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The exchange deepdive


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While I appreciate the effort Nicodemus put into this, I still feel this exchange is not a good idea.

 

  • It effectively DOES bypass the player driven content allready available
  • IMO better player suggested alternatives exist
  • FAR better player created alternatives exist
  • For the scale and player pop NQ will have to be looking for/aiming at, this is extremel;y insufficient spacewise as this will probably fill up wel before the new players actually get to the point they can use the exchange and lock them out of that opportunity
  • Lag will be a thing here.. a major thing
  • I am stil not convinced this wil be a massive exploit loophole waiting to happen

 

 

On a sidenote,

  • The video _really_ shows the terrible lighting in DU very nicely.
  • With an empty world, if not offline walkthrough, the framerate shown in the video is not great at best.
  • Production wise, NQ please do better sound and record the voiceover properly, the quality here is really bad. The voice itself is fine but the recording is not..

 

 

 

 

 

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Larger problem is, that NQ pretty much choked actual player-made content/life (EVE-like conflict/competition driven "societal dynamics") and now desperatly trying to simulate some, apealing to minorty of surviving building/grinding nerds.

 

Its still major lack of content, mechanics and goals in game, this why organic playing experience will continue to stuggle and shrink.

 

Overall, who needs another empty grey boring halls with game already full of them. 

 

 

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I like the idea, think it can work as an exhibition centre.

It will be a good in-game visual representation of player content.

"Oh, player x has this" walk 10 steps "This is cool, may VR our to that showroom" walk 10 steps " Cool a free BP dispenser, I will check out this players coords"

At the moment we have luck of the draw VR, scratch around discord etc

This is ideal for new players they can teleport, get free stuff from creators go back home try stuff.

Its engaging.

 

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If these were used as exhibition centers where Aphelia organises frequent shows and (rotating) events then sure.. that might make more sense and I could actually se that be a thing that works..

I still feel that an idea like this but used to integrate du-creators into the game would be a far better idea. And the game would support doing that now..

 

BTW.. I tried cleaning up the audio but he source material is really low quality and is very "dirty" as far as noise and issues with background pops and stuff (I could see this being recorded on either a not so great wireless headset or on a system with some serious grounding issues). And as soon as you pump up the volume to EQ and compress it, those become painfully loud regardless of what you try.. I could not even repair it enough to make it usable unless igo do all that by hand, which is obviously not happening .

 

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The exhibition hall likely required very little actual dev. Especially with manual moderation, they probably had to write little to no code. 

 

I agree 100% that there's better ideas, but as we're all aware, NQ is focusing mostly on optimization and performance prior to release (they have a lot of work to do there). 

 

They probably believed this was a good way to feature player content without any strain on limited dev resources.
 

53 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

I still feel that an idea like this but used to integrate du-creators into the game would be a far better idea. And the game would support doing that now..

 

Integrating DU-creators sounds like an awesome idea, but there's logistical complexity and developer cost to that.

 

Do they have an API already? How robust and scalable is it? Who pays for it / owns it? What if it goes offline? 

 

What if DU explodes in popularity and they demand more money or they'll take the service offline? Or their site gets hacked? Or they simply get bored and don't want to maintain it? 

 

Granted this isn't an overly complex site and NQ could develop it themselves, but that goes back to developer resources (and game devs often don't know web development). 

 

I personally wouldn't be eager to integrate any third party system into a commercial product -- there's a lot of business and technical caveats that would create a lot of headaches. 

Edited by blundertwink
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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

While I appreciate the effort Nicodemus put into this, I still feel this exchange is not a good idea.

If the intention here is to start a discussion on Nicodemus's recent deep dive video then could I trouble you to provide a link to it in your opening post alongside your thoughts/insights. It would also be nice if you could elaborate a bit on the alternative ideas you are alluding to or provide links to where we can read more about them. I know its a bit of a chore but your a forum veteran so I figure you could lead by example and show the rest of the playerbase how to write good topics that elicit or convey constructive criticism/feedback.

 

As to the topic at hand, Blundertwink made a good point that it has a low initial development cost since it just makes use of existing mechanics. I think its worth giving the exchange an honest try and then adapting/modifying it as needed.

