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On 6/18/2022 at 7:51 AM, Rokkur said:

The problem for pvp in Dual Universe is at the very least the ratio of risk vs. reward is very out of balance and unpleasant for the player.

Part of the issue here is the amount of players playing vs. the amount of pvpers. I don't know the current ratio, but at one point (due to the wipe vs. no wipe shenanigans) a ton of mission runners stopped running missions and the amount of pirates vs. missioners became hugely unbalanced. While at a time in the past, pirates just couldn't reach everyone that left the planet...

 

Opening up more space/planets to pvp isn't going to improve the situation for anyone. More 'carebears' (like myself) will just not operate in unsafe space, unless there's an upside. With so few players trying that and with oodles of pirates, they'll get swatted everytime they try leaving Alioth, because now you're no longer camping many safezones, but just one...

 

Honestly, if there's to be planetary warfare, I need viable walker constructs, have handheld guns, etc. If we have that, I'll make bases on ice planets! 😉

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12 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

a ton of mission runners stopped running missions and the amount of pirates vs. missioners became hugely unbalanced

 

And let's be real...sniping mission runners is PvP only in the lamest sense.

 

It's puzzling how some PvP players complain about players "not wanting to take risks" when many pirates operate the exact same way...

 

I agree that risk vs. reward is way out of balance with DU.

 

The best PvP games embrace loss -- especially in a context where there's zero way to practice combat other than PvP, loss needs to be less of a grind and annoyance. Reality is that it's not 1999 anymore...if you want to be a massively multiplayer game, you need to design for the gaming mentalities that exist today.

 

A boring grind to replace a ship after being ganked (or simply losing a battle) has little actual game design justification -- how does that improve engagement when the 'grind' is mostly just waiting for AMs to churn out ore, anyway? 

 

If DU really wants to be so niche, that's fine...but then it should have never been an MMO to begin with. 

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4 hours ago, blundertwink said:

 

And let's be real...sniping mission runners is PvP only in the lamest sense.

 

It's puzzling how some PvP players complain about players "not wanting to take risks" when many pirates operate the exact same way...

 

I agree that risk vs. reward is way out of balance with DU.

 

The best PvP games embrace loss -- especially in a context where there's zero way to practice combat other than PvP, loss needs to be less of a grind and annoyance. Reality is that it's not 1999 anymore...if you want to be a massively multiplayer game, you need to design for the gaming mentalities that exist today.

 

A boring grind to replace a ship after being ganked (or simply losing a battle) has little actual game design justification -- how does that improve engagement when the 'grind' is mostly just waiting for AMs to churn out ore, anyway? 

 

If DU really wants to be so niche, that's fine...but then it should have never been an MMO to begin with. 


Damn everything about this post is just SO on point Blundertwink! 

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Whether we are PvE or PvP we are bored anyway.

The chests are very quickly all overflowing with resources and there is no activity.
As soon as my interest returns for DU I build a new ship (it's very pleasant) and then well I return to play on another game. Because there is literally nothing to do on DU with my new ship.

Not even a fast place to go to shoot stuff with the last gunship you made.
Not even a transport mission where you will pilot your ship to slalom between nebulae and asteroids.

Everything is bland and boring. There is no interaction between players. There is no end game apart from collecting resources to have more resources...

Where is the territory control? Where are the markets and installation managed by the players?

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7 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:

Whether we are PvE or PvP we are bored anyway.

The chests are very quickly all overflowing with resources and there is no activity.
As soon as my interest returns for DU I build a new ship (it's very pleasant) and then well I return to play on another game. Because there is literally nothing to do on DU with my new ship.

Not even a fast place to go to shoot stuff with the last gunship you made.
Not even a transport mission where you will pilot your ship to slalom between nebulae and asteroids.

Everything is bland and boring. There is no interaction between players. There is no end game apart from collecting resources to have more resources...

Where is the territory control? Where are the markets and installation managed by the players?


But hey, you still have access to the servers! 🤣I think this right here (your post) seriously highlights the point I am making in my thread about people paying for subscription. Some people think I am out to just be a negative nelly, but these are serious problems, and I don't feel they are being handled well or in a way that respects the community.

