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Pleione

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3 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

IMO the best answer is to stop delaying, communicate the long term plan and if there is going to be a wipe do it *right now* so the problems don't keep on getting worse.  For those of us who will quit there's no point stringing us along for another 6 months, let us go do something else now and let the ones waiting in the sidelines come in and play instead.  Or go the other way, let them go do something else and let us play properly without holding back in fear of our work getting deleted.  

I wish NQ would announce this but it doesn’t seem like something they would do. Given their past tendencies I feel that they’ll wait until the last minute to announce a wipe or further erasures/deletion mechanics. Just look at the core changes. They saved the worst for last and highlighted every other feature in dev blogs beforehand.

 

If they have decided to wipe already I don’t believe they will tell us until we’re blindsided and lose most or all of our progress from now until the wipe. The only ones who may be aware before that time are certain streamers and/or people who have close contact with certain employees at NQ. Which is very unfair to the rest of us.

 

Since NQ doesn’t have financial issues, why won’t they just tell us if they will commit to a full wipe or say if it’s off the table? If they are going to wipe they should tell us. Surely they can survive if players decide to take a break until release. If they aren’t going to wipe then they should tell us how they’re going to fix the effects of the exploits.

Edited by Sostraphaios
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59 minutes ago, Sostraphaios said:

I wish NQ would announce this but it doesn’t seem like something they would do. Given their past tendencies I feel that they’ll wait until the last minute to announce a wipe or further erasures/deletion mechanics. Just look at the core changes. They saved the worst for last and highlighted every other feature in dev blogs beforehand.

 

If they have decided to wipe already I don’t believe they will tell us until we’re blindsided and lose most or all of our progress from now until the wipe. The only ones who may be aware before that time are certain streamers and/or people who have close contact with certain employees at NQ. Which is very unfair to the rest of us.

 

Since NQ doesn’t have financial issues, why won’t they just tell us if they will commit to a full wipe or say if it’s off the table? If they are going to wipe they should tell us. Surely they can survive if players decide to take a break until release. If they aren’t going to wipe then they should tell us how they’re going to fix the effects of the exploits.

Giving notice of a wipe is another "damned if they do, damned if they don't" problem though isn't it?  The less notice people get the stronger the negative reaction will be (nobody likes to wake up to find their stuff deleted) but more notice means that either more people will game the wipe or more people will cancel their subs until after it.

 

But the longer we go without a decision the more cumulative effort there is in the game (and the larger the cumulative subscription money paid gets).  So the 'cost' to the players of a wipe is going up and up all the time.  Last year I felt like I was OK with a wipe, but today when I saw talk about one in September I realised that I have too much invested right now to want it deleted and by then I will have invested even more and will be even more against it.  So somewhere between last year and now I crossed the line and now I probably won't play after a wipe.  Had someone announced a this-September wipe last year I would have been OK with that but I'd have mostly stopped playing the game (and paying subs) until then.  And over time more and more people will be tipping into the "I've come to far to start again" camp.

 

Like you, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a sudden, possibly partial ninja-wipe later on down the line which some people were able to see coming and protect themselves against, everyone else gets annoyed and a significant number quit.  It would be history repeating itself.

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7 hours ago, Pleione said:

 

It would also be very symbolic to the tens of  thousands of players that have left the game (mostly back around 0.23).  It would provide a clear "Come back for a fresh start" message to a huge population of previously loyal players that are no longer around, other than for the occasional touch-base and talent queue refresh.  You know... those guys that participated in the original Kickstarter, spending a year or so of subscriptions up front.  e.g.  People that left due to dissatisfaction rather than financial reasons.   

But a lot of those players left because they didn't want to play the quanta/market focussed game that schematics forced on them and preferred instead to gather their own resources and build everything themselves.  For all those people nothing has changed since then.  Actually for some it has got worse because it's harder for them to gather all the different types of mineral now. 

I'm still in an old discord for an org which was active pre-0.23.  Every now and again someone comes back, complains about the schematic cost of setting up to build everything themselves and leaves again.  Others I know have sold their assets for Starbase money/RL money/whatever, given away accounts, etc and moved on.

I think the reality is that most of those players are gone now and are not coming back.  Some might, but is it going to be enough to offset the loyal players who *did* stick with the game through the bad times and are still playing it *in its current form* but who will not stick around if they have to start from scratch?  And what is it which will make the ones who already quit one time stick around a second go rather than just quitting a second time?

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8 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

But a lot of those players left because they didn't want to play the quanta/market focussed game that schematics forced on them and preferred instead to gather their own resources and build everything themselves.  For all those people nothing has changed since then.  Actually for some it has got worse because it's harder for them to gather all the different types of mineral now.

