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Huge safe zones where you can't wage war. Pvp pushed to the edges for a a few niche plasma 99% of the player base doesn't care about. No player markets, and now NQ making showrooms and exchange because captains customs and all the countless others weren't good enough? This game has 0 npcs or real pve content and was marketed as player driven, yet every patch they restrict what a player can do in the universe.  I don't see this game lasting 6 months past "release".

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The founding idea for DU is still solid. NQ makes the tools and the community makes content.

 

But.. The tools where never made, so obviously the community was never given a chance to make content.

And the content we do have is a credit to a few very dedicated players managing to work around the limits set by NQ more then anything else.

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What is it with you guys and "PvP is too small and only visible at the edges"? PvP is the largest area in the game, so this small safe zone is hardly worth mentioning. 
The problem is not the size of the zone, but that there are too few interested PvP players. But that's not the fault of the PvE players.
What prevents PvPers from building up space bases in PvP and then simply defending them? That's right, you could lose them, which is why PvPers also prefer to build in the safe zone....

 

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48 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

What is it with you guys and "PvP is too small and only visible at the edges"? PvP is the largest area in the game, so this small safe zone is hardly worth mentioning. 
The problem is not the size of the zone, but that there are too few interested PvP players. But that's not the fault of the PvE players.
What prevents PvPers from building up space bases in PvP and then simply defending them? That's right, you could lose them, which is why PvPers also prefer to build in the safe zone....

 

Wrong on every level.  People don't want to lose them OFFLINE. EvE online has every player base in a pvp zone. But we can store ships and loot and factories there. But there is timers. People have lives and can't play a video game 24/7 yo guard base. Bases die daily in eve look at zkillboars. But I don't expect you to understand this simple concept judging by other posts I've read of yours.

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2 hours ago, Zarcata said:

What is it with you guys and "PvP is too small and only visible at the edges"? PvP is the largest area in the game, so this small safe zone is hardly worth mentioning. 
The problem is not the size of the zone, but that there are too few interested PvP players. But that's not the fault of the PvE players.
What prevents PvPers from building up space bases in PvP and then simply defending them? That's right, you could lose them, which is why PvPers also prefer to build in the safe zone....

 

Talking about the physical size of the PvP area is obviously silly.  Instead talk about what is in that area.  The PvP area is mostly empty.  There are some asteroids and 10 alien cores.  That's it.  The non PvP area has all the planets and moons and all the markets.

 

Clearly most of the game is in the non-PvP area regardless of how much big empty space is technically PvP.

 

What is needed for PvP to work isn't space but locations where people go and reasons for being there.  That's how you combine pirates with people who want to risk pirate attacks, etc.

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1 hour ago, Zeddrick said:

Talking about the physical size of the PvP area is obviously silly.  Instead talk about what is in that area.  The PvP area is mostly empty.  There are some asteroids and 10 alien cores.  That's it.  The non PvP area has all the planets and moons and all the markets.

 

Clearly most of the game is in the non-PvP area regardless of how much big empty space is technically PvP.

 

What is needed for PvP to work isn't space but locations where people go and reasons for being there.  That's how you combine pirates with people who want to risk pirate attacks, etc.

 

And a way where we can risk some bases without losing them while we sleep. I've had my EvE bases destroyed on multiple occasions, but because of the timers I was able to be there to try to defend.  Sometimes successfully Sometimes not

 But the fun is in trying an experiencing the battle. 

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1 hour ago, Zeddrick said:

locations where people go and reasons for being there

The most valuable resources are in pvp space. And, assuming pvp players like to pvp, it is also the only place where pvp players can do that thing they like.

People who want to have some tight pvp action are not drawn by pvp, the whole framework doesn’t really work for good pvp. Instead of adding more and more stuff to pvp space, and making changes for all players to balance pvp even if it harms pve players, maybe it is time for NQ to instead look for more ways to make pve more interesting and work with what DU is already quite good at. Look at games like Stormworks, Airmen, Satisfactory to compliment the who player driven, resource management, ship building, civilisation building thing. Stop trying to shoehorn the whole game into the pvp genre.

And if some percentage of the pve players like pvp, you get more pvp players, too. because the pve players can live without the pvp players.

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31 minutes ago, CousinSal said:

 

And a way where we can risk some bases without losing them while we sleep. I've had my EvE bases destroyed on multiple occasions, but because of the timers I was able to be there to try to defend.  Sometimes successfully Sometimes not

 But the fun is in trying an experiencing the battle. 

 

So problem with pvp right now is lack of defensive measures. Not about how big or small pvp area is.

Also we all know that plan is that only 3 planets and their moons inside current safe zone stay safe. Safe zone around other (outer) planets is temporary. Outer planes will be full pvp. 