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5 hours ago, blundertwink said:

The exhibition hall likely required very little actual dev. Especially with manual moderation, they probably had to write little to no code. 

 

SO did the ideas from several others, including mine

 

5 hours ago, blundertwink said:

I agree 100% that there's better ideas, but as we're all aware, NQ is focusing mostly on optimization and performance prior to release (they have a lot of work to do there). 

And this idea will effectively be a magnet for lag as there is one exchange and it may drive traffic to it  in number, certainly early on

 

 

5 hours ago, blundertwink said:

Integrating DU-creators sounds like an awesome idea, but there's logistical complexity and developer cost to that.

The game UI engine/framework allows for webistes to be viewd on screens. We could in Alpha but it was disabled for "performance" and probably cost reasons. 

NQ could work withthe DU-creators owners to make it somewhat more modular, which probably mostly just needs different CSS for the in game purpose, not really all that complex.

 

It could then offer teleport pads to bring you to the players site, allowing you to buy and take blueprints back. I do not see how that woudl be terribly complex or expensive to do.

 

5 hours ago, blundertwink said:

Do they have an API already? How robust and scalable is it? Who pays for it / owns it? What if it goes offline? 

 

For this? As said, it's an existing featre of the tools they use fo rthe UI anyway (which is ahwt drives Lua and the screen as well) 

 

 

5 hours ago, blundertwink said:

What if DU explodes in popularity and they demand more money or they'll take the service offline? Or their site gets hacked? Or they simply get bored and don't want to maintain it? 

 

That is for NQ to cover, they could offer to compensate the designer of the site and manage it themselves or hire him to do it. I do not see how that woudl weigh it all that much on the overall picture, especialy relative to the cost it woudl involve

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Msoul said:

 could I trouble you to provide a link to it in your opening post alongside your thoughts/insights.

I'll add the link in OP.

I have posted my personal idea from back in 2020 severl times already when the exchange first appeared on our radar.. not that I expect NQ ever saw it then  or bothered to see it now.

I repeated some of my ideas around how the exchange could actually better integrate and server an actual purpose in relation to the existing player content already.

 

 

 

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Given the restrictions, I am not overly afraid of major lag. And as it is human curated i do not really see an exploit waiting to happen either.

Apply via webseite, a GM takes your construct, by hand, pastes it into position, looks, nods, moves on. Any exploit there is an exploit that could also be done via placing a dynamic core at the market.

 

As said elsewhere, this is the effort by mostly Nicodemus who wanted to ad a "better than nothing" low cost thing which does not take away game design and coder time, which seems to be even more rare for NQ than many other studios (where it is also always a precious commodity).

 

About the DU-C thing. Think about these two:


Marketbot sells "expo tokens". Price starts stupid high but goes down 5% every hour. (After one hour, if unsold, unlisted, relisted for 5% less than last time). 20 total are sold each 2 weeks. Owner of a expo-token can display and sell his ship at the UEF store. 10 expo-token for BPs only, 10 for full ships like current UEF ships, prices determined by seller, who also has to feed the dispenser himself.
So now there are player sold ships, at prime locations, but those prime locations are not spammed by everybody who wants to sell something. one org could always buy all token, but that would be a expensive joke. And no org wants to be hated for making live harder for new players.

 

Or

 

Virtual store, upload ship schematic to VR, ship can be tested in VR by anybody and even the bp purchased (yes, in VR). Is removed after 2 weeks without sale.

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5 minutes ago, Gottchar said:

 Any exploit there is an exploit that could also be done via placing a dynamic core at the market.

 

Not really unless:

  • Lots on the exchange do not persist across the wipe
  • On removal by request of the owner, the lot is not returned to the owner.

If lots persist and are returned when a remove request is made, that would ba a serious exploit unless NQ prohibits the placement of elements on the lots. The "rules" are not in any way covering this.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Gottchar said:

As said elsewhere, this is the effort by mostly Nicodemus who wanted to ad a "better than nothing" low cost thing which does not take away game design and coder time, which seems to be even more rare for NQ than many other studios (where it is also always a precious commodity).