I don't think giving people the option to pause their subscription so they can wait for the game to improve is really so unreasonable, especially given just how things are right now.

Edited by Rokkur
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1 hour ago, Rokkur said:

I don't think giving people the option to pause their subscription so they can wait for the game to improve is really so unreasonable, especially given just how things are right now.


 

Being able to temporarily stop the subscription is contrary to the marketing strategy.
 

If the team closes the monthly payment to switch to a system with a reduction for a large commitment period, it is precisely to keep your funding during an update that you will have temporarily left the game.
 

But it is not for me a bad calculation for the consumer from the moment when the DAC system will be integrated which will allow you again to benefit from a subscription to the month according to your desire.
 

We are between those 2 periods so you want to be able to suspend your subscription. But these are not some things that NQ should allow you to do in my opinion.

------------------------------
 

And to come back to me.
I come back to the game because I have my alpha tester account.
I will also stay on it the months after the release thanks to my DAC reserve.

Once this reserve is exhausted then I think we would be at a good stage to assess if NQ has done what is necessary for the game to live.

(The only way to salvation is in my opinion the territory warfare  and the PvP that goes with it, it's the only game mechanic that could give a boost to this one in the media twitch/youtube)

 

If NQ gives me a reason to come and play regularly with ships that I build voxel by voxel then I will maintain my support for years to come.

If they settle for a universe with no player interaction then it will be without me.
And let's not be fooled if only the solo and selfish PVE builders are left, then the game will end before the end of 2023.

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Exactly, unless you have real system wide pvp, territory control, and real constant player interaction this game is better suited for servers they rent out like space engineers.  As the game stands I don't see any real point at all for single shard.  It's a detriment to all other mechanics, which can be fine if the focus is on player interaction but this game is all about build your own ship, your own land, then beg people to come see it in VR or post screen shots some where. It's boring and this won't be sustainable as a subscription mmo.

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On 6/17/2022 at 10:51 PM, Rokkur said:

The problem for pvp in Dual Universe is at the very least the ratio of risk vs. reward is very out of balance and unpleasant for the player.

In Ark. it cost 100 times more to destroy an item then it was to create an item. In DU I feel its the exact opposite, its 100 times easier to destroy an item then it is to make an item.  

 

And for those crying about PVP space being to small. I am sure you have all your assets parked out in PVP space?  You dont have anything parked inside the safe zone?  That way other people can PVP your assets when you are offline, or someone that is bigger and badder then you can PVP you when your online.

 

Or is it you have all your stuff parked in the safe zone, same as everybody else? Its like you want everyone else to be a target for you, but not you to be a target for them. 

 

 

 

There is 0 reason to remove any of the safe zones around any of the planets. If the only safe zone was sanctuary then everyone would live on sanctuary, all the other planets would become abandoned.  Removing the safe zone around the outer planets will serve no purpose other then a smoargusboard of initial kills of everything that is out there. And then noone will build on those planets ever again. For the same reason you dont have your stuff parked out in PVP space right now. And deep space is a hell of allot safer then a PVP planet would be. 

 

Now with all that said. A war declaration system will be needed. that way players can fight other players in safe zones. Although discussion on such a system would deserve its own forum thread. 

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55 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:

And let's not be fooled if only the solo and selfish PVE builders are left, then the game will end before the end of 2023.


What makes a creative player so much more selfish than someone waiting to blow some one up for giggles?

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1 hour ago, Knight-Sevy said:

(The only way to salvation is in my opinion the territory warfare  and the PvP that goes with it, it's the only game mechanic that could give a boost to this one in the media twitch/youtube)

[...]
And let's not be fooled if only the solo and selfish PVE builders are left, then the game will end before the end of 2023.

 

Okay, but TW may never be rolled out universally because the game can't physically handle it at scale and possibly never will. There's a reason NQ spawns asteroids and alien cores as they do. 

 

I don't understand why you think more PvP will give the game a "boost" in any media channel. I've seen plenty of videos posted to YouTube etc. with very few views...and that's understandable because watching combat in DU is absurdly boring. It's not very watchable or interesting...especially compared to other PvP games. 

