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need more PvP. turn it on everywhere for test


Catarix

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no one is playing. game is stagnating. wipe is ahead. the is nothing to lose for now. lets try more PvP everywhere (except Haven and Sanctuary). lets try planetary PvP according space rules. lets try in now because after release it will be impossible to do global changes. 

if this game is THE SPACE MMO ENTIRELY BUILT AND DRIVEN BY PLAYERS why I can't control my guns everywhere where I want to? if it's peaceful minecraft in space why here are weapon? 

Edited by Catarix
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Hahaha now that's a controversial topic. Its an interesting idea but I think that level of experimenting is probably better suited to the PTS. Even if a wipe is announced we risk further traumatizing players by having them physically watch the deletion process. With that said, a farewell event would be nice, maybe do another group photo or host a fireworks show.

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50 minutes ago, Catarix said:

no one is playing. game is stagnating. wipe is ahead. the is nothing to lose for now. lets try more PvP everywhere (except Haven and Sanctuary). lets try planetary PvP according space rules. lets try in now because after release it will be impossible to do global changes. 

if this game is THE SPACE MMO ENTIRELY BUILT AND DRIVEN BY PLAYERS why I can't control my guns everywhere where I want to? if it's peaceful minecraft in space why here are weapon? 

 

To answer your questions the Developers don't have experience, or at the very least those making the decisions. Some people believe the reason for lack of pvp around the game world and planets is because NQ knows the tech doesn't work, which was the heart of their sales pitch so for that to fail would be disastrous.  Which has some merit as mostly all of beta has been ways to curtail players abilities to do things in the game world.  

Edited by CousinSal
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4 hours ago, CousinSal said:

Some people believe the reason for lack of pvp around the game world and planets is because NQ knows the tech doesn't work, which was the heart of their sales pitch so for that to fail would be disastrous.

 

 

It might not be a bad thing if NQ were to take a step back and consider whether people will accept "lock and fire" mmo style combat.  Which has always been the plan for all combat in DU including Avatar vs Avatar.  There has always been a bit of cognitive dissonance in the community when it comes to accepting that.

 

Maybe it's not worth it to spend several years developing "lock and fire" AvA combat, if everyone is just going to hate it.

 

Construct vs Construct PVP still needs a lot of work, and especially some depth and specialization.  But it seems like the majority of the people complaining about it simply don't like the fact that it's lock and fire.

 

People who are drawn to the game simply because of the words PVP aren't interested in hearing about technical limitations, they just want realistic combat.  But i don't know what NQ is supposed to do about that.

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5 hours ago, Catarix said:

no one is playing. game is stagnating. wipe is ahead. the is nothing to lose for now. lets try more PvP everywhere (except Haven and Sanctuary). lets try planetary PvP according space rules. lets try in now because after release it will be impossible to do global changes. 

 

The game has barely enough players to hold Alien cores and a handful try to fight.. 

 

You want to ensure this game is dead before it really starts? Then this would certainly have a good chance of achieving that. There is plenty of space for those who want to engage in combat to do so. DU is not a "PVP above all else game", in fact quite the opposite.

 

If what you suggest would happen it would probably drive away the vast majority of remaining players as a handful of pewpew trigger happy ones will go around destroying whatever they find in their way without reason or recourse.

 

It's just amazing to me how some will keep trying to force their choice of gameplay, regardless of their choice being perfectly fine, on everyone else.

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2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

The game has barely enough players to hold Alien cores and a handful try to fight.. 

 

You want to ensure this game is dead before it really starts? Then this would certainly have a good chance of achieving that. There is plenty of space for those who want to engage in combat to do so. DU is not a "PVP above all else game", in fact quite the opposite.

 

If what you suggest would happen it would probably drive away the vast majority of remaining players as a handful of pewpew trigger happy ones will go around destroying whatever they find in their way without reason or recourse.

 

It's just amazing to me how some will keep trying to force their choice of gameplay, regardless of their choice being perfectly fine, on everyone else.

vast majority of remaining players? all my corp is out (20 ppl) in our ally corp everyone is out. no one is playing. Devs know it, I know it (coz I'm business analytic). It is ok if clients population is flat during developing of the Product, but it shouldn't decrease. It should really be small natural growth. Devs should change something in very very radical way. This game require a lot of new players otherwise there will be nothing to launch. 