 

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4 hours ago, CousinSal said:

EvE online has every player base in a pvp zone. 

 

Of course, that is because EVE has no non-PVP zones.

Sure, you run considerable risk in many situations if you choose to engage other players in hisec, but you still can and it can be wildly lucrative and well worth the losses.

 

DU must have safe zones because DU lacks any form of protection for non-combatant players otherwise (which still is the majority of the population and always will be). And the safe zone around Alioth/Madis/Thades is what it is to a big extent due to the way PVP focused players have presented themselves and their intentions in the past.

 

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4 hours ago, CousinSal said:

Wrong on every level.  People don't want to lose them OFFLINE. EvE online has every player base in a pvp zone. But we can store ships and loot and factories there. But there is timers. People have lives and can't play a video game 24/7 yo guard base. Bases die daily in eve look at zkillboars. But I don't expect you to understand this simple concept judging by other posts I've read of yours.

 

 

Wow you really rebuked him there, people do not take unecessary and unrewarding risks, what a keen eye... Now to enlarge the pvp zone...

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3 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

Talking about the physical size of the PvP area is obviously silly.  Instead talk about what is in that area.  The PvP area is mostly empty.  There are some asteroids and 10 alien cores.  That's it.  The non PvP area has all the planets and moons and all the markets.

Then why are PvP players crying? You can just as well build your bases in the much larger PvP area and defend them? How many PvP players have their space base in the PvP area?
You are not forced to build in the PvE area - you can also do that in the PvP area.

You can build a player market in the PvP area as well, what's stopping you? You as PvP players could create this area the way you want it. Get together, create your own RP rules and then make sure that the PvP players follow them. Build a common pirate marketplace that all PvP players guard. Build your own organization space bases and fight each other. You want to PvP - what's stopping you? You don't need T3,4,5...you can create, experience and have fun with PvP even with T1-T2 engines and weapons.

It is simply wrong if a PvP player always needs something special to get PvP ambitions. Look at PvE cities, they just pop up without needing to reward PvE players.

If the outer planets lose their protection, you own even far more, most of the planets then too...and still people would keep crying.

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Always the same two things around here...if it isn't people arguing about a wipe, it's arguing about PvP. Now that the wipe has received 1500 posts with little hope of answers from NQ, it's back to debating about PvP. 

 

I don't get why there's such an obsession with tearing down the safe zones as if that's the only thing the game needs. 

 

Every piece of evidence and history suggests PvP is a niche activity within an already-niche game...combat in DU just isn't interesting to me. It's boring. It's slow. It doesn't perform well. 

 

I play a good amount of actual PvP games. I'm not risk averse or shy about competition or teamwork, and I do wish PvP in this game was better...but the actual mechanics just aren't developed enough. Combat in this game has very little depth.

 

All that aside, removing safe zones is kind of a moot point when there's no prospects of territory war. Why does it matter where there's safe zones when there's literally nothing to fight over...? 

 

Alien cores are DU's only version of territory war for the foreseeable future. Alien cores might be the only version of TW that DU will ever see, period.

 

I see no evidence that they'll magically resolve the many performance issues around combat, and unless they do there's no way they'll roll out TW universally. Maybe we'll see TW in space someday. Big maybe. 

 

TLDR: It's great if you like PVP, but IMO it isn't nearly developed or mainstream enough to "save" this game. 

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1 hour ago, blundertwink said:

All that aside, removing safe zones is kind of a moot point when there's no prospects of territory war. Why does it matter where there's safe zones when there's literally nothing to fight over...?

 

It's a sandbox , it should be easy for pvp people to come up with a reason to pewpew :):)

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4 hours ago, CousinSal said:

 

And a way where we can risk some bases without losing them while we sleep. I've had my EvE bases destroyed on multiple occasions, but because of the timers I was able to be there to try to defend.  Sometimes successfully Sometimes not

 But the fun is in trying an experiencing the battle. 

We have the base shield now.  Or does that only work on alien cores?

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18 hours ago, CousinSal said:

Huge safe zones where you can't wage war. Pvp pushed to the edges for a a few niche plasma 99% of the player base doesn't care about. No player markets, and now NQ making showrooms and exchange because captains customs and all the countless others weren't good enough? This game has 0 npcs or real pve content and was marketed as player driven, yet every patch they restrict what a player can do in the universe.  I don't see this game lasting 6 months past "release".

finally some sane thoughts. I totally agree. 

I offered in another thread 

1. reduce safe zone only to zone around Alioth, moons and 2 initial planets and interplanetary space around them. 

