communicate it, NOT cause I am some EVIL VILLAIN OF DU here purely to ruin the day for everyone.

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I honestly am going to give Dual Universe till live launch to try to stop this madness. If development continues like it has for the past half year though, I am going to have to tap out, and honestly this game won't last too long anyway if post launch goes anything like development has during 2022.

Edited by Rokkur
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It's funny that several of us had a similar discussion prior to beta. We expected NQ to up their game once they effectively launched into EA and start taking people's money on subscriptions.

 

Let's just say, the patterns we saw during (pre)alpha just continued post beta launch and currently, the exact same patterns are seen with regards to what will happen post "release", So no, I do not  think anything will change which I do think will be a problem. NQ has one single chance left to make this game work and they will need to seriously step up and start acting like a studio with a released game. I just do not see that happening simply because I do not think NQ has the funding to do that. They will continue to lean on the few here to help others and will just continue in their established ways until the curtain falls.

 

I'll happily eat my words, just like I said I'd be willing to do going into beta, if they prove me wrong.

 

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3 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

It's funny that several of us had a similar discussion prior to beta. We expected NQ to up their game once they effectively launched into EA and start taking people's money on subscriptions.

 

Let's just say, the patterns we saw during (pre)alpha just continued post beta launch and currently, the exact same patterns are seen with regards to what will happen post "release", So no, I do not  think anything will change which I do think will be a problem. NQ has one single chance left to make this game work and they will need to seriously step up and start acting like a studio with a released game. I just do not see that happening simply because I do not think NQ has the funding to do that. They will continue to lean on the few here to help others and will just continue in their established ways until the curtain falls.

 

I'll happily eat my words, just like I said I'd be willing to do going into beta, if they prove me wrong.

 


This 100% exactly, right on point. I remember myself, and that is why I made the statement above. Msoul can white knight for them, and NQ can ignore and villify people like me all they like. That said, they do so at their own peril. Just cause someone says things you don't want to hear doesn't make that person a troll, disrespectful, or even want you to fail. That seems to be really lost with people in general these days.

If NQ's critics really wanted Dual Universe to fail, then all we would have to do is walk away silently, and let them continue doing what they do. Way more effect than putting in our alleged *no effort posts* multiple times a days consistently.

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While I understand that you feel that way, I'd say that regardless of what NQ will do, that would not make sense as paying a subscription is a choice and even if NQ wipes, that would not remove the objective of the subscription, which is to have access to the server. NQ can at their leisure and at any time decide to wipe or close down the server. during the time leading up to such moment, they have no obligation to stop subscriptions as they effectively provide the servioce you pay for.

 

 

So if you feel/believe they should not charge a sub until the wipe, then do not pay for one..

 

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I don't pay for one, so it doesn't impact me directly. While I respect what you are saying about paying for access to servers. NQ has effectively taken away any incentive for players to really access those servers. Unless I misunderstand how subscriptions work, once you pay for x amount of months then they continue to roll until the paid time has expired. 

I think those players should have a choice to pause their subscription until NQ is more forth coming. This way players can do exactly what you are suggesting, and utilize remaining subscription when conditions aren't such that the game is essentially dead right now.

Edited by Rokkur
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It's easy to say that you simply shouldn't pay if you don't want to, but some people committed to longer-term subscriptions.

 

If I decided to start a 6 month sub right before they announced that they might wipe, I'd feel a bit ripped off at this point...especially since a big part of the pitch to join early access was persistence. Yeah, in that case I think a refund isn't so utterly absurd. 

 

19 hours ago, Msoul said:

Truthfully, there are many possible reason's for NQ's current stance, or lack there of, but they are not supported by factual evidence and therefore only serve to detract from your argument. Your actual criticism here is that the lack of information is unnerving and harmful to the community.

 

Forums in general are not a place for pure fact and objectivity -- even if they were, it isn't like we have the capacity to know facts beyond what NQ shares with us.

 

Speculation and emotion is a part of every community. Anyone that's ever engaged in online discussion should temper what they read with this understanding. 

 

People have a right to be emotional and to speculate -- speculation and emotion is just one element of discussion. Speculation is a useful facet of conversation -- people speculate about history and politics because it leads to interesting thought experiments and "what ifs" that allow us to wonder about an ocean of possibilities. 

 

I do agree that there's an important distinction between complaints, emotions, and speculation and outright hostility, lies, and irrationality.

 

An obligatory reminder: this is just a game for us...for those people working at NQ, it's their livelihood and for some, the last 5-6 years of their career.

 

As emotional as players are, those that have spent a lot of time and energy working on the game are even more emotionally invested and likely even more acutely aware of the uphill battle NQ has in stabilizing and scaling their company. So...say what you want, but it's worth remembering that behind this game are a lot of likely overworked and underpaid human beings that have a lot more at stake than any player. 

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26 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

It's easy to say that you simply shouldn't pay if you don't want to, but some people committed to longer-term subscriptions.

Getting to keep what you have is not and never was a given nor a promise.

 

 

26 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

.especially since a big part of the pitch to join early access was persistence. 

Persistence in that context was never "part of the pitch". Yes, many players may have tried to make that claim and even may have tried to change th facts, but it's a simple as that. 

 

A subscription give you access to the server and that is it. I get the frustration and I get that it may seem unfair or unreasonable and that players want to see NQ commit to something here. But best case you will keep blueprints and talent points go back to the queue and if that happens, you have effectively been given what directly represents the time you had access (as far as the talent points go)

If NQ does not return Talent points then still they are not required to do so but I can see an argument for that being rather harsh and unfair.


If you say that it is quite possible NQ will run into a massive sh*tstorm if they keep taking subs from new players without clear communication on the wipe then yes, I can see that, even when it is still not justified. But they will run into a wall of comments and bad videos on YT for sure, whether they are justified or not. That is why NQ really just needs to come out and announce as it won't be long now...

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2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

That is why NQ really just needs to come out and announce as it won't be long now...


Exactly rip off the bandaid, stop stringing us along.

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