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NQ: Time to answer the question - Will there be a wipe?


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9 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

Medium sized org with ~100 members will have 15Mill quanta starting fund ever 23h just from the 150K. Plenty enough to spearhead a mission/mining expedition to get the big quanta flowing in a couple of days.

 

Which leads to my point that a wipe will not fix the economy by itself.

100 members 15mil/day, two days before you complete your first DSAT. Meanwhile members are picking up ore for two days, maybe create some small ships that can do missions on Alioth itself... Some ships to pick up Schematics, maybe create a small space base, some F-upped space haulers with tons of Basic Space Engines S and Containers XS (no Hubs). It's a race to the asteroids, first swarm there will take it all (as the scan ship can just move along after dropping of the miners (backpack build storage on the spot). No one has any weapons, so pvp is just impossible, building it requires advanced ores. Then it's a race to the first weapons/warp, as the first ones that have weapons will control the pvp asteroids and possible the rest of pvp space... And it's back to the old game, who is the biggest and the fastest, also is the richest... Again...

 

IF you're in such a large org, you're spending all your time on boring org stuff, picking up ore for days, flying from A to B for days, mining for weeks, etc. And eventually your org has all the stuff and you get to play with toys... Against who exactly? Because the 'winner' won't suffer competition, so who is building pvp ships to play against? You're automining and manufacturing stuff, building ships, etc. Who exactly will buy that for any decent money? The 99 other corp mates?

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A full wipe would be too much, for all the reasons discussed above. There are a couple of issues that “no wipe” won’t address on its own though, and I think they can be addressed. So to add my suggestions to the pile-
better that the whale vs noob disparity is left as is; it will develop again anyway and some of these noobs will be captains of industry in the future. What does need to be addressed is the ore pool, and tile availability. Here’s my idea:

 

First - all those locked Inactive HQ tiles and any other inactive occupied tiles at launch are wiped, made available ONLY to new players for the first 6 months. - Including sanc tiles for unsubscribed accounts and betas that don’t re-up as paid accounts. 
 
Second  - dust the new player only tiles with a liberal share of new ore, because while I know there are good spots out there, I also know the best have been found and covered with huge mu farms. Hope the increased demand for elements  will balance with the new influx of ore.

 

maybe an exponential increase in lower tier consumption for new T5 elements will suck down the ore levels to compensate.  
 

a possible alternative: new sanc moon (or new markets in the open areas) with shuttles to Madis, Thades, and Alioth. 
 

i don’t think any amount of demanding answers is going to get us answers before NQ is ready, so maybe suggestions will help more than invective

Edited by Hecticus
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13 hours ago, CyberDay said:

 

Your missing the entire point. There is no content in this game without the players. Literally. Nothing. PvP? Nope, good luck starting that any time soon. All you can do is sit around MMB'ing skittles till you can afford a mining unit. Industry will take large orgs days to get back up and running with the free quanta + bot orders + missions (people will be on these before even the first warp drives are up), but the average new person post wipe? Good luck. Right now we have the backbone to help support new people to come into the game, there are free ships everywhere to get people started, some people give out t1/t2 MUs even. 

 

Everyone also keeps mentioning all these new players that would come in. Where are they coming from? There isn't a stash of new players somewhere waiting. The people who wanted to try/play the game have already. Calling something a launch might bring in a few new faces, but we are not going to see the normal MMO rush. With everything that is already out there about DU, most people will make the connection that the game has already launched in a since and really isn't new. 

 

This isn't a matter of people coming in and being behind. There is a upper limit a decent chunk of people have reached. With the current state of the game if a few groups of new players come in, it would take them a few weeks to reach that if they are playing decently. 

