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SHEDDING LIGHT ON A NOVAQUARK INTERNAL DISCUSSION - discussion thread


NQ-Wanderer

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7 minutes ago, space_man said:

The salvage I have would be lost. 

Maybe there is a communication breakdown going on.

 

Would someone else get your salvage? Someone would still have my work.

 

Would you be able to get salvage again with the same effort? I would not be able to do that because of the first question.

 

Anyways, I was just sharing my feedback, from my point of view. I am done trying to explain it to you, since the feedback I gave was not meant for you, but the devs.

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12 minutes ago, Metallical said:

It was not being able to it the way I did.

Sure you can, you can sell it to all those new player NQ is talking about that will be attracted to DU when they wipe...

 

Hmm... Yeah... Maybe you are screwed! 😉

Edited by Cergorach
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I dont mind about an economic wipe but as Im paying several accounts since several months (years) Im not sure I will be able to forget NQ if all my talents are wiped out. Keep in mind there's hundreds of players who don't pay their accounts due to beta keys and its totally a deal breaker for those who paying religiously to bring a cashflow to the company. 

 

Beta testers are usually paid for testing games, not the opposite.

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21 minutes ago, LosNopales said:

Unfortunately the wipe will not fix the economy.  Too much production,  not enough destruction.  You need to have PVE ships take real damage when they crash.  All your doing right now is pushing the problem forward and just pissing off people that have spent a lot of effort based on the No Wipe unless absolutely necessary.

 

I feel somewhat the opposite. There is not enough destruction fueling demand for production because people are exceedingly cautious with their ships; and they are cautious because replacing their ships would be too expensive, due to not enough production. If anything, we need more production flooding the market with cheap ship parts so that people can start to think of their ships as expendable.

 

...also, more incentive to participate in PvP. People should get out more than they put in, so that they have money to spend on ship parts to replace those they are losing.

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2 hours ago, BlindingBright said:

Problem: Built up universe with a single solar system that is fairly built out without fresh real-estate for new players on release. Filled by players with built up resources.

Problem: Kickstarter promise of multiple solar systems.

Solution: Single shard universe with two+ solar systems that require a gate to travel between (or takes weeks/months of real world travel time) allowing for a "fresh" player experince. We were promised a universe, not a solar system. 


Don't do us dirty like this NQ.

 

 

NQ can sort out the details of how but this approach that I have advocated for before seems to address most of the points of view on both sides of this matter. Make the gate take 180 days. This gives new player 6 months or more all by themselves. 

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2 hours ago, Cergorach said:

So the person that spend a 100 hours mining gets shafted by loosing everything, the person that spend 100 hours building and making BPOs isn't? How is that fair?

 

You make a good point.  My only thought on this is that mining isn't a creative pursuit. Players who spend 100 hours, or 1000 hours in a few amazing cases, are valuable to the community in a unique way that we wouldn't want to lose.  Mining on the other hand is now almost entirely automated compared to how it was when we were all scooping a mega for hours on end. Literally anyone can be a miner - relatively few can build the beautiful ships that come from the creative few.  For the record, I'm not one of those gifted few. ;)

 

I understand your argument completely and I don't disagree.  In the end... none of what's about to happen is fair.  I just want to lose as few good players as possible.

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What cursed day it was, the day I found out about DU and got me stuck in a never ending cycles of wipes, isn't it? 

 

After Alpha wipe there was a huge ship from the Prisoner PvP event I was never able to get so much gold to rebuild. When I was finnally able to do so that ship was no more relevant and the realization that builds getting prettier each day and old stuff does not age well made me not wanting it back. 

 

Will it happen again with many of my ships that I wont be able to rebuild them due me not capable to put up the same effort I did in Beta? I am talking about all these nights I skipped sleep for getting my plans to work in DU. Also all that IRL stuff I missed for putting hours in DU was for nothing then? Just like this you consider to delete all?

 

Putting just one pro for no wipe means you are committed to do a wipe again. If that's the case the only activity left for me to do in DU is save Blueprints until that abomination of a wipe is completed.

