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SHEDDING LIGHT ON A NOVAQUARK INTERNAL DISCUSSION - discussion thread


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5 minutes ago, Thaeric said:

Full wipe minus blueprints and talent points.

What good is a blueprint if you can not afford the material to deploy it. Everyone keeps saying keep blueprints which I want but damn give me my building material or quanta back. What does a player do with a BP for a ship that cost 100+ Million to deploy. Why are we loosing everything just for the promise of a better future.  Again I ask what are you going to do to Sanctuary will NQ completely break its word. or just tweak it a little.

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If they wipe, they should also give credits to people that have paid subs up till this point.

 

I get why they want to wipe, but it's a bit scammy to say that you'll get to keep things you build during beta then change your mind later. 

 

This speaks to why they want to wipe, though -- because there's a strong psychological pull for players to join an MMO as early as possible and advance as quickly as possible. I don't get it, but it's a very real thing in this genre. 

 

Plenty of people paid for that already with beta...and wouldn't have paid if they knew progress would be lost.

 

Either way, it's been way too long without a decision. Make your choice and do it quickly -- that there's "debate internally" only makes me think there isn't strong leadership. 

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2 minutes ago, Tordan said:

I have no expectation of work product, in this or any other game. Nor is there any legal right to it,

 

True and in fact , NQ has rerserved he right to perform a wipe anytime anyway and anyone playing has agreed to the T&C stating as much.

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If you do a full wipe. Then you had damn well better transfer over any and all skillpoints. If not, i'd like my money back that you've happily been taking this past year.

 

There is no reality in which i would've started playing this game in the first place other than the stated fact at the time "no more wipes".

 

On the point of transferring over stuff. If you stay with this idiotic weigth change that you've implemented on the PTS, there is really no reason what so ever to transfer over blueprints, since all the ships are completely screwed anyway. Everything needs to be redesigned from scratch.

 

I do however want a way to boost my earnings in order to get back what is then taken.

 

Also, the ONLY way i can support a wipe, is that you remove the schematics so everyone can get into production again without having to grind for weeks at a time in order to make enough money to start production of high end stuff.

 

Those are my thoughts on this.

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3 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

Plenty of people paid for that already with beta...and wouldn't have paid if they knew progress would be lost.

Exactly if you had told me months ago the possibility of a FULL WIPE was REAL, I would have stayed in EVE or somewhere else as paying to have my time, effort and lost of progression would kill the deal for me.

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Please dont take the talent points. I agree that this is the reason for the paid subscription. I dont mind a wipe on everything else, and in talks with my org have even gotten a little excited at the prospect (and would thank you for tearing down some of the old constructs and that would have taken hours) but the talent points are ALWAYS the breaking point for me. We should absolutely keep those. 

 

What has been most annoying about the last month with the game is absolutely the uncertainty. Take the feed back set a date where you will have the final conclusion.... GIVE US THAT DATE.... and we will wait to hear but not knowing is becoming more frustrating every time another post about this comes up. 

 

Also please clarify on "removing schematics" because it sound like you mean doing away with the schematic mechanic entirely but I think you meant removing existing schematics that players have already purchased... Definitely want some clarification on that

Edited by spacecat
correct my englishing
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  • As you, our current experienced players, will have quite an advantage compared to the new players on many levels (game knowledge, talent points, wealth, constructs already owned), there's a need to make things a bit more balanced to give a fighting chance to the wave of new players that will join the Community later. You make ZERO sense in this. There is always gonna be someone with a bigger advantage than the one starting his first day. There is simply no way to balance this, except 1. For every 10 new person that starts to play you need to wipe. 

  • We also want to give all the players (new players as much as a big part of the early backers who have waited for the game to be in a fairly polished state) to have the opportunity of the right start. Okay so, now everyone who has been active and giving you feedback is worth nothing (Zero), now it is about the backers who did want to spend their money on your game, but did not want to play it and give feedback, other than "i don't want to play it now, i will wait until the game will be in a fairly polished state. ? I mean holy shit.