 

If watching combat is so engaging, why isn't it more popular on media today? Only because TW is missing...? I'm not convinced. 

 

Again, this idea that the game will fail without your specific vision for PvP is a false dichotomy -- there's more choices than just your way or nothingness...there's an infinite spectrum of possibilities between.

 

"Selfish" players are those that insist again and again that theirs is the only vision that will work. 

 

I don't disagree that the game will end before 2023...but it isn't as simple as merely turning on TW and removing safe zones -- it'll need a lot more than just that. 

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3 hours ago, RugesV said:

In Ark. it cost 100 times more to destroy an item then it was to create an item. In DU I feel its the exact opposite, its 100 times easier to destroy an item then it is to make an item.  

 

And for those crying about PVP space being to small. I am sure you have all your assets parked out in PVP space?  You dont have anything parked inside the safe zone?  That way other people can PVP your assets when you are offline, or someone that is bigger and badder then you can PVP you when your online.

 

Or is it you have all your stuff parked in the safe zone, same as everybody else? Its like you want everyone else to be a target for you, but not you to be a target for them. 

 

 

 

There is 0 reason to remove any of the safe zones around any of the planets. If the only safe zone was sanctuary then everyone would live on sanctuary, all the other planets would become abandoned.  Removing the safe zone around the outer planets will serve no purpose other then a smoargusboard of initial kills of everything that is out there. And then noone will build on those planets ever again. For the same reason you dont have your stuff parked out in PVP space right now. And deep space is a hell of allot safer then a PVP planet would be. 

 

Now with all that said. A war declaration system will be needed. that way players can fight other players in safe zones. Although discussion on such a system would deserve its own forum thread. 

 

Your [filtered]ing crazy. Just look at EvE everything exists in the pvp zone. But if your active you don't lose your shit while offline because you have timers to your station, or NPC stations in some areas. But player stations give bonuses so not use them. No one wants to lose their shit offline where is the fun in that. But losing your stuff while online? That's just good gameplay.  And if you own a player stations and Don't log on for 1 month and have no friends or Corp mates to watch over it that's on you. It's why most player stations are run by groups to ease the burden.  But its all about choices. EvE gives you choice DU does not. I'd h

Gladly Live full time in a pvp zone if there were more benefits then some stupid plasma and also I could Park my ships and not lose them while I'm at work.  I've heard arguments like yours since day 1 of du kick starter and the are the dumbest of the dumb.

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18 minutes ago, CousinSal said:

 

Your [filtered]ing crazy. Just look at EvE everything exists in the pvp zone. But if your active you don't lose your shit while offline because you have timers to your station, or NPC stations in some areas. But player stations give bonuses so not use them. No one wants to lose their shit offline where is the fun in that. But losing your stuff while online? That's just good gameplay.  And if you own a player stations and Don't log on for 1 month and have no friends or Corp mates to watch over it that's on you. It's why most player stations are run by groups to ease the burden.  But its all about choices. EvE gives you choice DU does not. I'd h

Gladly Live full time in a pvp zone if there were more benefits then some stupid plasma and also I could Park my ships and not lose them while I'm at work.  I've heard arguments like yours since day 1 of du kick starter and the are the dumbest of the dumb.

 

I don't understand your bad attitude, here. 

 

You're saying you'd gladly live in a PvP zone full time, but only if the game is different than what it is today...?

 

Okay...but @RugesV wasn't talking about some theoretical version of PvP that doesn't exist. I think the war declaration system is a nice compromise that could bring more life to the org system and bring some level of conflict into the safe zones.  

 

It wouldn't matter if you were more polite about it...but then you say these arguments are "the dumbest of the dumb"...

 

"I'd gladly live in the PvP zone...if only PvP had more benefits and also worked totally different than it does today"

 

Basically you talked about how Eve works then called someone dumb...? Not especially productive, polite, or convincing. 

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2 hours ago, CousinSal said:

I've heard arguments like yours since day 1 of du kick starter and the are the dumbest of the dumb.


I think @RugesV is exactly on point with imbalance of risk vs. reward. So maybe granualize vs. umbrella which part of the argument you disagree with?
His arguments which you may disagree with are well articulated and I like them even if I don't agree with every point.