Exactly! The is hardly nothing left of the "make you own game" version of DU that NQ sold us, and it is getting worse ever time there is a new patch.

And it is not just about reducing server cost, but also how NQ for a long time now has been removing options and dictating how players should play the game.

 

And no amount of wipe is going to change this. And if I was forced to start over at this point, I don't think I would bother as things stand in the game.

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3 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

And if I was forced to start over at this point, I don't think I would bother as things stand in the game.

 

I'd totally half-äss it, would probably not even bother putting a roof over my head... Just a few containers, 3 tiles with MU + sanctuary(no concern for profitability, just the closest possible that takes the least time to manage), let charges go to waste for a good 15 months or so probably longer before somebody or something pulls me in, so maybe I just fizzle out instead...

 

Stopped playing after schematics too but since a friend wanted to try the game about a year back (he stopped allready) I have at least gotten the daily quanta, used the charges etc. If the game launches without wipe, I can see myself lowkey headhunting: if I like a noob and if he looks like he is sticking with the game I'll get them on their feet... Hopefully meet likeminded people who have a somewhat serious commitment to the game. It's true that right now everything is in limbo... I don't let the opportunities go to waste, but I'm hardly playing the game, just managing my various timers on various accounts.

 

If they wipe I pay 1 subscription and let 3 accounts go to waste, if I keep my stuff I'll probably stick to two accounts, possibly substitute the 2 others with DAC if I have a use case and the rightful owners don't return.

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The point many here keep missing is that what _we_ think or feel about any of this is _not relevant_. Subjective personal truths and opinion really do not count.

 

Especially for backers, many are a burden for NQ. Our money has been spent years ago and a lot of us will not need to pay a cent for many months, if not years, to come. Our beta key alts will mostly vanish once we will need to start paying for them, or we will spread our DAC across these alts. I have three backer accounts with about 5 years of DAC between them.. And there is many in the same situation. So, from NQ's perspective, I am a low value customer, if not worthless.

NQ will need to attract tens of thousands of new players who will pay a subscription every month and maintain that level of subs to keep the lights on. Their best chance of making that happen is to offer a clean slate and a fresh start, even when existing players still have a massive lead in experience and talent points. Offering the clean world, combined with a possible early start prior to official launch, will be the best option form a business perspective. And the visionary has left the building with the business choices currently setting the tone at NQ.

 

And with relation to the automatic abandonment, that will be a problem closer to release. A busted economy as it is broken by surplus of materials and many of the few remaining players sitting on piles upon piles of "stuff" will not help the game mature and grow, it wil only slow it down and probably cause it to stagnate

 


So yes, a wipe is, in what I believe to be a very reasonable educated guess as well as from an objective point of view, both inevitable and certain to happen. You can stick to your opinions, but I am pretty sure that when it comes around to it, I will be right here.

 

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Because tabula rasa will help the game to "grow", not an inherent ability to self regulate...

 

 

No narrative here sure. Can you please explain us with your hard-nosed obejctivity and deep insight into NQ's heart and minds, how the wipe will prevent the game from facing the same issues one year after the wipe? How it will do anything but satisfy the subjective perception of potential customers? How likely are these same fair-weather friends to stay?

 

 

It's the same people that haven't gotten over their schematics tantrum, it's the same people that keep badmouthing the game. Oh no but you are gonna attract totally new players after badmouthing the game for every pedantic detail. Because next time everything is going to be totally different I swear.

 

 

Amathia con artist.

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Whatever logical or reasonabel arguments would be presented to you, you wil always either spin or, rip them out of context them to suit your opinion or just plain ignore them if you can't. There is no point in arguing with you so no, I won't.

 

As I've said before, we will know who is right in a few months time..

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Tens of thousands of players in the starting holes, well enough informed to care about beta incidents, yet not deterred by the constant "bad reviews" and doomsaying the likes of you keep painting all across all exchange platforms.

 

 

Just too plausible for my tiny brain.

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

Offering the clean world, combined with a possible early start prior to official launch, will be the best option form a business perspective. And the visionary has left the building with the business choices currently setting the tone at NQ.

Only if all those new players live in a bobble, since a wipe would cause a shit storm like no other.

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A shitstorm where? the wipe will happen well before the actual release, the "shitstorm" you seem to expect I do not see coming as some will just move on, most will just start over and a handful will be going reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee and generally then just also start over.

I'm going to leave it at what I said before, we'll revisit this end of the year..

