Why are PvP weapon talents size specific?

[space_man]

No other talent tree is size specific, and in its current form the talent tree really pigeon holes pvp players into one type of weapon which makes for dull PvP. Because of how many talents are need, most players go into the most common weapon types, and that just makes the nano meta more common. Overall the PvP talents are too specific and broad (Ammo, HP, handing really add up), and combining all weapon talents into one tree would be a good (and simple) change that NQ should make in my opinion. 

 

While were at it, lets get a talent reset. Please NQ! This game is a beta, and we shouldn't be stuck living with mistakes (some our own). With the introduction of shields metas changed, yet there was no respec. One excuse NQ-Pann gave was, if we need to reset on this update, then every update will need a respec... That is the correct mind set but with the wrong result. You should have an opt in respec on every major update!

 

We've been mislead by the lack of a long term roadmap, and its hard to say what direct the game is going, yet training takes years - and a year of game time does not come at a small expense. 

 

Another point to consider, is that PvP already needs all aspects of the game. For example a PvP org or trusted collection of players will need a few industry players, including some with fuel, scrap, and honeycomb, a few more players with handling buffs for engines, adjustors, etc, more players with handling for HP, more players for handling the weapons, radar, and some players to gather resources, before the main PvP talents are even trained. All aspects of the game are already heavily involved, which is why PvP is so uncommon for the typical single player, and even small groups who would rather spend their time in the safe zone.

 

In closing, I would love to be more involved in the new group of PvP racing wherein S-core ships are used to race though PvP space - however I'm already locked into training large weapons (and only training the required talents).  And because any PvP talents for small weapons would go to waste, I fell like that is not right. If you learn industry, radars, piloting, mining, you are not penalized in this manner, so I urge NQ to reconsider the weapon size specific talents and make one talent tree that applies to all weapon sizes, or some other path to PvP that doesn't require so many talent points.

[space_man]

(Correction) Some talent trees have prerequisites but its rather inconsistent and less common in the other talent trees. Assembly Line Efficiency, but not Assembly Line Handling for some reason. 

[GraXXoR]

I think much of the talent tree was generated generically without much actually consideration as to why. 

 

the more skills we have in the tree, the longer players are “locked in” to skill up. 
 

And it’s current implementation was likely another placeholder that became permanent. 

For example, creating new talents that merely shift a factor’s value within the game is super easy and ironically doesn’t require much talent to introduce so they do that everywhere they can, possibly using a generic formula.
 

when automated approaches are used, some aspects can often cease to make sense, like there is even a skill to increase bed and washbasin hitpoints by something like 2% per level or something. 
 

creating brand new skills that have actual

mechanics like unlocking assets or making new mechanics available on the other hand requires more manual effort which is why the vast majority of the skills are merely magnifiers.

this is of course purely speculation on my part. 

[blazemonger]

4 hours ago, space_man said:

No other talent tree is size specific

 

Which other talent tree shoud/could be size specific?

 

  

4 hours ago, space_man said:

While were at it, lets get a talent reset.

I expect one closer to release, probably sometime November. It wil lbe part of a wipe where constructs get returned to inventory as blueprints and accruees talentpoints back to the pool

 

 

4 hours ago, space_man said:

We've been mislead by the lack of a long term roadmap,

I doubt there is a long term roadmap, IMO NQ is aiming at a releease endo fthe year and what happens after will depend on wheher or not enough players show up to support the game having a lifespan of more than a year after.

 

The short term roadmap fo rthis year, leading up to "release" is pretty much known as it is on the existing one IMO.

 

 

 

[RugesV]

some factory skills are size dependant.  Core deployment is size dependant. Radars are size dependant. Ammo is size dependant. The only thing that is not size dependant is  engines/manuvering/thrusters.  If your argument is uniformity. then maybe the things that are not size dependant, should get new skills to make them size dependant. 

 

But onto your first question "Why are PvP weapon talents size specific?"   Its because its a game that needs progression for players to unlock. It allows specialization. Sure everyone wants to be jack of all trades. Allowing for specialization makes players who specialize more sought after, atleast in what ever the current fad is. 

[CptLoRes]

6 hours ago, Jinxed said:

And it’s current implementation was likely another placeholder that became permanent.

DU development in a nutshell.

[space_man]

7 hours ago, RugesV said:

some factory skills are size dependant.  Core deployment is size dependant. Radars are size dependant. Ammo is size dependant. The only thing that is not size dependant is  engines/manuvering/thrusters.  If your argument is uniformity. then maybe the things that are not size dependant, should get new skills to make them size dependant. 

 

But onto your first question "Why are PvP weapon talents size specific?"   Its because its a game that needs progression for players to unlock. It allows specialization. Sure everyone wants to be jack of all trades. Allowing for specialization makes players who specialize more sought after, atleast in what ever the current fad is. 

 

The progression should be uniform. So they could either add more prerequisites for other things like engines, retros, adjustors, mining units, or anything else that has a size. Or combine the radar and weapon talents, and combine the assembly line operator talents which was the only other talent tree unrelated to pvp.

 

The end result would benefit medium ships the most, but also allow new players to try stuff out on small weapons without wasting talents.

 

Thinking about the case we're they would add size specific talents to engines... That would drive more demand to use large and extra large in almost all cases for many players who want to maximize their talents.