There are so many times I fail at articulating in the way I would like then another forum member writes it out... and I am like [filtered] I wish I would have said it like that!

Edited by Rokkur
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16 hours ago, Rokkur said:


What makes a creative player so much more selfish than someone waiting to blow some one up for giggles?


Because a PvP player is a "complete" player compared to a PvE only player.
 

Overall a PvE player does not bring much to the game: no interaction, he fills the servers with his shit which makes everyone lazy and costs NQ money unnecessarily.
 

While PvP players also do all of these, often much more effectively, they also team up with other players on a daily basis (which is what an MMO is all about).
 

In short, a PvP player often has a much better vision of the game as a whole than the few PvE militants for the closure of the game in 2 years for lack of players to finance the servers.
 

=> Besides, PvP players don't want PvE to have no place to do their stuff in the game. It's PvE that is massively racist towards PvP.
 

You have a safe zone with 3 planets and several moons. Nobody wants to take it away from you.
PvP only wants to have the outer rim planets open to PvP (as promised since the kickstarter phases of the game).

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15 hours ago, blundertwink said:

 

Okay, but TW may never be rolled out universally because the game can't physically handle it at scale and possibly never will. There's a reason NQ spawns asteroids and alien cores as they do. 

 

I don't understand why you think more PvP will give the game a "boost" in any media channel. I've seen plenty of videos posted to YouTube etc. with very few views...and that's understandable because watching combat in DU is absurdly boring. It's not very watchable or interesting...especially compared to other PvP games. 

 

If watching combat is so engaging, why isn't it more popular on media today? Only because TW is missing...? I'm not convinced. 

 

Again, this idea that the game will fail without your specific vision for PvP is a false dichotomy -- there's more choices than just your way or nothingness...there's an infinite spectrum of possibilities between.

 

"Selfish" players are those that insist again and again that theirs is the only vision that will work. 

 

I don't disagree that the game will end before 2023...but it isn't as simple as merely turning on TW and removing safe zones -- it'll need a lot more than just that. 


Precisely the pvp on the planets will bring back all the visual of the fights which is absent in the space part because we fight at 400 kilometers of distances.
 

If NQ does all the new animations for PvP, it's precisely to prepare for its arrival on the atmosphere part.
 

When the fights will be in close range 3 or 5 km) at much lower speeds then visual it will be much more impactful than the current PvP.

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13 hours ago, CousinSal said:

 

Your [filtered]ing crazy. Just look at EvE everything exists in the pvp zone. But if your active you don't lose your shit while offline because you have timers to your station, or NPC stations in some areas. But player stations give bonuses so not use them. No one wants to lose their shit offline where is the fun in that. But losing your stuff while online? That's just good gameplay.  And if you own a player stations and Don't log on for 1 month and have no friends or Corp mates to watch over it that's on you. It's why most player stations are run by groups to ease the burden.  But its all about choices. EvE gives you choice DU does not. I'd h

Gladly Live full time in a pvp zone if there were more benefits then some stupid plasma and also I could Park my ships and not lose them while I'm at work.  I've heard arguments like yours since day 1 of du kick starter and the are the dumbest of the dumb.

 

Exactly, we're really left out, and PvE always wants to blame NQ failures on PvP players.

Give us the possibility of having a spatial territory on which to land ships WITHOUT them being able to be destroyed when we are offline.

It's outrageous that NQ put the shields on the stations but it doesn't protect anything but 1 poor space core.

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59 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:


Because a PvP player is a "complete" player compared to a PvE only player.
 

Overall a PvE player does not bring much to the game: no interaction, he fills the servers with his shit which makes everyone lazy and costs NQ money unnecessarily.
 

While PvP players also do all of these, often much more effectively, they also team up with other players on a daily basis (which is what an MMO is all about).
 

In short, a PvP player often has a much better vision of the game as a whole than the few PvE militants for the closure of the game in 2 years for lack of players to finance the servers.
 

=> Besides, PvP players don't want PvE to have no place to do their stuff in the game. It's PvE that is massively racist towards PvP.
 