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

Whatever logical or reasonabel arguments would be presented to you, you wil always either spin or, rip them out of context them to suit your opinion or just plain ignore them if you can't. There is no point in arguing with you so no, I won't.

 

As I've said before, we will know who is right in a few months time..

 

You haven't presented a single reasonable argument yet Blaze.  Not One.

 

Why would they wipe?

 

Removing intentionally unabandoned constructs from sanctuary can easily be accomplished with abandonment if NQ decides that's something they need to do.  So you can forget about that one.

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23 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

You haven't presented a single reasonable argument yet Blaze.  Not One.

 

What do you mean if they launch by the end of the year the entirety of his vast sea of assumptions will be vindicated. ?

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

The point many here keep missing is that what _we_ think or feel about any of this is _not relevant_. Subjective personal truths and opinion really do not count.

 

Especially for backers, many are a burden for NQ. Our money has been spent years ago and a lot of us will not need to pay a cent for many months, if not years, to come. Our beta key alts will mostly vanish once we will need to start paying for them, or we will spread our DAC across these alts. I have three backer accounts with about 5 years of DAC between them.. And there is many in the same situation. So, from NQ's perspective, I am a low value customer, if not worthless.

NQ will need to attract tens of thousands of new players who will pay a subscription every month and maintain that level of subs to keep the lights on. Their best chance of making that happen is to offer a clean slate and a fresh start, even when existing players still have a massive lead in experience and talent points. Offering the clean world, combined with a possible early start prior to official launch, will be the best option form a business perspective. And the visionary has left the building with the business choices currently setting the tone at NQ.

 

And with relation to the automatic abandonment, that will be a problem closer to release. A busted economy as it is broken by surplus of materials and many of the few remaining players sitting on piles upon piles of "stuff" will not help the game mature and grow, it wil only slow it down and probably cause it to stagnate

 


So yes, a wipe is, in what I believe to be a very reasonable educated guess as well as from an objective point of view, both inevitable and certain to happen. You can stick to your opinions, but I am pretty sure that when it comes around to it, I will be right here.

 

I disagree with more or less everything you said there because this is a game where the players create the content and we will need a lot of player created content in order to attract new players.  Do you really think there are tens of thousands of players waiting in the wings ready to join up in the first 2 weeks after a launch and surface gather/run missions until their eyes bleed?  I think you're dreaming!  This is a niche game and a lot of people 'in the niche' will already have tried the game.  I'm sure there are lots of players who will one day play but I think those players will join slowly over time rather than in one big burst.

 

Also, what sort of experience is a new player going to get at release after a wipe.  All of the existing players will already be way ahead of them (no level playing field here, we'll all be min-maxing missions from day 1!) and most will be too busy to help them onboard.  There won't be any cities to visit, shiny ships to buy, asteroid mining runs or PvP to join in with, just a bunch of people semi-afk while their ship earns back their money.

 

And as for the broken market with material surplus, this is caused by fundamental problems with the way the game works (infinite production and talent points reducing the cost of production, for example) which mean that even after a wipe the market will be very quickly filled with surplus everything before any new players have had a chance to find their feet.

 

Organised groups will re-form and own asteroids, etc just like they did before.  The people with giant factories will quickly get these back up and running.  And new players will be reduced to being paid to fly missions for the more experienced players, surface gathering and handing it over, etc until the game gets established again.

 

Far better, IMO, to bring the new players into an established world with new player PvP training programs, asteroid mining missions to join in with, mining units set up which people can use their charges on, cities to visit, ships to buy, etc. 

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I think some people are more interested in making predictions, and being right, then having an honest discussion about why NQ would wipe.  And whether it would be good or bad for the game, in the long term.

 

I'm very much aware that NQ could decide to wipe.  That's why i'm here discussing it.  But i only see one reason that they would consider it, and it's to provide the "fresh start" that the OP is asking for.

 

Launch, and the first few days/weeks after the final wipe is a HUGE deal in persistent world games like this.  People want to be there for it.  They will pay to be there for it.  They already paid to be there for it.

 

It's entirely possible NQ might be tempted to sell that product again.

 

And with absolutely no other reason for a wipe, that's exactly what they would be doing.  Selling out the game's future for a quick cash-grab.

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, blazemonger said:

The point many here keep missing is that what _we_ think or feel about any of this is _not relevant_. Subjective personal truths and opinion really do not count.

 

Especially for backers, many are a burden for NQ. Our money has been spent years ago and a lot of us will not need to pay a cent for many months, if not years, to come. Our beta key alts will mostly vanish once we will need to start paying for them, or we will spread our DAC across these alts. I have three backer accounts with about 5 years of DAC between them.. And there is many in the same situation. So, from NQ's perspective, I am a low value customer, if not worthless.