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Like I said, any wipe and I am gone.  In fact, now I don't even want to login and keep playing, this is so defeating!  I spent so much time on this game and this is just absolutely ridiculous that every other month some massive change wipes out the player base.  I'm the last full active player in my org of 40 because of these changes.  This will be it for me.

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If you do wipe the server we need wear and tear/decay for industry and elements. BP core alignment/snap in and maybe just indicate the direction of the front of the core, be able to align dynamic and space cores as well.  Aphelia orders that players fill at a market and players run those missions to feed each markets on outer planets from alioth. NQ needs to take a higher stance/corrective action on exploits so we don’t end up in the same place. I’m happy to see a wipe but I would also like to keep my core bp or purchased bp that I already deployed. I would also like to see a better notification Managment system. The current one is hard to manage or review construct repo, mining unit notification etc. Talent refund would be nice or quanta payout based on the # of points gained. I hope NQ mixes things up we get a different system to start in with different planets etc and work our way out. Construct menu needs to have a filter option. The sooner you wipe the better please don’t let us hanging for months on end on this one. I hope to see you all on the other side ; )

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23 minutes ago, Niemand said:

never listen to grey haired boomer whales with 5-10 accounts. those fools are easy to spot. just look here they all cry because they gonna lose all their stuff and their exploited money. I LOVE THEIR TEARS. CRY MORE PLEASE  best low iq quote from these fools:

"i payed for no wipe promise"

I have 4 accounts, have no hair and am from Gen X, do I count? Let's say I spent 1500 hrs playing with four accounts vs. your 1500 hrs playing with your single account. How does that make my or your stuff anymore or less valuable to each of us? I don't give a flying X about someone with many, many billions (like many that are still playing). I don't care that I have more stuff then you, neither should you!

 

My take is, never base your decisions on what others say. Listen to others and see if their point of view changes your point of view, we don't know everything, we can still learn from others. But certainly not from everyone, truly learning from others is often rare... /fortune cookie

 

Exploiting a bug is bad, exploiting a game mechanic is good. If the game mechanic was badly designed, that is not our problem, that is NQs fault. I'm also flabbergasted how some exploits of bugs haven't been manually fixed by NQ. Someone else gave a good example how CCP fixed some exploits with EVE Online, but they are certainly not unique in that.

Edited by Cergorach
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9 minutes ago, Walter said:

Putting just one pro for no wipe means you are committed to do a wipe again. If that's the case the only activity left for me to do in DU is save Blueprints until that abomination of a wipe is completed.

So NQ should I spend the new few weeks selling everything I can to gain as much quanta as I can and then go on a MAD MAN Blueprint buying spree, seems like the only way to perverse my return on investment at the moment is to create, build and buy as many blueprints as possible and just store them in a XLE Container on Sanctuary and wait for the massive wave of NEW PLAYERS to come.

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11 minutes ago, StoneSpoons said:

 

You make a good point.  My only thought on this is that mining isn't a creative pursuit. Players who spend 100 hours, or 1000 hours in a few amazing cases, are valuable to the community in a unique way that we wouldn't want to lose.  Mining on the other hand is now almost entirely automated compared to how it was when we were all scooping a mega for hours on end. Literally anyone can be a miner - relatively few can build the beautiful ships that come from the creative few.  For the record, I'm not one of those gifted few. ;)

So they are already gifted with talent and you want to further give them advantages? If they are gifted instead of lucky, they can reproduce or improve on their creative works again, by spending time again. They will be rewarded again, just like the rest of us...

 

Now a fun mindbender... What about the folks selling LUA code like the space elevators, autopilots, etc. That is code that can be exported and imported again... They loose a lot less (besides having to recode some stuff for the new release). How is that fair...

 

Conclusion: There is no fair!

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5 minutes ago, atldrab said:

Like I said, any wipe and I am gone.  In fact, now I don't even want to login and keep playing, this is so defeating! 

I feel your pain, share your heartache, NQ what do we do now. What do we do with this BS you just dropped on us. Defiantly not building anything lol so sell anything or .....well do anything. Its like your girlfriend saying "I am Thinking about Breaking Up" and then turns around and saying Honey where we going for dinner tonight.