You have a safe zone with 3 planets and several moons. Nobody wants to take it away from you.
PvP only wants to have the outer rim planets open to PvP (as promised since the kickstarter phases of the game).


 

It's been a long time since I've read such a self-indulgent text. 

The PvP player is not worth more or less than a PvE player. 
PvE players are not all solo players either, what makes you think that? Likewise, I don't know any players who want to ban PvP completely from the game, on the contrary, there are more players who would prefer to remove all safe zones.

On the point of too few players and the game dies - this scenario applies to both types of players. There are too few PvE players, but also too few PvP players if you want to keep the game alive.

What I find funny myself, it's often accused of PvE players that DualUniverse is a sandbox game. So supposedly you only need self-created content to be happy. Funny, because it's mostly PvP players who need content to make sense of their "PvP". Funny, isn't it? Conflicts can be created without content, great battles don't need content, only the will to participate in PvP. You can also have big battles with basic engines and basic weapons. But that's right, then your own skill is needed if the opponent would suddenly be equally strong. That's why so eager to hold the alien cores to secure an advantage there in battle.
DualUniverse needs more players, whether PvP or PvE players. Likewise, the game needs more content to keep players engaged. Neither the building content nor the lousy PvP system are able to keep players in the game for years.

 

Edited by Zarcata
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1 hour ago, Knight-Sevy said:


Precisely the pvp on the planets will bring back all the visual of the fights which is absent in the space part because we fight at 400 kilometers of distances.
 

If NQ does all the new animations for PvP, it's precisely to prepare for its arrival on the atmosphere part.
 

When the fights will be in close range 3 or 5 km) at much lower speeds then visual it will be much more impactful than the current PvP.

A nice dream, when should it come into play and work? I see the planet PvP as boring as the alien core system.

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5 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:


Because a PvP player is a "complete" player compared to a PvE only player.
 

Overall a PvE player does not bring much to the game: no interaction, he fills the servers with his shit which makes everyone lazy and costs NQ money unnecessarily.
 

While PvP players also do all of these, often much more effectively, they also team up with other players on a daily basis (which is what an MMO is all about).
 

In short, a PvP player often has a much better vision of the game as a whole than the few PvE militants for the closure of the game in 2 years for lack of players to finance the servers.
 

=> Besides, PvP players don't want PvE to have no place to do their stuff in the game. It's PvE that is massively racist towards PvP.
 

You have a safe zone with 3 planets and several moons. Nobody wants to take it away from you.
PvP only wants to have the outer rim planets open to PvP (as promised since the kickstarter phases of the game).

 

Hah, this whole diatribe is rather hilarious. You actually used the phrase "It's PvE that is massively racist towards PvP."

 

That's really all that anyone needs to read to understand the quality of your..."philosophy"

 

Comparing something as inane as PvP / PvE to racism is a clearly articulated, evolved perspective. Riiiight....

 

And FWIW, this whole blaming other players for playing the product they paid for as they want is childish and boring.

 

It's NQs job to design the game and they decided on this crude melding between PvE sandbox builder and full open world PvP (with niche, UI-driven combat). It was NQ that pitched being able to do whatever you want and fill any role you want. 

 

If combat and PvP were really so utterly fun and interesting, more people would do it and NQ would therefore prioritize it higher. It's not complicated. 

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On 6/15/2022 at 11:23 AM, Zeddrick said:

The non PvP area has all the planets and moons and all the markets.

The PVP planets might still have safe zones on them but as I understand it these are temporary until planet warfare is added (I thought it was part of the PVP updated). Anyway the safe zone actually consists of about four planets and a few moons (count dependant on sanctuary planets being included) beyond that is all PVP space, which includes most of the planets and I assume moons.

 

With the speed changes made recently makes travelling between the planets (meaningfully with a ship moving goods) in PVP space (regardless of planet sanctuary still being in place) really dangerous, so there really is no issue with the safe zone in the centre of the solar system. Not sure why its even been brought up as a point to be honest.