 

I really don't understand why a wipe is even on the table. Its not the 99.9%s fault that NQ didn't take a firmer stance on the 0.1% exploiting the game with duplications and "cheap" Schems among other things. Had they actually had enough backbone to actually AT THE VERY LEAST remove the items and refund the schematics there wouldn't even be this conversation. Its already been mentioned that a decent chunk of the people who currently make the content in the game wont be coming back if there is a wipe, and the small trickle of people they will see for the "release" who probably wont stay will not make up for that.

the point instead is just that. It is presented as a sandbox where players will shape new civilizations on exoplanets, except for what is strictly necessary to allow for, albeit slow, progress there will be nothing. the game is launched with this perspective, then you introduce yourself and discover that everything already exists, and everything has already been taken and occupied .... what interests could a new player have? in a system, which we all agree, designed for linear rather than cyclical growth. On which, I believe they will have to make serious changes. Given this, I believe that we also agree that a game is played because it is liked and not for imaginative reasons, specifically in the current game it does not offer much, each of us must find a space and his own idea of how to play it, the real innovative features are LUA and Voxel that other games do not have, the rest is highly questionable ... in any case if players with years of gaming behind them leave only because, as has always been the rule, there will be a wipe or not, perhaps the reason lies in the fact that for them the time of this game is exhausted and they are looking for yet another reason to abandon it as now what they could do they did the rest is routine. For the same reasons listed above, whoever tells you that new players then want to be helped in the ways so far explained by the quual veterans: give ships, objects, money etc. in this way I believe that more than helping, at least 70% of interest in the game itself is taken away. I'm a new player, the ships, blueprints, and much more do they give me what remains to do? PvP? But on one thing I fully agree it is necessary that they give an answer as soon as possible to the community on the subject.

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The whole concept of DU + subscriptions makes it so that a wipe must be avoided at all cost, and only used as a last resort when everything else has failed. It is that simple, really it is.

 

I.e. The only real asset in this game that keeps players logging in, is the constructs. Be it PvP ships or large base constructs, those constructs are the only thing that truly represent value to the players.

 

And I have yet to hear a single reasonable argument for a wipe, that would not be better addressed by a more gentle "soft wipe" intervention from NQ. Like they already did with the landscape reset needed to change the voxel planet coordinate system.

 

And why did they spend all that time and effort trying to minimize player impact including using NQ resources to help dig out constructs, if there is a full wipe planned for the near future?

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7 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

 

And I have yet to hear a single reasonable argument for a wipe, that would not be better addressed by a more gentle "soft wipe" intervention from NQ. Like they already did with the landscape reset needed to change the voxel planet coordinate system.

 


As good as the 'Andrex wipe' sounds when you say it quickly, any sort of partial wipe would just end up being gamed by rich players.  Leaving constructs behind?  Lets put 50x rare XL engines and 3 warp beacons on each one!  There are already genuine ships which have 30+ XL space engines on them so it won't be as easy as you might think to spot this if it's done intelligently, particularly for a game which can't spot the difference between Janko and elements which are just next to each other.  What about 'everything but talents'?  The people with talents will get up and running so much faster than everyone else and it will take new players many months to catch up.  Wipe elements and leave voxel?  That sucks if you're voxel planet and everyone fills their constructs with huge chunks of voxel to sell post-wipe.

I keep trying to think of some sort of partial wipe which would actually work, but they all have their problems.  IMO the choice is between no wipe and a full wipe like we had at the end of alpha, with everything including talent points reset.  Anything else has problems which defeat the object of the wipe by giving pre-wipe players huge advantages.

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A partial wipe is happening with abandoned tiles and constructs. 

 

NQ needs to put a time limit for keeping HQ tiles around for unsubbed accounts. For beta accounts, they last a certain period of no-login. 

 

There is no "winning" in DU. Each person and org will make their own way in DU. Some will engage in warfare (assuming this comes out) and carve out areas of control. Some people will toil in safe zone areas building, crafting, etc. 

 

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21 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

The whole concept of DU + subscriptions makes it so that a wipe must be avoided at all cost, and only used as a last resort when everything else has failed. It is that simple, really it is.

 

I.e. The only real asset in this game that keeps players logging in, is the constructs. Be it PvP ships or large base constructs, those constructs are the only thing that truly represent value to the players.

 

And I have yet to hear a single reasonable argument for a wipe, that would not be better addressed by a more gentle "soft wipe" intervention from NQ. Like they already did with the landscape reset needed to change the voxel planet coordinate system.

 

And why did they spend all that time and effort trying to minimize player impact including using NQ resources to help dig out constructs, if there is a full wipe planned for the near future?