It sounds to me like the people that do matter are the ones who backed Dual Universe but choosed to not play it, are the ones worth listening to.

And the people who did also back it, and choosed to play it and give feedback get's the BIG [filtered] you, well that is how i feel anyway. 
Do what you want NQ, it is out of my control anyway. I will still play though, even if it means starting from zero. Just think the stuff above in white, is pretty dumb, becaue there is not much logic in it.

 

Regards Squareflares

 

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6 minutes ago, FuriousPuppy said:

Wild idea, make the universe explode, and open a portal for 3 days and let us make ships and travel to the new universe in whatever we can escape with

I would still be pissed

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Let's preface this: I'm a scripter, I own minimal assets in the game, and my main enjoyment comes from scripting. The wipe has a very small affect on me, but that won't change my opinion on how terribly reasoned it is here and terribly unnecessary. 

Kurock's post says it all. They were so, so clearly biased in that post, it's like they already made their decision, and if our response is lukewarm, it will go through.

They ignore major, major points on the pros for the no wipe and partial wipe, and they put the full wipe with the most pros, but they all say the same thing: Simpler. 
Based on how they did the other pros and cons, all they should have said was:
 

Pros:

  • Simpler for us to do


Schematics are what caused so many people to leave, and they have left. Your comment on schematics probably revolved around the idea that removing them would somehow bring those people back. Newsflash, it won't. They have moved on to other games. Personally, I don't own a single subscription game where I would return to subscribing after so much time has passed. BS you say about a wipe is somehow required for removing schematics. They're just an item.
Complete BS that you say you can't revamp planets.
Even greater BS you say you can't rebalance the economy... do you even look at your in game economy? One update and 10,000 m^3 of honeycomb goes from 100 million to 10 million. That is where it should be. The economy is perfectly, perfectly fine.

As Kurock said, leveling the playing field is a temporary concept that will disappear quickly. It's an MMO. You think someone who plays the weekends or once a month will somehow be on the same level as someone who plays several hours a day, every day, who knows the game already? Don't be delusional, please.

DU is not like a game where wiping should happen. You've already implemented plenty, and many will say too many updates that make it so wiping is completely unnecessary. HQ tiles, tile tax and construct abandonment over time, just to name the ones that come to mind.. Those are systems that work.
DU lives off player content, which is essentially what you're advocating to remove with a wipe. It's like saying: I let you build up my limbs over the last two years so I can crawl, and now walk. Now, I will chop them off for you so you can rebuild them better this time.
Your post is not an unbiased opinion on pros and cons. Fix it. It is misleading. Some people who read it will not think critically about what you just wrote. Who the hell thinks no wipe will only satisfy "some" long term builders and traders... are you... actually dumb? A significant majority is a better word there. You wanna know something? Your wishy-washy response mostly advocating for a wipe is why some people don't want to invest time into this. And it is because you even brought up a wipe. You sour the waters and poison the air with having the idea about, even more so by your extremely biased post. 

You wanna see what I mean by a biased pro/con? Here's a great example:

 

Quote

 

Update my Lua Library to use Vec3 instead of ordinary variables.

For

Pros:

  • Reduce coding size
  • Easier to read
  • More user approachable
  • Improve consistency
  • Looks better

Cons:

  • Less performance

Against

Pros:

  • Reduce coding size

Cons:

  • Massively less performance.
  • Quicker CPU overload.
  • Unnecessary, no one will read the backend anyway.
  • Forces users to use vec3's instead of arrays

Neutral

Pros:

  • Reduce coding size
  • Improved maintainability (Easier to read for others and standardized library)
  • Simpler to use

Cons:

  • 30% to 60% more CPU operations, thus much easier to hit CPU overload.
  • Reliant on Vec3's implementation (Bugs or issues with Vec3 library cannot be accounted for)
    This is unlikely, but still a possibility.
  • Errors in the external library are more difficult to diagnose.

 

As you can see, depending on where you cut the cake, you can say a lot and steer the narrative, bloating reasons and diminishing others. 

This is, essentially what NQ have done with their entire post.