2. remove all save zone around other planets

3. turn on planetary battle according space rules (Construct vs construct) 

4. Add powerful shields and base weapons to protect planet and orbit bases 

5. make T3-T5 production possible only in PvP zone. (for example in safe zone all strong power sources are blocked by some suppressor, including weapon and T3+ production)

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8 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

We have the base shield now.  Or does that only work on alien cores?

 

The base shield doesn't protect ships. So you can't dock and live on that base. 

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4 hours ago, CousinSal said:

 

The base shield doesn't protect ships. So you can't dock and live on that base. 

on a basis you can live without problems if you want. You can also ask friends, who then start a shuttle service or cab company.

But it would also be great if you couldn't attack ships in a hangar, but then had to attack the hangar first.

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I think it's funny that the majority of self-proclaimed "PVP" players all demand to get to be the pirate.  But none of them seem to be interested in playing the game in a way that creates PVP for other players.  Get out there and haul something in the PVP zone, build something in the PVP zone.  Do something in the PVP zone.

 

Everyone wants a shooting gallery.  But no one wants to be the duck.

 

Have you considered that's because shooting galleries are boring, and no one wants to be the duck?

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18 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

I think it's funny that the majority of self-proclaimed "PVP" players all demand to get to be the pirate.  But none of them seem to be interested in playing the game in a way that creates PVP for other players.  Get out there and haul something in the PVP zone, build something in the PVP zone.  Do something in the PVP zone.

 

Everyone wants a shooting gallery.  But no one wants to be the duck.

 

Have you considered that's because shooting galleries are boring, and no one wants to be the duck?

 

Yup.
Everyone wants to be the Tough Guy super invincible master Pirate that everyone else fears. Too bad victim volunteers are so hard to come by.

 

It's almost like how real power is gathered by those who use social engineering to create a victim pool of fearful and greedy that they can exploit.  If you want targets to shoot at, create a scenario where there is a tiny chance of great wealth and convince everyone that it can be theirs if they just **try hard enough**.

oh...
and don' t listen to those loosers who are suggesting that we would all be better off if we just help one another.

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4 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

I think it's funny that the majority of self-proclaimed "PVP" players all demand to get to be the pirate.  But none of them seem to be interested in playing the game in a way that creates PVP for other players.  Get out there and haul something in the PVP zone, build something in the PVP zone.  Do something in the PVP zone.

 

Everyone wants a shooting gallery.  But no one wants to be the duck.

 

Have you considered that's because shooting galleries are boring, and no one wants to be the duck?

First of all I don't play anymore. So my knowledge from the current state of the game is only based on the forums and dev-blogs.

However there is a thing which is called "emergent gameplay". Which for me means that player interaction "emerges" from the game mechanics.

I think the alien core stuff is an example of that. There is an actual reason to do something in the game which does result in PvP.

 

I really have a hard time understanding the "anti-PvP" crowd. But doing PvP for the sake of doing PvP at least for me feels kind of pointless. It is like getting into a staged fight like in Counter-Strike where you simply try to kill the opponent. And to be honest. That CAN be nice. But I think it is not the PvP people who want PvP in DU are looking for.

In a sandbox the devs should create "content drivers". That is something to actually fight for and not having to do a staged "lets fight for the sake of fighting" thing.

Alien cores look like a content driver to me. But there are not many of them in DU which is probably why people are actually asking for changes.

 

People are probably not asking "give us ways to fight", but "give us actual ingame reasons to fight".

Yes someone could do some ingame roleplay stuff. But to be honest, having to do roleplay stuff because the game does not create enough "content drivers" is not really "emergent gameplay" for me.

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39 minutes ago, PleiJades said:

First of all I don't play anymore. So my knowledge from the current state of the game is only based on the forums and dev-blogs.

However there is a thing which is called "emergent gameplay". Which for me means that player interaction "emerges" from the game mechanics.

I think the alien core stuff is an example of that. There is an actual reason to do something in the game which does result in PvP.

 

I really have a hard time understanding the "anti-PvP" crowd. But doing PvP for the sake of doing PvP at least for me feels kind of pointless. It is like getting into a staged fight like in Counter-Strike where you simply try to kill the opponent. And to be honest. That CAN be nice. But I think it is not the PvP people who want PvP in DU are looking for.

In a sandbox the devs should create "content drivers". That is something to actually fight for and not having to do a staged "lets fight for the sake of fighting" thing.

Alien cores look like a content driver to me. But there are not many of them in DU which is probably why people are actually asking for changes.

 

People are probably not asking "give us ways to fight", but "give us actual ingame reasons to fight".

Yes someone could do some ingame roleplay stuff. But to be honest, having to do roleplay stuff because the game does not create enough "content drivers" is not really "emergent gameplay" for me.