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4 minutes ago, MelTuc said:

So NQ should I spend the new few weeks selling everything I can to gain as much quanta as I can and then go on a MAD MAN Blueprint buying spree, seems like the only way to perverse my return on investment at the moment is to create, build and buy as many blueprints as possible and just store them in a XLE Container on Sanctuary and wait for the massive wave of NEW PLAYERS to come.

Keep the BP in your Nanopack just saying 

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6 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

Conclusion: There is no fair!

 

100% Nothing in this life is fair. Unless there's a legit technical reason to start fresh (there isn't or they would just say so) there's no good/fair/logical/reasonable excuse for any kind of wipe.

 

BTW, I'm also a Gen X'r with 4 accounts. I say we make our own game, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the game - and the blackjack!

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With the terrain wipe you put a lot of effort in to keep underground bases like mine, with a wipe can I still keep my underground base or do I have to dig it out again if I have a BP to replace it?

 

Wiping talent points seems like a bad idea, I am a miner and an industrialist so a economy wipe would hit me pretty hard. If my talent points from the last couple of years are removed as well I might just lose my will to play :S

 

I understand that you need to remove the bugs and the riches gotten trough bugs. But do they really brake the game in its current state?

 

I don;'t think a wipe is the best thing for new players, now they come into a game and have the space to experiment. If everyone has to start over the starting zone would be swamped in the first week(s) with existing players and make it unplayable for new players. Now you have the player base nicely spread across the system.

 

 A full wipe feels wrong since it feels like punishing players like myself who have spend countless hours logging in to calibrate my miners. I waited until beta to start playing because there would be no wipe anymore and my efforts would actually account for something.

The same reason why I backed Star Citizen but are still not playing it, there might still be a wipe and all would be for notthing.

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7 hours ago, Belorion said:

Why do they want to remove the schematics again? That is one of the only reasons why we got trading in this game <.<


I don’t see how removing them requires a wipe at all. Remove them and make industry work as it did before - need a wipe for that? No.

 

They had all this time to correct it, if they feel schematics were a mistake and wanted the players who quit over them back. That part just sounds like a weak excuse.

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2 minutes ago, FuriousPuppy said:

what if I told you that a 3d map of the server was a really really hard thing for them to make happen, and basically anything past restoring a construct is lots of work

I would tell you: horrible design! And no future for the game as it can't scale if every change is 'lots of work'...

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Right... Where to start with this train wreck...

4 hours ago, NQ-Wanderer said:
  • A reset would be an opportunity to remove things that have been deemed very unpopular by the already existing community, such as the schematics. The only way to remove them in a clean way without causing too many disturbances in the economy is clearly when the in-game economy has been just reset.

Talk about curing a head-cold with decapitation... People didn't like schematics when they were released because you just suddenly stuffed them in to the game after people had already established themselves and effectively kicked a lot of dedicated factory players just about back to square one with the only way to continue their chosen style being "go buy something only aphelia sells".

 

Advanced warning that you were going to do that would have taken some of the edge off, adding the schematics but not requiring them for a few months would have helped take the edge off, adding a research system that lets people make the schematics themselves (even if spending the same amount of wealth via material-costs) would still make them annoy people less...

 

Schematics were added in to cut down on the server and connection loading produced by everyone having their own private mega-factory. If you want to cut out the schematics for all the t1 stuff (since we already make that in our nano-packs) then go for it, but if you drop them all without a system to replace it then you'll be regretting it again later. 

 

4 hours ago, NQ-Wanderer said:
  • Many tests/adjustments during Beta have impacted the in-game economy, leading to have some players getting extremely rich way faster than intended, due to an intensive use of some features in their early stage, such as the mission system (and that's understandable, as the situation is part of a normal process in the development of a game). However, it's also common practice in the game development process to usually have some kind of reset when critical milestones are reached, and resetting the economy to have a healthy start once the game has been stabilized and the game features have become more balanced makes sense.