This is all I have to say in this, post, I've spent enough time writing out the obvious. Kurock said it in a neater package, but felt I should elaborate.

 

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Ehhhh NQ ... A true study case of "What a video game company should not do".

All the reasons given for a wipe are valid.
But when you advertise for "no wipe are planned unless something goes terribly wrong" and then just do a wipe to please new players. What do you expect ?

Personnally I hate the idea of a wipe, not because I have to rebuild. But because all the BP I sold will be kept by players.
So the economy is wiped yes. But for me the market saturation stay.
Ok, I can deal with it. I just have to make new builds. I'm pissed off but I can live with this idea.

But no. You have lost something more important with this wipe NQ. Player's trust.
I don't trust you anymore. I consider everything you say as lies. Every, single, word.
In that context, I don't want to play the game.
What will be your next move ? Removing the safe zone ? Doing a wipe AFTER the release ? Yep, all of this can happen now.

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I would suggest for almost full wipe:

 

Must:

Schematics

The schematics are here to stay or a similar mechanic needs to be in place to keep progress in check. They were crazy expensive and it should be like that. Without them you go from start to end game 1 - 2 weeks time. In that case it has no use to wipe otherwise the wipe will be an annoyance and no use at all. 

 

Bps:
Keep the BPs so people can rebuild their crafts again.

 

Mission randomization:
Mission randomization can be the ultimate solution to keep the it from being abused and keeping it dynamic to see the rest of the galaxy aswell instead of several places. This will also make it less predictable where the missions runners are going and coming from. Only refreshable every 24h

 

Also I would like to see a clear vision on planetary warfare so people can choose where they are going to live and if that would be subjective to a loss in the future.

 

Nice things to have as a beta player:

5 - 10 % talents points tranfser:

A bit of talent points tranfer would be a nice thing for the existing players. With this amount it would be only beneficial at the start and this will diminish to almost nothing in a year time. So the beta player wont be totally empty handed by being a tester.

 

Extra starting money could be a thing, but it should be big enough to provide a bit of extra funds to get it going, but it shouldnt be too big to give a huge advantage. So if that would happen max 50k - 100k of T1 worth of ore should be the bonus. Otherwise leave us peasants struggling to get out of the dirt.

 

I enjoyed the few days of the early game at the start of beta and I would enjoy it more if the systems now in place were there. Giving the game a better pace with the schematics and the ore extraction rates. With this the game / economy will be growing more organic.

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Hey another thing to consider. We veteran player regularly lift up newer player by giving them quanta, ships, territory and resources. When u take all that away we won't give two shits about the pricks that cost us all our hard earned stuff and will hoard the resources we would have freely given them to help them start the game

 

 

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Thanks NQ for the update and the insight into your thought process. If you do a full wipe and rip the band aid if I wouldn't mind. I've been around since pre alpha and I think given you are about to have a full release of the game a bunch of new people will expect a wipe. I understand you never said "their won't ever be a wipe" and people feel they heard something different. 

 

I know people have been asking for some information on the wipe and even though you haven't reached a deciding this part gives me comfort in knowing you're working through it. If we were able to keep BP's that might help people a bit,  but I think keeping schematics would be the best option as they do help to restrict people from building mega factories all over the place. Keep schematics and regular BP's and if people want to remove elements of their BP's so they only have to worry about restoring the voxels that should make it easier for them to rebuild that part. Good luck and godspeed with all the trolls of the world. 👍

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3 minutes ago, FuriousPuppy said:

DU's playerbase is currently below 1k players per day, so low that most population sites wont record it anymore. They have no choice but to try and get new players otherwise this game will die completely.    -I don't know the stats but I definitely want to get more players in here as well... but do you honestly feel like the game is ready for full release? It could as easily kill them game as bring more players in

Also the need to end the beta key accounts and start subs on most players running around with 5-15 accounts to balance things first.    -I agree they need to end the free beta accounts and I will gladly switch the one alt I have that isn't already into a paid account and I know others who would do the same, when the game is ready.