[space_man]

12 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

Which other talent tree shoud/could be size specific?

 

  

I expect one closer to release, probably sometime November. It wil lbe part of a wipe where constructs get returned to inventory as blueprints and accruees talentpoints back to the pool

 

 

I doubt there is a long term roadmap, IMO NQ is aiming at a releease endo fthe year and what happens after will depend on wheher or not enough players show up to support the game having a lifespan of more than a year after.

 

The short term roadmap fo rthis year, leading up to "release" is pretty much known as it is on the existing one IMO.

 

 

 

A real wipe would be better than leaving the wipe up to the players (referring to pancake, core slots).

[space_man]

14 hours ago, Jinxed said:

I think much of the talent tree was generated generically without much actually consideration as to why. 

 

the more skills we have in the tree, the longer players are “locked in” to skill up. 
 

And it’s current implementation was likely another placeholder that became permanent. 

For example, creating new talents that merely shift a factor’s value within the game is super easy and ironically doesn’t require much talent to introduce so they do that everywhere they can, possibly using a generic formula.
 

when automated approaches are used, some aspects can often cease to make sense, like there is even a skill to increase bed and washbasin hitpoints by something like 2% per level or something. 
 

creating brand new skills that have actual

mechanics like unlocking assets or making new mechanics available on the other hand requires more manual effort which is why the vast majority of the skills are merely magnifiers.

this is of course purely speculation on my part. 

 

Its a beta, we shouldn't be locked in. The pts is almost non existent so how do we try anything before locking in?

[Honvik]

Guess you could say why is industry locked in too? 

[GraXXoR]

On 3/17/2022 at 7:01 PM, CptLoRes said:

DU development in a nutshell.

You should try Elite Dangerous. Half of that game is still placeholder after nearly 10 years. 

[GraXXoR]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:40 AM, space_man said:

 

Its a beta, we shouldn't be locked in. The pts is almost non existent so how do we try anything before locking in?

Not entirely sure if you’re asking me or asking in general, or even entirely sure what you mean. 

[CptLoRes]

On 3/17/2022 at 6:40 PM, space_man said:

 

Its a beta, we shouldn't be locked in. The pts is almost non existent so how do we try anything before locking in?

DU is nowhere near beta. It's still alpha by any established definition. But for reasons mostly economical NQ must pretend we are in beta and just about ready for a proper release. And this is why we commonly use quotation marks in the forum threads when saying that DU is in "beta".

 

Here is an excerpt from the wiki about software release life cycles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

 

- Alpha software may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version.

 

- A beta phase generally begins when the software is feature complete but likely to contain a number of known or unknown bugs.

 

And then often as software get close to an official release there is a short RC (Release Candidate) stage where any and all feature dev is frozen and only bugs are fixed.

[space_man]

On 3/20/2022 at 12:31 AM, Jinxed said:

Not entirely sure if you’re asking me or asking in general, or even entirely sure what you mean. 

Just ranting at NQ, and how much they've left untouched for so long.

[space_man]

On 3/20/2022 at 12:30 AM, Jinxed said:

You should try Elite Dangerous. Half of that game is still placeholder after nearly 10 years. 

Tried it. Don't care for the visuals. Same with no man sky. Space engineers is pretty good, but doesn't have the scale or level of detail in building.

[Zarcata]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:50 AM, RugesV said:

But onto your first question "Why are PvP weapon talents size specific?"   Its because its a game that needs progression for players to unlock. It allows specialization. Sure everyone wants to be jack of all trades. Allowing for specialization makes players who specialize more sought after, atleast in what ever the current fad is. 

That is simply nonsensical.
There is no specialization if you have to skill everything beforehand to get something that is meta. The way to get there is the same for everyone, so it's not individual, it's just timesink.
It would be really specialized if you could focus more on weapons and weapon size without skilling something you don't even need. The skill system in DualUniverse is just nonsensically designed. It only offers one thing, maximum skill duration, without really creating anything individual.

 

[RugesV]

9 hours ago, Zarcata said:

That is simply nonsensical.
There is no specialization if you have to skill everything beforehand to get something that is meta. The way to get there is the same for everyone, so it's not individual

This is not eve. you dont have to skill everything before you get to the meta skills.   

 

You can specialize in Railguns  without having to put a single skill into Laser, Missile, or Cannons.  You can specialize in M weapons with minimal skills in S weapons.  

 

You can specialize in industry handing without ever touching efficiency. You can specialize in efficiency without ever touching handling.  You can specialize in Products without ever specializing in pures.  You can specialize in plastics without ever touching metals.  You can specialize in production without ever touching mining. 

[space_man]

On 3/22/2022 at 3:19 PM, RugesV said:

This is not eve. you dont have to skill everything before you get to the meta skills.   

 

You can specialize in Railguns  without having to put a single skill into Laser, Missile, or Cannons.  You can specialize in M weapons with minimal skills in S weapons.  

 

You can specialize in industry handing without ever touching efficiency. You can specialize in efficiency without ever touching handling.  You can specialize in Products without ever specializing in pures.  You can specialize in plastics without ever touching metals.  You can specialize in production without ever touching mining. 

Its like they didn't think it out.