Yeah, it's just a bunch of embittered, self-absorbed gamers.

Their game dies because NQ was never able to put anything in place to allow player interactions.
 

Now they have to find culprits or villains to act out their pain.
 

They miss more than on the board the last representative of their species who will come to treat the PvP players of terrorist and [filtered] IRL. And I think we've covered the classic PvE argument against PvP.

 

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5 hours ago, PleiJades said:

First of all I don't play anymore. So my knowledge from the current state of the game is only based on the forums and dev-blogs.

However there is a thing which is called "emergent gameplay". Which for me means that player interaction "emerges" from the game mechanics.

I think the alien core stuff is an example of that. There is an actual reason to do something in the game which does result in PvP.

 

I really have a hard time understanding the "anti-PvP" crowd. But doing PvP for the sake of doing PvP at least for me feels kind of pointless. It is like getting into a staged fight like in Counter-Strike where you simply try to kill the opponent. And to be honest. That CAN be nice. But I think it is not the PvP people who want PvP in DU are looking for.

In a sandbox the devs should create "content drivers". That is something to actually fight for and not having to do a staged "lets fight for the sake of fighting" thing.

Alien cores look like a content driver to me. But there are not many of them in DU which is probably why people are actually asking for changes.

 

People are probably not asking "give us ways to fight", but "give us actual ingame reasons to fight".

Yes someone could do some ingame roleplay stuff. But to be honest, having to do roleplay stuff because the game does not create enough "content drivers" is not really "emergent gameplay" for me.

 

 

I haven't had a chance to mess with the Alien cores yet, so i can't really say how they are working either.  But they are at least an attempt at addressing that issue.  The Alien cores seem like they are kind of geared towards what you might call "endgame pvp" though.  They are definitely not something that is going to provide entertainment for anyone who is just getting into the game.

 

The game needs more of everything.  Removing the Safe Zone isn't more, it's less.

 

But about the term "anti-PvP" i honestly don't think that category of player even exists.  I have never heard anyone advocate for no PVP at all in the game, the way people constantly advocate for no Safe Zone at all.

 

Personally i don't have any interest in seeking out PVP.  But if there wasn't PVP in the game it wouldn't be half as interesting, so i want them to make it work.

 

From what i've seen there is a large group of people advocating for PVP being a central part of the game.  And they have all levels of interest in actually participating in PVP.

 

And then there is a very small and constantly rotating group of slightly confused people who would like the game to be something like Counter-Strike.  But they don't seem to understand that you can't force people to play Counter-Strike.  You can play Counter-Strike with other people who want to play Counter-Strike.  But you can't force me to play it.  

 

Removing the Safe Zone won't change that.

 

 

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16 hours ago, PleiJades said:

However there is a thing which is called "emergent gameplay". Which for me means that player interaction "emerges" from the game mechanics.

I think the alien core stuff is an example of that. There is an actual reason to do something in the game which does result in PvP.

 

Well....that's not really an example of emergent gameplay. That's an example of classic gameplay. Emergent gameplay is gameplay that arises from mechanics in ways the developer didn't explicitly implement. Alien cores aren't that...they work exactly as the devs intended. Racing in DU is an example of emergent gameplay, alien cores really aren't. 

 

16 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

They miss more than on the board the last representative of their species who will come to treat the PvP players of terrorist and [filtered] IRL. And I think we've covered the classic PvE argument against PvP.

 

This sentence...doesn't even make sense to me, but there's a love of false dichotomy when discussing valid criticisms of DU's implementation of PvP. The reality that PvP in DU is underdeveloped, buggy, not performant, and boring doesn't mean we loathe the concept of PvP.

 

That's the classic false dichotomy -- "if you don't agree that safe zones need to be abolished, you hate PvP and therefore the game will fail".

 

No, that's not it at all. 

 

Personally, I like PvP games -- but I play games designed for PvP where teamwork, skill, and strategy make all the difference. Games where your opponent has as much chance to win as you do. Games with mechanics designed around PvP and balance. DU isn't that. It isn't anything close to that. It's an obscure, niche implementation in an already-niche game that only will ever appeal to a highly niche group of players. 

 

You're allowed to believe ripping down safe zones will inexplicably and magically make this game popular...but calling everyone that doesn't share that view self-absorbed and "embittered" is exactly the sort of ad hominem that makes people think PvP players are childish. 

 

Anyone that's played DU's version of combat and believes "yeah, this is what will make the game popular!" is not seeing some obvious realities about the gamer market and the ability for combat in DU to support a paid monthly sub. 

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The problem for pvp in Dual Universe is at the very least the ratio of risk vs. reward is very out of balance and unpleasant for the player.

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