 

 

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A wipe will not make the game significantly more appealing to new players. A wipe will not get rid of bots and exploiters mass-producing resources to skew the economy. A wipe will not accomplish any of what you hope for; not in any meaningful way.

 

I would be willing to accept a wipe, start over and continue playing DU if I honestly believed it was for the best. But right now, there's really very little to gain from a wipe, and a lot to lose.

Edited by FoolsFolly
minor edit
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29 minutes ago, Watanka said:

Personnally I hate the idea of a wipe, not because I have to rebuild. But because all the BP I sold will be kept by players.

 

This is another great point. If  you're going to take away the profit from selling the blueprint, also take away the blueprint that was purchased. 

 

👉 Allow us only to retain the core blueprints👈

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I found the Pros vs. Cons extremely slated towards one side. I can see which way the wind is blowing (wipe).

 

Instead of focusing on the positives of the current player base, there's only a focus on the negative side. If people need to spend weeks picking up ore to build even a basic functioning ship, how many would be able (or willing) to help newbies in a significant way? Not to mention how many veterans to offer such help would have left with the full wipe...

 

I feel incredibly used by NQ, I would say false advertising during beta launch is a problem. Sure there was a caveat that said "We'll avoid it, unless we have no choice.", but I'm missing the 'no choice' part in this conversation. You've been asking us for subscriptions these past year and a half with the promise of a persistent universe, over the last year many, many pieces of that persistence promise have already been destroyed.

 

With the release of 0.23 I've spent most of my time in DU adjusting to all the changes NQ has been making: Schematics, mining changes, scanning, terrain reset, core limits, Aphelia parking, etc, etc, etc. Instead of more options, we got limits upon limits upon limits. This has made achieving self set long term goals almost impossible, as NQ kept giving us more busywork instead of just facilitating the sandbox. Changes that should have been made in Alpha, were constantly been made in paid Beta.

 

NQ, no matter how you go, you will piss people off. The question will be how the pissed people will respond and how that will look to the rest of the world and potential new customers... A trustworthy company that keeps it's promises or an exploitative company that goes back on it's promises whenever it suits them...

 

If NQ was more clear at the start of beta and making wipe a very real possibility, instead of a remote one, and misusing their (streaming)partners to push that message (and sell subscriptions). I, and many with me, would never have started paying for a DU subscription, especially not multiple subscriptions. Without that you would never had the population bump DU got from both subscribers and streamers. I don't know about NQ financials and how much the subscription fees kept NQ afloat, but it certainly helped investors keep pumping money into the company...

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28 minutes ago, Pcfreak9 said:

IMust:

Schematics

The schematics are here to stay or a similar mechanic needs to be in place to keep progress in check. They were crazy expensive and it should be like that. Without them you go from start to end game 1 - 2 weeks time. In that case it has no use to wipe otherwise the wipe will be an annoyance and no use at all. 

 

 

Would players reaching endgame in a matter of weeks really be a bad thing?

A game has to be balanced between accessible gameplay, and impactful gameplay. You can have ships that take years to build, and make people feel pride when they are used and disappointment when they are lost. Or you can have ships that take minutes to build, so people can carelessly throw themselves into combat, destroy and get destroyed, enjoying the activity but not feeling the consequences of their actions.

 

Personally, I feel that leaning towards accessibility would attract a much larger audience, and create a more active and enjoyable world. But I'm just speaking from my gut here; I haven't actually polled the masses or anything.

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4 minutes ago, StoneSpoons said:

 

This is another great point. If  you're going to take away the profit from selling the blueprint, also take away the blueprint that was purchased. 

 

👉 Allow us only to retain the core blueprints👈

If NQ is destroying all the work except core blueprints, wouldn't the people that spent their time making those core blueprint have a huge advantage over the rest? I'm not in favor of a wipe at all. But if you want to be consistent and wipe the wealth from players, that includes core blueprints. Time is quanta, and ready built objects that normally take time to build are worth a significant amount of quanta. So the person that spend a 100 hours mining gets shafted by loosing everything, the person that spend 100 hours building and making BPOs isn't? How is that fair?

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