Its' called a roll-back. You keep a copy of how things are right before a patch, and if someone finds an exploit in short order then you get rid of it and re-load that un-abused copy with a patch to fix the exploit. People generally don't mind losing a few hours of play too much if you have a good reason such as fixing an exploit that would destroy the economy.

 

Or if you kept a log somewhere, you could just quickly close the server down for a bit while you went through it and deleted the the resources produced by the exploit. 

 

Or you could have gone after people for abusing the exploit and kicked them from the game.

 

Or you could do another partial-wallet-wipe like you did back near the start of beta (without any forewarning to ensure people don't just move assets around to avoid it).

 

5 hours ago, NQ-Wanderer said:
  • As you, our current experienced players, will have quite an advantage compared to the new players on many levels (game knowledge, talent points, wealth, constructs already owned), there's a need to make things a bit more balanced to give a fighting chance to the wave of new players that will join the Community later.

  • We also want to give all the players (new players as much as a big part of the early backers who have waited for the game to be in a fairly polished state) to have the opportunity of the right start.

This whole fighting chance for new players thing is absurd, and if we're being honest here repeating it is a bit insulting to the people that have thought that one through and explained it a dozen times now.


-Someone will always have more money than someone else.

-If you wipe the server clean then the returning players will still have more money than any new ones you somehow attract five minutes after the server opens just because they will know how to get it faster (you point this out in your post),

-The power-players will still have more money than the casuals because they will be putting more time in to it,

-The people running mission-alts or playing cooperatively will still have more money because this is an mmo, and conservation of ninjutsu must not apply,

-Everyone will still have a lot more than any brand-new player, because they will have had any time at all to get it while the new player will not.

 

The only thing this gives to new players (and only the competitive ones that don't think too hard about the existence of beta-players) is the sense that if they want to compete then they wont start far behind anyone else for that first week or two. For all the rest of the new players all you are really doing is clearing the universe of anyone that is willing to give them a head start with free stuff, pay them to run jobs or perform tasks, or inspire them with grand and epic constructs that show them "players can design and build this themselves".

 

5 hours ago, NQ-Wanderer said:

WE CONSIDERED SEVERAL ALTERNATIVES SO FAR TO REACH THESE GOALS:

 

- Doing no wipe at all.

Pros:

  • Satisfying for some of our long-time builders and traders

Cons:

  • Unsatisfying for players wanting to discover the game and start with a more polished version of the game.
  • Does not allow to remove Schematics properly.
  • Does not allow to revamp the old planets properly.
  • Does not allow the rebalancing of the economy properly.
  • Potentially keeping bugs related to very old Constructs.

You left out the pro of keeping people's trust, and if you don't wipe and just drop schematics you probably wont lose as many players as you will by wiping the universe clean. If you want to be really nice about it you could even make Aphelia willing to buy the schematics back, (and before someone complains about the exploiters getting money by selling schematics they picked up during the exploit-sale, please consider whether or not that would constitute a significant gain for an exploiter's wallet, and the possibility that she could buy them back at a reduced price for the happy middle-ground between refunding lawful factory-wizards and throwing a few more quanta at people that already have exploit-cash).

 

That said, I still don't think you should drop most schematics from the game, I don't want to have to pick my tile claims based on how many mega-factories other people have deployed close enough to lag my game out when I'm just trying to build, fly, or work my mining units.

 

5 hours ago, NQ-Wanderer said:

- Making a partial wipe where the economy would be wiped, but not the Constructs, which would keep all player-made creations intact, with also in mind to prevent some players from storing resources on said Constructs to circumvent the reset of the economy.

 

Pros:

  • Relatively satisfying for some of our long-time builders.

Cons:

  • Extremely complex to put in place properly without the known loopholes interfering (such as piling up Resources and Elements on existing Constructs before a wipe and removing them after to sell them).
  • Unknown loopholes could break the wanted healthy economic reset.
  • Does not allow to revamp the old planets properly.
  • Potentially keeping bugs related to very old Constructs.

You left out the pro of keeping people's trust, again.