As i told you before when the game will be released SH should follow what they advertise of the game, as new player who start from the first day i would be really disappointed seeing there are already lot of players who got everything, in such case i would subscribe 1 month then bye bye. But what we all are missing is the fact for us it should be just a game for SH is a business and mmo business should make focus on constant turnover of players giving them same chances that veteran players got, always remembering that veteran players will inevitably sooner or later leave due to exhaustion of interest in the game. and I believe that after 5 more years of beta many have already reached that level anyway, so who likes to play this game will not care to start everything from the beginning again, who instead lost most of his interest in the game wipe means start something boring from the beginning. This is the only real true thing. 

 
 

 

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On 4/6/2022 at 6:39 AM, Neuritico said:

As i told you before when the game will be released SH should follow what they advertise of the game, as new player who start from the first day i would be really disappointed seeing there are already lot of players who got everything, in such case i would subscribe 1 month then bye bye.

And after a year has passed another wipe? I don't get it - players which enter a game at a random point in time allways will be behind those who have been playing it before them. This game is meant to be a persistent and evolving sandbox. When you subscribe to EVE today you are behind people playing it for 19+ years.

Quote

.... so who likes to play this game will not care to start everything from the beginning again, who instead lost most of his interest in the game wipe means start something boring from the beginning. This is the only real true thing. 

No. I'm still very interested in playing this game, Only the uncertainty regarding a possible wipe is currently keeping me from pursuing several of my open projects further.
If they gonna wipe i'm done with this game, allready canceled the automatic subscription prolonging.

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On 3/22/2022 at 12:10 AM, blazemonger said:

generate revenue more than losing players who mostly already are playing for free ..

Sorry to Nit pick but no one plays the game for free - The people who are not paying monthly subscriptions payed up front far over the cost of monthly subscriptions as described by the original details of being an alpha backer.

 

Though I do agree its turned into a bargain in terms of initial cost versus subscriptions for myself, when considering how long Beta has been going on for (I think I get a year of subs when it releases too but I would have to check that and the T-Shirt etc) and I assume this is true for other people also on that package.

 

If I had found the game earlier (and had the money) I would love to have paid for unlimited access I have enjoyed the building of ships etc that much but I guess I'll have to pay subs when that time comes.

 

As for notions that the game will disappear - I doubt it based on how far it has come and the fact people enjoy playing it even with the 'limited' activities. I do hope the PVP update adds some more for PVP's to do - though I am dead set against reducing speed of large vessels for no physical (as in scientific) reason why. Anyway I am certain adding activities is not as difficult as making the playable, which it certainly is at present.

 

Addendum: Forgot to mention the topic of the thread - I an not fond of the idea of a wipe I think it would be waste of the content made. That said I like the idea of giving new players on release the vision of a blank canvas, I kind of like the idea of a new system instead of a wipe.

 

If they do wipe then I would say I am for the 'magic' blue prints that are time locked to allow new players to catch up since I really want to keep my designs especially the ships because they took ages to make and a lot of effort. I am even starting to like the look of the new ships I am building - looking less like boxes with engines (so much so I'd like to get a 3D printer to print them out for my desk). It would be fair that I am very please with them even though they have not been peer reviewed and  I can see other ships that look outstanding in game too.

Edited by ADCOne
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1 hour ago, ADCOne said:

Sorry to Nit pick but no one plays the game for free - The people who are not paying monthly subscriptions payed up front far over the cost of monthly subscriptions as described by the original details of being an alpha backer.

 

Let me nitpick right back.. ;)

 

Backers effectively pre-ordered game time as the cost for packs mostly coveres the DAC included, at the then expected proce of $15/mo or less depending on how far back you pledged.

 

Access to the servers upto and including beta for these packs was a perk and still is really as the backers will not pay anything for acceess until release.

So yes, anyone currently playeing who did not have to sub is playing for free.

 

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

So yes, anyone currently playeing who did not have to sub is playing for free.

 

Everyone payed to play so everyone is paying but now I think about it the only people who did not pay were the people who received a free beta key so you can have them if you like but I certainly payed money to play and the notion that only subs payed to play is incorrect.

 

Sorry to the original poster this thread seems to be turning into a lot of off topic arguments and I hope you get the answer you are after sooner rather than later.