NQ will need to attract tens of thousands of new players who will pay a subscription every month and maintain that level of subs to keep the lights on. Their best chance of making that happen is to offer a clean slate and a fresh start, even when existing players still have a massive lead in experience and talent points. Offering the clean world, combined with a possible early start prior to official launch, will be the best option form a business perspective. And the visionary has left the building with the business choices currently setting the tone at NQ.

 

And with relation to the automatic abandonment, that will be a problem closer to release. A busted economy as it is broken by surplus of materials and many of the few remaining players sitting on piles upon piles of "stuff" will not help the game mature and grow, it wil only slow it down and probably cause it to stagnate

 


So yes, a wipe is, in what I believe to be a very reasonable educated guess as well as from an objective point of view, both inevitable and certain to happen. You can stick to your opinions, but I am pretty sure that when it comes around to it, I will be right here.

 

If DU had destruction sinks to match the current faucets coming from MU’s, Asteroids, Surface Harvesting and soon Alien Cores I’m pretty sure all these reserves will be watered down fairly quickly.
 

The only reserve that has real major impact is schematic’s. Maybe it’s time we shifted that system to limited run and start injecting schematics into the system from a variety of sources other than just NPC markets?

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14 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

I disagree with more or less everything you said there because this is a game where the players create the content and we will need a lot of player created content in order to attract new players.  Do you really think there are tens of thousands of players waiting in the wings ready to join up in the first 2 weeks after a launch and surface gather/run missions until their eyes bleed? 

 

Do you really think that what you say is "needed" is in game now? Do you realize it is extremely likely NQ will be "releasing" this game this year? Which player base will be providing what you describe? How are you ignoring the massive amount of junk and what will be the massive number of abandoned constructs once beta keys expire.

The reason I expect NQ will wipe and then offer a head start of something like 4 weeks is _exactly_ for the reasons you mention and on top of that, if you think that the existing player base is going to be inclusive towards  the many new players or that new players seek out existing groups just like that is a pipe dream. Unless NQ does some serious work to enable that, it will not happen. And they do not have time to do any of that as they will have their hands full setting up the very basic game for release they have now.

 

Once Athena is in, DU is pretty much what it will be at release, some minor changes, polish and balance maybe, but that's it. NQ will need the numbers I mentioned just to pay the bills and be able to keep working on the game, in order to get those players, it is my belief that a wipe will be required to allow the stage to be set and to also allow some of the changes I expect to become effective. Changes like limiting how high you can stack static cores, elimination of many random voxel strips up in the skies around markets. AGG constructs hovering with no need for resources, inevitable actually functional changes to markets as what they implemented in Panacea is already showing to not be effective at all (as predicted).

 

What you say would make sense if the game had another 1-2 years to mature and see the trash filter out maybe, but that is not going to happen. It is very obvious NQ is gearing up for a release end of this year and it will need to be a game able to take on tens of thousands of new players which for a number of reasons simply is not going to be viable as-is. Question one is whether the numbers NQ needs will show up, which I doubt, but if they do, I believe a wipe will be the best possible way to accommodate that. Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinions and if I am wrong then.. I am wrong. But I do not expect to be wrong in this, we'll know in 8-9 months.

 

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The wipe wil not be about a "fair start". I also would not expect the wipe to be a complete one, those who currently have access will keep their constructs as blueprints and their talent points which will be returned to the pool. 

 

The moment NQ started charging money for access they lost the option for a full wipe

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On 3/4/2022 at 2:00 PM, blazemonger said:

The point many here keep missing is that what _we_ think or feel about any of this is _not relevant_. Subjective personal truths and opinion really do not count.

 

Especially for backers, many are a burden for NQ. Our money has been spent years ago and a lot of us will not need to pay a cent for many months, if not years, to come. Our beta key alts will mostly vanish once we will need to start paying for them, or we will spread our DAC across these alts. I have three backer accounts with about 5 years of DAC between them.. And there is many in the same situation. So, from NQ's perspective, I am a low value customer, if not worthless.

NQ will need to attract tens of thousands of new players who will pay a subscription every month and maintain that level of subs to keep the lights on. Their best chance of making that happen is to offer a clean slate and a fresh start, even when existing players still have a massive lead in experience and talent points. Offering the clean world, combined with a possible early start prior to official launch, will be the best option form a business perspective. And the visionary has left the building with the business choices currently setting the tone at NQ.