You forgot the con of the loss of non-factory-players ability to use an established market to advance.

Also, you've done resets of planets before with things like magic prints and admin-construct excavation. so I must ask that you please refrain from inferring people now need to choose between keeping their stuff or having good looking planets.

 

This will annoy the market-players, and the factory players, and the ship-sellers, and the wipe-monkies because someone somewhere may still have more stuff than they do, and a lot of other players because they'd be losing some of their stuff. In short, this will probably annoy the most people, but you'll still be able to claim that you didn't negate the whole "beta is soft-release" claim made way back when beta was starting, and people will be willing to see it as a reasonable compromise.

 

As for old bugged constructs, try opening a thread and listing the specific bugs, I'm sure players would gladly offer input on potential fixes (could always add an "old" tag in the code of old constructs and prints that prevents operation/docking/BPO creation until all elements are moved with the move element tool or picked up with the deploy element tool).

 

Just be sure to not warn anyone if you decide this, otherwise people will just shift their assets around to try and avoid it, and don't forget to make sure people have something to keep their taxes paid and their fuel tanks full for a bit while they get the economy running again.

 

6 hours ago, NQ-Wanderer said:

- Having a “legacy” live server and a new live server, where only the blueprints made before the new server opening would be transferred to the new live server.

 

Pros:

  • Could prevent any wipe with this solution while managing issues the dev team is trying to solve.

Cons:

  • Opens a number of new issues server-side.
  • Would split the Community.

On one hand, if you simply didn't apply any new patches to the legacy server then most people would probably eventually migrate over to the new stuff on their own as you enticed them with cool new features (assuming you come up with said features).

 

On the other hand, such division of population would initially be potentially quite substantial, and would risk making the game seem "too empty", and you'd need to re-run procedural generation of ore distribution so that people don't just pull ore-coordinates from one server to be used in the other.

 

Of course you could probably take the 3rd option people have presented here where by the two eventually become linked as the previously promised extra solar-systems, but that would probably entail eventually allowing old resources in to the new system, at which point we'd be on the same track as having never wiped, so you'd probably be better off just not wiping if you did this so that old players could still help uplift new ones.

 

7 hours ago, NQ-Wanderer said:

- Having a full wipe (except blueprints) with solutions to make old time players able to rebuild their favorite Constructs quickly through various means.

 

(Here are a few examples of discussed ideas to reach this goal: for our veteran backers, starting pool of talents points and/or quanta, resource multiplier event right after the reset, etc.).

 

Pros:

  • Prevents loopholes for an economic reset compared to a partial wipe.
  • Most efficient, proper way to remove schematics.
  • Most efficient, proper way to handle a planet revamp.

Cons:

  • Some possibilities discussed could be seen as an unfair advantage.

I've already been over the schematic and planet points in this post, but until you make missions have a random start and end location for each and ever person each and every time they take them, I'm going to say this wont fix that particular "economic loophole". 

 

As far as cons go you forgot:

-Loss of the trust of a lot of people that believed NQ wasn't going to full wipe after beta-launch unless it was absolutely nessicarily for the integrity of the game, 

-Bad pr along the lines of NQ being willing to nuke the entire universe to make their job easier in dealing with a few exploiters and/or patch implementation, 

-Temporary loss of old players' ability to uplift or inspire new players,

-Loss of established-market use by non-factory players to advance in to doing what they want to do without waiting for factories,

-Temporary loss of established player's ability to identify/test mid/late-game loopholes and exploits in a time-frame that would still allow rollbacks or "targeted maintenance" to limit the damage they could cause.

 

 

 

So, what's it going to be NQ? The longer this debate goes on, the more people are just going to get frustrated at it all and question whether or not they should just go else-ware, and the worse DU will look for it. Time to make final call quickly and stick to it, you don't want the pr from all this fence-sitting on something as major as a universe wipe still hanging around when you get to full release.

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34 minutes ago, FuriousPuppy said:

what if I told you that a 3d map of the server was a really really hard thing for them to make happen, and basically anything past restoring a construct is lots of work


This has what to do with industry units and schematics, exactly?

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