Edited by ADCOne
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38 minutes ago, ADCOne said:

Everyone payed to play so everyone is paying but now I think about it the only people who did not pay were the people who received a free beta key so you can have them if you like but I certainly payed money to play and the notion that only subs payed to play is incorrect.

 

Sorry to the original poster this thread seems to be turning into a lot of off topic arguments and I hope you get the answer you are after sooner rather than later.


Was about to say. Paying $150 got what… 3, maybe 6 months of game time post launch? I don’t even remember. That  is at best a $50 value. Even including the post wipe beta period when subs were introduced, it’s more like people paid up front - not for free. Two years sub pre paid is like $168.

 

Hell, originally, a year was like $65.

So yeah, no one is playing for free. That’s ridiculous.

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So many people seem to be blind to (or want to ignore) the fact that current numbers will not sustain this game, even double or triple current numbers will result in the servers being turned off within a year or so. Which is a de facto ultimate wipe.

 

This game needs 50k+ subscribers to keep the lights on. In order to do that NQ has to do a massive advertising push at launch, and needs to advertise launch as ‘the true start’, that’s their best shot. This requires a reasonably comprehensive wipe (at the minimum the removal of all quanta and all skill points.)

 

All you people saying ‘what’s the point’ need to realise that that’s what new joiners want, they don’t want to feel like they’re starting on the back foot. 
 

I get that within a week or two the rich people will be rich again. 
 

I get that knowledge of the game is worth more than everything else so it will never be a level playing field.

 

I get that it’s annoying that people will loose everything they’ve worked for.

 

I get that people have spent a bunch of money on this already.

 

None of this matters, the fact is, a wipe will pull in far far more people than dual universe will loose from beta leavers. And numbers are all that matters to give the game a chance of being persistent long term.

 


 

I hope they wipe everything except static structures (with elements removed) and BPs. That way they can advertise the game as being ‘wiped except for aesthetic structures’.

 

 

 

Edited by Shredder
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1 hour ago, Shredder said:

So many people seem to be blind to (or want to ignore) the fact that current numbers will not sustain this game, even double or triple current numbers will result in the servers being turned off within a year or so. Which is a de facto ultimate wipe.

 

This game needs 50k+ subscribers to keep the lights on. In order to do that NQ has to do a massive advertising push at launch, and needs to advertise launch as ‘the true start’, that’s their best shot. This requires a reasonably comprehensive wipe (at the minimum the removal of all quanta and all skill points.)

 

All you people saying ‘what’s the point’ need to realise that that’s what new joiners want, they don’t want to feel like they’re starting on the back foot. 
 

I get that within a week or two the rich people will be rich again. 
 

I get that knowledge of the game is worth more than everything else so it will never be a level playing field.

 

I get that it’s annoying that people will loose everything they’ve worked for.

 

I get that people have spent a bunch of money on this already.

 

None of this matters, the fact is, a wipe will pull in far far more people than dual universe will loose from beta leavers. And numbers are all that matters to give the game a chance of being persistent long term.

 


 

I hope they wipe everything except static structures (with elements removed) and BPs. That way they can advertise the game as being ‘wiped except for aesthetic structures’.

 

 

 

Players that join only if there is a wipe, wont be playing for long. These players will be the first to leave when what ever new game comes out.  And with a subscription based game, its not about that initial purchase but continued subscription. 

 

Although I am not against catering to the play type of starting out.  Thats why I think every year, or every couple of months a new solar system (maybe just a single planet). gets added. Have it not reachable by helio's. Only way to play there is to start a new character there. Players in this new system must build a warpgate in able to join the playerbase in the helios system. This way everyone is happy.  Added advantage is if NQ ever decides that new solar system ever becomes under populated they could create the warpgate and create some sort of doomsday scenario where everyone has to evacuate that system before its destroyed for good. 

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11 hours ago, RugesV said:

Players that join only if there is a wipe, wont be playing for long. These players will be the first to leave when what ever new game comes out.  And with a subscription based game, its not about that initial purchase but continued subscription. 