 

I got sidetracked so i actually forgot to argue my main point. :)

 

From an economical standpoint NQ needs to attract new players in large numbers as quickly as possible, no argument against that.

But even from NQ's perspective there is still value in the old players. And that is to show player retention in the game. Point being there is little use in wiping for new players, if the current core game mechanics are unable to keep even the more dedicated backers from leaving. And I have yet to see any sensible argument for how a wipe will solve the core mechanics of this game.

 

I.e. any short term advantage gained from a wipe that might attract new players, would quickly be lost once they discover how little actual game player there is. And we all know it is MUCH harder to get someone back, once they leave. And the community and youtube backlash would become even worse then what it already is today. So in my opinion it would be in NQ's best interest to avoid any draconian measures for attracting new players, until the game retention is proven to be  drastically improved. And ironically I suspect that if NQ ever manage to make such a game, then there would no longer be any need for a wipe either..

 

Edit: So the only wipe that makes sense to me, is a wipe that would be required to introduce large sweeping changes that would drastically improve the game. And that is what I think NQ meant, when they said then they would like to avoid a wipe as long as it was technically possible.

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2 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

But even from NQ's perspective there is still value in the old players. And that is to show player retention in the game. 

I understand what you are saying here but I do not agree. What NQ needs to retain their new players is to have experienced players who will bring the new ones up with them, not sit on their private little kingdoms looking down on how the (new) plebs struggle. And the best way to do that is to weed out the egos. Not saying that anyone against a wipe is in that category, but most of the egos will be in there.

 

A group of "old" players starting out (with their talents intact" will be able to take the ne players along and those, in turn will pick up the ones that come after them. I have never said and do not believe a wipe would be about a level playing field and frankly, that would no be needed.

 

 

2 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

And I have yet to see any sensible argument for how a wipe will solve the core mechanics of this game.

The wipe itself would not be that, and I can agree a wipe alone would not have enough of an impact to make a difference. However, it would/Could be the point where NQ can make some changes which are tougher to implement on an existing world.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

I.e. any short term advantage gained from a wipe that might attract new players, would quickly be lost once they discover how little actual game player there is.

True, and the difference of POV here is that I see a wipe as the starting point of a longer term plan, not an "instant solution". It also need to be part of a plan and not just a wipe.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

Edit: So the only wipe that makes sense to me, is a wipe that would be required to introduce large sweeping changes that would drastically improve the game. And that is what I think NQ meant, when they said then they would like to avoid a wipe as long as it was technically possible.

And this is pretty much exactly why _in that context_ I expect a wipe to come and be needed. It will reset what has been, erase the fallout of mistakes and allow changes to come into play which will further remove the need to wipe again, if NQ has taken note and learnt from the last two years. I believe a wipe towards release has always been a given, which might have been a point which NQ would try and prevent but as beta progressed, several issues and exploits made that inevitable so NQ has adopted a policy of not rocking the boat toio much on such exploits as they knew they would be wiping pre-release anyway.

 

And no, the exploits and their fallout were never "the" reason for the coming wipe, just a factor that played into that. In general, and not against anyone specifically, I find it interesting how some will just plain ignore any arguments or reasoning that goes against their opinion and pretend myself and those who agree with me are just on a position of "wanting to win the argument". This is not about winning anything and once more, if NQ does not wipe, while I will maintain that would be a mistake in the long run, then so be it.

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"The wipe itself would not be that, and I can agree a wipe alone would not have enough of an impact to make a difference. However, it would/Could be the point where NQ can make some changes which are tougher to implement on an existing world."

 

 

(sry for loose quote but I'm on phone)

 

I have no qualms at all with technical reasons forcing them to wipe but given they allready wiped the terrain, I wonder what couldn't be softwiped...

 

Also I can guarantee you with highest degree of confidence that: should I happen to have free time on a wipe, I am sure as hell not spending it teaching someone the game, I'm rushing to get what I can.

 

Bored players on the other hand....

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20 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

And this is pretty much exactly why _in that context_ I expect a wipe to come and be needed. It will reset what has been, erase the fallout of mistakes and allow changes to come into play which will further remove the need to wipe again, if NQ has taken note and learnt from the last two years. I believe a wipe towards release has always been a given, which might have been a point which NQ would try and prevent but as beta progressed, several issues and exploits made that inevitable so NQ has adopted a policy of not rocking the boat toio much on such exploits as they knew they would be wiping pre-release anyway.

My problem is that the longer I see NQ operate, the less I think they will be able to affect any large scale changes for end of year "release" that would justify the wipe.

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