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It would be very interesting to know how many of the previous players who tried DualUniverse because they were interested in the game really focused on which aspect of the game.
Is it the builders, Lua scripters, industrialists, miners, or the PvP players? Or even kind of a hybrid player who likes to mine ore and do industry or mine ore and do PvP. So what has been the main content of the players so far?
I often read that PvP players only want to shoot around and everything else is just a means to an end. But that is the case with any content. The PvP player must also collect quanta or ores to build or buy ships with which you have a chance to win in PvP at all. An industrialist has to do the same to build industrial plants and schematics. Even the one who builds ships and only sells them has to get his voxel stones and elements from somewhere. So in the end, many contents are connected, you can't just pick a small one. (This is only possible after investing a lot of time in the game).

From there, I think you don't need more PvP areas, because the PvP area is huge, maybe even too big to really meet. (I now assume that the outer planets and moons will eventually lose their safezone).
What PvP needs are players who are really interested in PvP, not players who need to be forced into PvP.

Accordingly, PvP should be made more interesting so that you can attract PvP players into the game and keep them permanently. (without driving PvE players out of the game).

In other games I liked to be a PvP player (WoW, Gw2, Archeage) but here in DualUniverse I prefer to be a builder, industrialist or an explorer.

On the topic itself, it would be fatal to release everything for destruction now when the developers aren't even sure what they really want to take away from players in the end and what should be protected. You should , if you really want to test PvP, make sure that you do not leave the time expenditure so brutally high - who wants to fly into a battle to attack or protect an alien core, please, if you first have to fly 1-3-5 hours AFK through space?

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You dont need to test this. I can already tell you what will happen.  First off, hardcore players will move all there assets to sanctuary. PVPers and trollers and pirates will spend all there time destroying everything that is left behind.  Anyone that did not move there stuff, and got destroyed would leave the game. The pvpers/trollers/pirates would have a great month or so of wiping all the planets. then they too would begin to leave the game as they ran out of targets.  Miners would leave the game as they can no longer automine on planets, they could get away with astroid mining while the pvpers are buisy wiping the planets. but as planets become ghost towns asteroids would then become camped too. So most miners would leave the game. This would result in industrialist leaving the game as they can no longer get the resources to make things. And finally builders would leave the game as noone is there to buy or look at the stuff they build. 

 

It would not die off completely as there would always be hardcore players in each field to play the game.  However the question becomes does NQ make enough money off these players to keep the servers running. Let alone develop/fix new/old content. 

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4 hours ago, RugesV said:

You dont need to test this. I can already tell you what will happen.  First off, hardcore players will move all there assets to sanctuary. PVPers and trollers and pirates will spend all there time destroying everything that is left behind.  Anyone that did not move there stuff, and got destroyed would leave the game. The pvpers/trollers/pirates would have a great month or so of wiping all the planets. then they too would begin to leave the game as they ran out of targets.  Miners would leave the game as they can no longer automine on planets, they could get away with astroid mining while the pvpers are buisy wiping the planets. but as planets become ghost towns asteroids would then become camped too. So most miners would leave the game. This would result in industrialist leaving the game as they can no longer get the resources to make things. And finally builders would leave the game as noone is there to buy or look at the stuff they build. 

 

It would not die off completely as there would always be hardcore players in each field to play the game.  However the question becomes does NQ make enough money off these players to keep the servers running. Let alone develop/fix new/old content. 

 

What you described Is more activity then they currently have so that's an upgrade. And to answer your last question, I would say the same thing about DUs current state.  They're aren't enough builders and people who calibrate automated mining to sustain this game, anyone who's played mmos can see that.

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On 6/11/2022 at 1:01 PM, Zarcata said:

It would be very interesting to know how many of the previous players who tried DualUniverse because they were interested in the game really focused on which aspect of the game.
Is it the builders, Lua scripters, industrialists, miners, or the PvP players? Or even kind of a hybrid player who likes to mine ore and do industry or mine ore and do PvP. So what has been the main content of the players so far?
I often read that PvP players only want to shoot around and everything else is just a means to an end. But that is the case with any content. The PvP player must also collect quanta or ores to build or buy ships with which you have a chance to win in PvP at all. An industrialist has to do the same to build industrial plants and schematics. Even the one who builds ships and only sells them has to get his voxel stones and elements from somewhere. So in the end, many contents are connected, you can't just pick a small one. (This is only possible after investing a lot of time in the game).

From there, I think you don't need more PvP areas, because the PvP area is huge, maybe even too big to really meet. (I now assume that the outer planets and moons will eventually lose their safezone).
What PvP needs are players who are really interested in PvP, not players who need to be forced into PvP.

Accordingly, PvP should be made more interesting so that you can attract PvP players into the game and keep them permanently. (without driving PvE players out of the game).