 

WHile true, there is better ways to do this, with a potentially lower cost and possible bigger exposure for players.

 

Simple things like managed screens at markets like the ones CCP has in stations in EVE.

Or setting up a "mall deck" as part of the biggest markets in the general Aphelia zone.

 

The limitations that NQ is throwing up for the subkmissions kind of tell you how concerned they are with the impact just one of these has. And at the same time, having just one pretty much designates the location as a lag magnet due to traffic in and out of the site.

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Gottchar said:

About the DU-C thing. Think about these two:

 

Too complex IMO..

 

  • Use DU-C data
  • in the exchange, players find screens, much like market terminals
  • screens allow them to browse DU-C content
  • When they see something they like, they can press a button and teleport to the DU-C location where they can shop the actual Blueprint.
  • At the site the hosting player must have a "return to Exchange" pad or button
  • Player returns to exchange with the blueprint

 

All this is possible now with in game options and is very low cost in resources and dev time. It turns the idea of the exchange into a central hub for players to visit and shop at other players's locations in  a simple and effective way.

 

If successful, duplicating the concept to markets and/or districts is simple and again, low cost.

 

 

If the idea of an ecxchange as it is not announced woudl be maintained, changing it to a simple mall on a square platform attached to existing markets is far more accessible, wil loffer more space, and will drive players to a more centralised location for trade and commerce.

 

As with so many thing NQ does, and IMO, the base idea is not that bad, but the execution is not very well throught through and shows very short term thinking.

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History Repeating Itself:
I just feel if something like this was in demand by the community, the community could have or already has built it's version of it.
It is just a repeat of the shipyard they had on display via VR essentially. Which by now is mostly forgotten and rarely visited.

It isn't supposed to replace player content, it just does by design, because it is an NQ featured build that should be left to the community.
NQ overall directs the player's path and where they go during the first time user experience, in which they could make this a pitstop or will advertise it with unfair advantage. 
 
That said many of us have stated that this is unwanted, but NQ never asked us before they dropped it on us, and when we complained they went ahead as per typical NQ approach. This is history repeating itself, and NQ is just showing they don't learn, cause they don't listen.


NQ's Mentality for Forum Management ='s How they Are Trying to Curate Player Content via In Game:
BTW waiting for this thread to be locked because it isn't the NQ controlled version of discussion. I feel the fact that nearly half the front page of this forum section is filled with NQ controlled/posted threads is reflective to their approach on development.

"This is a community forum! locks tons of player threads, forces everyone into an NQ created thread."
Therefore the Alioth Exchange feels a lot like a repeat of that mentality.

If a thread has truly run it's course then wouldn't it fall of the first page onto page 2 or 3? That is how most forums work.
So I guess by NQ logic player built show rooms and markets have just run their course...


The Constructive Feedback for NQ:
1. Stop trying to curate existing in-game content and what is scene.
2. Start creating more for the player to do in the game world that functions well.
3. Give control of the "community forums" back to the community, instead of taking up half the front page with NQ created/curated/controlled threads.
 

Edited by Rokkur
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On 6/24/2022 at 4:05 PM, blazemonger said:
  • Production wise, NQ please do better sound and record the voiceover properly, the quality here is really bad. The voice itself is fine but the recording is not..

But ironically it is also very representative of how NQ does things, where stuff usually has a core that is good idea but the execution is.. well.. NQ'ish.

Ie. pick someone with a great voice, but then use a crappy microphone and make the recording in the bathroom by the sound of it.

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In my analysis of the audio I heard a lot of noise that is typical for a low cost wireless mic and some serious noise coming from a badly built PC or a laptop with grounding issues..

 

I was actually abale to clean it up fairly decently with a specialized repair/restauration tool for audio but the background music from the game ruined any chance of doing a proper improved audio track as so much needed to be cut you get just snippets from that while he speaks.

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You would think a good directional mic could be considered a business expense when doing public work like this.

And a big plus for work collaboration in general since I get the feeling he is working from home, and if not then there really is no excuse.

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That and talking into a curtain or duvet tagged to a wall when recording a voiceover.