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You should abolish the safezones of the outer "PvP planets" and their moons as planned. But as a compensation you should give the PvP players the same chances as the PvE players and make all ores T1-T5 available on all moons and planets, no matter if in the PvP zone or in the protected area. That PvP players have advantages here should be avoided. You don't need T4/T5 to do PvP, but we need clear and fair conditions in the game, no matter which area you choose as a player.

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1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

You should abolish the safezones of the outer "PvP planets" and their moons as planned. But as a compensation you should give the PvP players the same chances as the PvE players and make all ores T1-T5 available on all moons and planets, no matter if in the PvP zone or in the protected area. That PvP players have advantages here should be avoided. You don't need T4/T5 to do PvP, but we need clear and fair conditions in the game, no matter which area you choose as a player.

 

Like eve online where the whole game world is a pvp zone.  That's the only way for DU to survive. Sanc only for noobs learning the game and limit ores and how many machines they can have. 

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7 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:


(1) Because a PvP player is a "complete" player compared to a PvE only player.
 

(2) Overall a PvE player does not bring much to the game: no interaction, he fills the servers with his shit which makes everyone lazy and costs NQ money unnecessarily.
 

While PvP players also do all of these, often much more effectively, they also team up with other players on a daily basis (which is what an MMO is all about).
 

(3) In short, a PvP player often has a much better vision of the game as a whole than the few PvE militants for the closure of the game in 2 years for lack of players to finance the servers.
 

(4) => Besides, PvP players don't want PvE to have no place to do their stuff in the game. It's PvE that is massively racist towards PvP.
 

(5) You have a safe zone with 3 planets and several moons. Nobody wants to take it away from you.
(6) PvP only wants to have the outer rim planets open to PvP (as promised since the kickstarter phases of the game).


1. Define "complete".

2. So an empty world is better?
    Sounds like you would prefer one where only paid development team artist fill the world with their fodder?
    As a creative player of course I interact with others, otherwise I have no one to SHARE what I make with, which would completely negate a primary drive for creative players.

3. Define "better vision of the game".

4. Creative players are Racist? PvP is not a race. 🤣 (Kinda makes me giggle thinking about "PC MASTER RACE!!!! Bros...)
    Here I giggle again, for having been accused of being too negative and toxic when I criticize NQ,
    but I am not going around calling groups of people racist... 🤣

5. May I refer you to this thread... or the post right above mine... bwaahahaha!
    

Brings to light that SOME pvp players actually do think the game needs to be fully pvp pretty much everywhere with no safe zones, and I have seen those posts stating exactly that.

6. I fully agree with this point, go ahead and turn on pvp for everywhere except for Haven, Sanct, and Alioth, their moons, and the space around the starting planets.
    You will not have any populated planets outside of Haven, Sanct, and Alioth, cause bases will be unsustainable.

    That said, we could fit the current player base only on Sanct and still have plenty of tiles left over with we with the number of players actually active in the last 6 months.



 

Edited by Rokkur
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18 minutes ago, CousinSal said:

 

Like eve online where the whole game world is a pvp zone.  That's the only way for DU to survive. Sanc only for noobs learning the game and limit ores and how many machines they can have. 

why are PvE players in the safezone insulted as noobs? There are enough professional players who only stay in the safe zone.
There is no real skill comparison in the game like in some other PvP games to have a fair competition, unless you would put the PvP players all in the same built ship - although, then there is still the gamble with the hit chance.

Numbers-wise, the game needs all the PvE players in the big safe zone around the 3 planets to survive.
 

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1 minute ago, Zarcata said:

why are PvE players in the safezone insulted as noobs? 
 


It is the Elitist mentally of some unfortunate and misguided members that are subset of the PVP community, that hate on creative players.
This is the subgroup that would say a fish is a noob cause it can't climb a tree, and thankfully they don't make up the whole PVP community.

I think people enjoy PVP when the dynamic is correct. Right now the creative dynamic is better than the PVP dynamic, a failure of NQ in DU.
Otherwise we would see more people participating actively in PVP if it was more rewarding and fun. 

As a primarily creative player, that enjoys pvp, I feel NQ has seriously let down PVP players, and thus a lot of PVP'ers blame the PVE players for it,
Cause the creative side of gameplay is honestly way better done in DU than the PVP.
 

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