In other games I liked to be a PvP player (WoW, Gw2, Archeage) but here in DualUniverse I prefer to be a builder, industrialist or an explorer.

On the topic itself, it would be fatal to release everything for destruction now when the developers aren't even sure what they really want to take away from players in the end and what should be protected. You should , if you really want to test PvP, make sure that you do not leave the time expenditure so brutally high - who wants to fly into a battle to attack or protect an alien core, please, if you first have to fly 1-3-5 hours AFK through space?

 

PvP has nothing about total destruction. PvP is about changing priorities. look at EVE. Did everyone leave it because total PvP? 

You can't build MMO game around peaceful building. I can play Blender in this case. 

PvP has the following reasons

technical 

1. resources loss through PvP 

2. competition for resources spots 

gameplay 

1. risk and reward in game 

2. competition and interest 

to balance it we can have powerful base shields and weapons. 

there should be reason to be build in PvP space or planet - valuable resources or advantage for production. 

now I can't gather high tier ore because some guy took this spot 3 years ago and he should do nothing to protect it. 

in every game one should do something to protect his position. in wow you should start  from scratch every big addon. in EvE you should protect your stuff. 

but in DU one can just bought all resource spots and hold it for 3 years without any problems. 

how in this case devs plan to invite thousands new players? 

PS I think there are enough space for both builders and PvPers. but I think all resources and production lines higher than T2 should be in contested space. Builders can build beautiful cities in safe zones and PvPer (+PvP industries builders) can build highly protected bases in PvP space. there will be goods exchange and both parties will complement each other

 

Edited by Catarix
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7 minutes ago, kulkija said:

In EVE there is no planetary warfare or AVA. So why it should be in DU

in EvE you can fight everywhere. but I don't think we need AVA it will be technically very complicated task. as I said before all resources and production lines above T2 should be able to be contested. If planet is safe zone so T3-5 production should be only in PvP space as well as T3-5 ores.

BTW it can be explained by presence of energy emitter that suppress all high energy outputs: weapons, military engines and T3+ production lines

Edited by Catarix
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2 hours ago, Catarix said:

in every game one should do something to protect his position.

Of course, that's how many games have been structured so far...so it's time for something new. You don't have to include PvP in any game just to make the game "work". 
You don't have to give rewards or more valuable resources/ore to PvP players who are really interested in PvP just to get them interested in PvP. (So that would not be an interest in PvP, but in the rewards).
There can of course be a game without destruction, as well as without PvP. Whether that then pleases many or enough players to keep the game alive financially is another issue.

 

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Regardless of if you think the idea has merit or not...it isn't like NQ has some simple switch to "turn on PvP everywhere". Granted we don't know how NQ coded different mechanics for in-atmo and safe zones, but based on the way they run things...? I think it's safe to assume that features aren't so flexible. 

 

So IMO the point is moot because we all know NQ can't just "turn it on everywhere". 

 

Reality is they have to focus on bug fixes and performance to prepare for release -- even if they wanted to, they wouldn't have the time to develop this just to experiment. 

 

Also, they have been having performance problems for a while now and global PvP will only make that worse. If they wanted you to fight anywhere, they would have implemented proper space TW instead of alien cores. 

 

So in addition to NQ lacking the ability to do this with the limited bandwidth they have before release...they wouldn't want to do it anyway because more PvP means more server load and they are really not about that right now. I guess no one told them that a key part of MMOs is player interactions because they just see it as expense. 

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3 hours ago, Zarcata said:

Of course, that's how many games have been structured so far...so it's time for something new. You don't have to include PvP in any game just to make the game "work". 
You don't have to give rewards or more valuable resources/ore to PvP players who are really interested in PvP just to get them interested in PvP. (So that would not be an interest in PvP, but in the rewards).
There can of course be a game without destruction, as well as without PvP. Whether that then pleases many or enough players to keep the game alive financially is another issue.

 

I bought this game because it has slogan THE SPACE MMO ENTIRELY BUILT AND DRIVEN BY PLAYERS. So I expected to have full freedom. It is ok if devs completely delete weapons from the game. I will understand this position and leave. but now we have mechanics in "free" world that we can't use. 70% of technology and skills about war. I don't think devs have spent 6 years for creating subscription based building simulator for 1000 players. 

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24 minutes ago, Catarix said:

70% of technology and skills about war

DU has more than one main pillar and it support all game styles.

I think that having more than 70% of tech about war is way too much. It must be balanced.

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3 hours ago, Catarix said:

70% of technology and skills about war.

 How do you arrive at 70%, or was the figure thrown into the room at random?