 

Although I am not against catering to the play type of starting out.  Thats why I think every year, or every couple of months a new solar system (maybe just a single planet). gets added. Have it not reachable by helio's. Only way to play there is to start a new character there. Players in this new system must build a warpgate in able to join the playerbase in the helios system. This way everyone is happy.  Added advantage is if NQ ever decides that new solar system ever becomes under populated they could create the warpgate and create some sort of doomsday scenario where everyone has to evacuate that system before its destroyed for good. 

 

The "new star system" idea has been advanced several times now, and as has been pointed out by many, solves all the wipe/no wipe problems. Stay in the Helios System but be cut off from the rest of the playerbase for a year if you want to retain your quanta/stuff. Start from fresh in New System with the rest of the launch players if you want to begin anew. Major connection event after 1 year (accidentally removing lost of wealth from circulation) that will bring everyone together and generate lots of activity and publicity that will promote the game.

The only possible downside is that NQ will have to maintain 2 systems. But really the positivity generated from this approach should be able to bring in many new players (and bring back old players) that these costs could be easily offset. (Compare this to one group or the other not being happy at whatever wipe compromise is introduced, and generating lots of bad publicity that drives away new and old players.)

 

This idea is such a strong one, it should be directly addressed in the forthcoming wipe DevBlog.

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22 hours ago, Leppard said:

And after a year has passed another wipe? I don't get it - players which enter a game at a random point in time allways will be behind those who have been playing it before them. This game is meant to be a persistent and evolving sandbox. When you subscribe to EVE today you are behind people playing it for 19+ years.

No. I'm still very interested in playing this game, Only the uncertainty regarding a possible wipe is currently keeping me from pursuing several of my open projects further.
If they gonna wipe i'm done with this game, allready canceled the automatic subscription prolonging.

If you go back to 2nd page i wrote why wipe is not a solution but anyway it's a must. First of all this is a beta, so before an official release a wipe is necessary, for all those new players and also those players who subscribed the game then quit only because as beta version they were expecting a final reset, as it has always happened for every game. Meanwhile if developer's team will recognize there is a big gap in design of game and they will start to work to change it before game will be released, we might find a solution to present and  future issues. Now they applied another temporary solution: a new moon but, but more than a solution it's just a patch. The real problem are resources system who is the main core of economy and industry of this game. As long resources are limited to few and specific tiles who first arrive will take everything and even if a day such players will quit they will pass such tiles to their friends or members of their organization. So they must change this system as priority for a longevity of the game. I played EvE as well for long time, it currently just a game for pro players who lives in real by the real money they do by isk, SP and much more selling....So really it's not the best game you should compare with. If you want to talk about best business mmo you should talk about WoW, personally i never liked it, but anyway it's easy, and allow new players to join with no many restrictions.  Anyway you can talk with me about all big games you want as i most probably played each of them.... i started to play mmo since Daoc... so really long experience.

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19 hours ago, ADCOne said:

Everyone payed to play so everyone is paying but now I think about it the only people who did not pay were the people who received a free beta key so you can have them if you like but I certainly payed money to play and the notion that only subs payed to play is incorrect.

 

While I get that you may see it that way and certainly some will have pledged to gain access "now", effectively access prior to release has been a perk for backers and not paid for. The payment on a pledge was represented for by the DAC inclusded inthe pack which only come into effect on release. So from that, and effectvely, as long as the game is not being released backers have access (and play) at no cost to them which I woudl say implies they play for free (upto release).

TL;DR

Your payment only comes into effect on release, anything prior to that is abonus and free access.

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2 hours ago, Neuritico said:

.... as it has always happened for every game....

May be, but i'm playing MMOs for over 20 years now and i don't remember a single one, where players payed a subscription fee during a beta. Most other games have beta testing phases for some weeks to fix bugs, the servers are on and off, not running constantly.

That's the one big difference. If there has'nt been the message "we don't want to do a wipe, except there is no other way to solve massive technical issues" i never would have startet this game or invested so much time and effort.

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1 hour ago, Leppard said:

May be, but i'm playing MMOs for over 20 years now and i don't remember a single one, where players payed a subscription fee during a beta. Most other games have beta testing phases for some weeks to fix bugs, the servers are on and off, not running constantly.

That's the one big difference. If there has'nt been the message "we don't want to do a wipe, except there is no other way to solve massive technical issues" i never would have startet this game or invested so much time and effort.