 

A decent enough USB mic will set you back maybe $100

A good voice processing tool to get it ready for the video is maybe another $100

 

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Havent played since the introduction of Mining Units. Popped back to see how things are going (havent logged in to the actual game though) and I can see that my hopes of the game finding itself again are just a pipe dream.  So glad I left when I did and didnt waste any more time and money hoping that NQ would continue to deliver against the concept we all originally bought into.

 

Also, watched this video… C R. I. N. G. E.

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9 minutes ago, space_man said:

It's a joke right? Are they really expecting anyone to visit more than once (after the curiosity has passed).


Sadly it isn't a joke. NQ actually does think it will be an active hub. Never mind that nearly no one is logged in except to calibrate MU's / check skills and log. 
This would have been much much better left to the community to do instead back when there were active orgs online.

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The whole point of creating anything but no purpose shows NQs lack of understanding of games and MMOs. Ohhhhh you built a cabin by the woods. Why do I wanna visit? What can I do there. Does it protect me from the elements? Can I buy something there? 

 

And now with this exchange its like the aphelia markets taking the small reason to even go to someone's places physically (buy a BP or token) is slowly being taken away.  NQ might be able to turn a profit if this was like space engineers and they has the players rent and pay for servers and tweak rules to their liking.  As it stands now they keep removing as much player driven content as they can.

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The exchange will be nice for those individuals who don't want to get involved with an org, but still want a central place to show their stuff. I don't see the exchange replacing the player created showcases. There is no way that the exchange will have as much hands on involvement it would need for that to happen. It seems more like a replacement for the Market Advertising clutter.

 

And the big orgs are not gone, not all of them anyway. Some of them are just sleeping for awhile. The renaissance will come. 

 

 

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If NQ wanted to minimize market clutter in any serious manner, they could have done so years ago, like literally. 

Also, just redesigning the market building to add screens and manage/curate what is shown on these woudl have served that purpose for the most part as well.

 

 

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So as a player, you have to fly from somewhere to these community advertising houses, and then see the offers of the other players there, and then fly to those offers. Why should I fly there again? What other interesting things are there in this place to make the flight there worthwhile? I mean, once I've been there, at what intervals would I fly there again and why? Currently, I rather go to a website, let's just call it du-creator and search through hundreds of different offers, including filter system and then fly directly to where I want to get what I want. Now and then there is even delivery to my location.
I feel this content is somehow beside the point, uninteresting and a waste of time in the current state of the game.

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If they wanted an innovative way to do Alioth Exchange, that had real utility. They would combine Second Life's marketplace (similar to Amazon for it's virtual world), with Sketchfab's ability to preview a 3D model or asset, and do this without ever leaving the in-game window of Dual Universe. 

Of course this won't happen cause it would take substantial resources, and they are too busy with internal discussions... 🤣

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20 hours ago, Zarcata said:

Why should I fly there again?

Flying places and exploring the creations there is fun.

 

The more places there are to explore the better. There is no problem with The Exchange existing. I just hope that it will be well managed. I think it is foolish to just assume that it will somehow be a failure.  Surprisingly anyone who thinks that they can curate a better collection has that opportunity.  There have been several such locations in the game already. There will be more. 

 

 

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The idea of the exchange is fine. The problem lies in the way NQ isolates it from what is already in place and how it becomes a single point on the map which would more likely find a meaningful use if it was either located at or combined with existing POI.

 

Adding the concept of the exchange to markets is trivial and would likely yield a faster and better response. 

Placing the Exchange at the same location as the central tutorial location would make sense as it then becomes a logical next step if new players are to visit the location.

 

As a single location, IF it gains traction and become popular, which is obviously possible, the next and predictable set of issues will come into play around performance. We all know that if left as is, it will just become a massive pile of ships, people will start parking their own stalls outside, will park AGG ships above, will start placing their own advertising at or nearby the location.

 

So yes, the idea is good. Players have suggested something like this for years and have offered sensible and executable options to make it happen. NQ however chooses to just add another potential bottleneck to the mix, with predictable future issues and complications and with the likelihood, seeing NQ's history in this, they will just disengage withe idea as it becomes too much trouble to manage.

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