 

3 hours ago, Catarix said:

I don't think devs have spent 6 years for creating subscription based building simulator for 1000 players. 


The 1,000 farmers would certainly be too few, but the 200 PvPers would also be too few.

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26 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

 How do you arrive at 70%, or was the figure thrown into the room at random?

 


The 1,000 farmers would certainly be too few, but the 200 PvPers would also be too few.

I think you understand that current situation of the game is terrible. My idea to give a feedback from MMO player with 20 years of experience with many many friends what we can do to increase player base. I love an idea of this game and I want it to develop. I respect other opinion and if Devs chose a way to peaceful building simulator it will be ok. but I think in this case this game will be nonprofitable. 

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13 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

Burning down a forest is also more activity than growing one.

 

eeeeh, set a forest on fire and it will burn for some days, all it takes is 1 match. But regrowing it naturally will take decades. even planting trees will take month to years depending on size

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On 6/10/2022 at 1:12 PM, Atmosph3rik said:

 

 

It might not be a bad thing if NQ were to take a step back and consider whether people will accept "lock and fire" mmo style combat.  Which has always been the plan for all combat in DU including Avatar vs Avatar.  There has always been a bit of cognitive dissonance in the community when it comes to accepting that.

 

Maybe it's not worth it to spend several years developing "lock and fire" AvA combat, if everyone is just going to hate it.

 

Construct vs Construct PVP still needs a lot of work, and especially some depth and specialization.  But it seems like the majority of the people complaining about it simply don't like the fact that it's lock and fire.

 

People who are drawn to the game simply because of the words PVP aren't interested in hearing about technical limitations, they just want realistic combat.  But i don't know what NQ is supposed to do about that.

 

I have to agree, as the current PvP is mostly about "up periscope, lock on target with long range weapons 50k+ KM out, and push the engage/fire button" - then you get to watch on your little scope things just explode over and over and over, waiting for pixels to update and show all the damage and destruction which you won't really see until you get up close to the ship, but it's mostly gutted out by then anyways. 

 

This was not the vision many of us old school alpha testers had, nor was it what was initially displayed in the original combat videos. The original combat videos made it look like ship battles were much closer range, and the damage was updated as things happened and you could see most of it with visual range. It wasn't this long range periscopic view like I am playing some submarine sim. 

 

I don't believe NQ knows what they are doing with the tech they have. I do not believe their game engine tech can handle all the features of what they wanted to do. I am not sure if they can fix the issues surrounding many problems we have now regarding PvP or even mining for that matter, as even to this day, you get 2-3 players trying to mine in the same area, you get all sorts of desync issues and suddenly you can't mine anymore for a long period of time. 

 

This all ties back into how their voxel engine works with combat, so they will most likely need to come up with a new system / new way to handle combat in a voxel heavy simulatory.

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So let's summarize.

 

DU is a building game with PvP. And the PvP part is bad, like really bad and consequentially not many people are doing it.

And the solution is to force the builder part of the game to join the PvP regardless of if they want to or not? Sounds like a great idea! For killing a game that is already dying that is.

 

Hint. Those that want to play the PvP part, are already doing so. And one would think the obvious way to increase PvP participation without chasing away players, would be to improve the PvP mechanics?

 

And here is some shocking news. Not all games has to be all about the pewpew. Are builders running around screaming "you must build. Or else!!". No they are not because that would be silly. So why is it that some of PvP players are doing exactly that..?

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8 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

So let's summarize.

 

DU is a building game with PvP. And the PvP part is bad, like really bad and consequentially not many people are doing it.

And the solution is to force the builder part of the game to join the PvP regardless of if they want to or not? Sounds like a great idea! For killing a game that is already dying that is.

 

Hint. Those that want to play the PvP part, are already doing so. And one would think the obvious way to increase PvP participation without chasing away players, would be to improve the PvP mechanics?

 

And here is some shocking news. Not all games has to be all about the pewpew. Are builders running around screaming "you must build. Or else!!". No they are not because that would be silly. So why is it that some of PvP players are doing exactly that..?

it is not about forcing builders to PvP. It is about equality. 

builders have all planets and almost all resources. there is simply no reason to PvP. 

I just ask to give us (PvPer) reason and resources. for example couple of planets with unique resources will be enough. or PvP server. or weapon production only in PvP space. 

something

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1 hour ago, Catarix said:

It is about equality. 

builders have all planets and almost all resources.

PvP:ers have the same access to planets that builders do, and you now have the space core with a large amount of T5 ore as well as the plasma. I don't see builders having more than PvPers.

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