You might be right there. But increasingly SHs make people pay for incomplete, seriously bugged games, projects that will never come to light as final versions. See Atlas (for example or DAOC unchained and again Scam citizen, where they recently came out with the sale of the spaceship set for the modest sum of 40,000 dollars. So i'm not that surprised to see a paid beta version. 

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5 hours ago, Neuritico said:

If you go back to 2nd page i wrote why wipe is not a solution but anyway it's a must. First of all this is a beta, so before an official release a wipe is necessary, for all those new players and also those players who subscribed the game then quit only because as beta version they were expecting a final reset, as it has always happened for every game. Meanwhile if developer's team will recognize there is a big gap in design of game and they will start to work to change it before game will be released, we might find a solution to present and  future issues. Now they applied another temporary solution: a new moon but, but more than a solution it's just a patch. The real problem are resources system who is the main core of economy and industry of this game. As long resources are limited to few and specific tiles who first arrive will take everything and even if a day such players will quit they will pass such tiles to their friends or members of their organization. So they must change this system as priority for a longevity of the game. I played EvE as well for long time, it currently just a game for pro players who lives in real by the real money they do by isk, SP and much more selling....So really it's not the best game you should compare with. If you want to talk about best business mmo you should talk about WoW, personally i never liked it, but anyway it's easy, and allow new players to join with no many restrictions.  Anyway you can talk with me about all big games you want as i most probably played each of them.... i started to play mmo since Daoc... so really long experience.

 

There are plenty of tiles with tons of resources on them all over. If I wanted to get more of anything, I'm 99% sure I could find a ton of good/decent tiles for them. Autominers make ore trivial and saying there is some kind of scarcity to any of it is just a lie. That and Asteroids can provide you 100% of anything you might need. Wiping is bad faith on those who stayed and played, those who paid, with no indication on the purchase page there would/could be a wipe, and will likely end up removing more people than they will end up back with. The game doesn't really have any good press to begin with, and as I have said many times, there isnt a huge crowd lined up ready for "release". The game has been out for awhile as soon as they started taking direct subs and not "founders early access".

 

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1 hour ago, CyberDay said:

 

There are plenty of tiles with tons of resources on them all over. If I wanted to get more of anything, I'm 99% sure I could find a ton of good/decent tiles for them. Autominers make ore trivial and saying there is some kind of scarcity to any of it is just a lie. That and Asteroids can provide you 100% of anything you might need. Wiping is bad faith on those who stayed and played, those who paid, with no indication on the purchase page there would/could be a wipe, and will likely end up removing more people than they will end up back with. The game doesn't really have any good press to begin with, and as I have said many times, there isnt a huge crowd lined up ready for "release". The game has been out for awhile as soon as they started taking direct subs and not "founders early access".

 

 

I agree.

Any reason for a wipe will be bad and sends a messaged "we at NQ did not know what we were doing".

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1 minute ago, kulkija said:

 

I agree.

Any reason for a wipe will be bad and sends a messaged "we at NQ did not know what we were doing".

There’s an estimated 4K current subscribers, and DU need an estimated 50k - 100k to be viable. If NQ prioritise current players over new ones in any way, THEN they wouldn’t know what they’re doing.


New starters arnt going to care what NQ did during beta, release is when a promise of a ‘persistent world’ is deemed to truly start. Anything before then is fair game and the viability of the company is all anyone should care about. 

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28 minutes ago, Shredder said:

There’s an estimated 4K current subscribers, and DU need an estimated 50k - 100k to be viable. If NQ prioritise current players over new ones in any way, THEN they wouldn’t know what they’re doing.


New starters arnt going to care what NQ did during beta, release is when a promise of a ‘persistent world’ is deemed to truly start. Anything before then is fair game and the viability of the company is all anyone should care about. 

Source?

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5 minutes ago, kulkija said:

Source?

Anecdotal from discord & forums, nothing verifiable. 
 

Actually the 4K current subs number I think is always quoted as that’s what those MMORPG tracking websites estimate.

 

I believe the 50k - 100k needed subs, is based on current costs, estimated by staff numbers at NQ.

 

Edited by Shredder
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