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ROADMAP UPDATE: PREPARE FOR WAR WITH THE COMING OF 0.29 "ATHENA" - discussion thread


NQ-Wanderer

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5 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

The fact that there is not a single word on any form of defensive counters is a concern, yes. Space will remain mostly empty without it and the mainingredient of this update will be irrelevant to a great many in the playerbase who really do not care for or want to partake in PVP engagements and would look for ways to mitigate or avooid them befrore venturing out.

 

No, it's OK.  There is a new PvP shiny thing.  And all the PvP players will be 'Oooh, shiny thing over there' and go fight each other in a corner so you can go about your business without being attacked.  

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4 hours ago, Dracostan said:

I'm not looking for a get out of Pvp button - I'm looking for balance between haulers and warships that enable a chance for the defender to escape - what NQ has handed to the PvPers with a stasis weapon (and potential speed changes) is a golden gun. There needs to be a counter for these mechanics, these additions make the balance worse for the defender.

We'd have to wait and see how this actually looks, but it sounds like you might be able to make a small core hauler which, even though it accelerates more slowly than a PvP ship, has a higher top speed so provided you can survive long enough (shields/armor/etc) you can eventually escape because the bigger PvP ship can't keep up with you.

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Will the 'Element Stacking Exploit Fix' actually only prevent people from using the element stacking exploit?  Because at the moment nearly all my ships complain and say they will be disabled due to this but none of them are using the element stacking exploit.

I'm 100% behind stopping people from using the actual exploit but I'm not going to mess about moving elements 1 pixel to the left because there was a bug in the game when I built a ship (or someone decided to tweak the bounding box or whatever) and the stacking exploit detector is too stupid to tell the difference between that and an actual exploit.  How hard is it to calculate the volume of overlap as a percentage of the element's volume and say 'things overlapping by < 5% are not stacked'.

Or if it can't be limited only to the people who used the exploit and actually got some advantage from that, don't do it because if you break 50% of the ships in the game then IMO the cure is far worse than the problem you're fixing.

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Right... where to start...

@NQ-Wanderer : A bit more info on the nature of how the pvp rebalance / speed changes / stasis weapons / alien cores would allow players to provide feedback and or points of view on things that you may not have thought of. Sooner rather than later may subsequently make any potentially required changes of plan a bit less short-notice on the devs and less likely to outrage the player-base if you missed something big.

 

@The anti-pvp players: I am a mission-runner, I have run well over 100 missions solo in pvp space in a ship that wont win against a purpose-built pvp ship, never lost a ship, only been shot at twice (both relatively recent, both when I was being lazy about avoiding pirates).
-You can just watch radar and fly clear of the pipe, it isn't hard, you can avoid pvp entirely about 99% of the time doing this.
-Your cargo-heavy hauler will never outrun a purpose-built interceptor regardless of speed-caps.
-You can typically fit heavier than an interceptor and rely on your combined shield/hull hp to win the fight if you match their weapons.
-Your requested "security status" attribute would be more quickly achievable by banding together to put up a watch-list/bounty-board for the people/ships that attack you.
-If you don't want to use weapons, or make friends with/hire an escort or scout, or put in the 10 min of flying and maneuvering and watching radar to go around the pirates, or pay for the cells to warp past them, and still think you deserve the rewards of flying through pvp space without substantial risk of being a pvp target, you may need to reconsider what you expect from an area the player-base at large refers to as "pvp-space".
-If you wish to discuss methods to avoid/overcome pirates in pvp space with me then DM me on discord and I will answer when I can, but don't expect a "push button to disable pvp" answer, you must expend some level or both time and resources, and everyone gets unlucky once in a while.

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6 hours ago, Taelessael said:

Right... where to start...

@NQ-Wanderer : A bit more info on the nature of how the pvp rebalance / speed changes / stasis weapons / alien cores would allow players to provide feedback and or points of view on things that you may not have thought of. Sooner rather than later may subsequently make any potentially required changes of plan a bit less short-notice on the devs and less likely to outrage the player-base if you missed something big.

 

@The anti-pvp players: I am a mission-runner, I have run well over 100 missions solo in pvp space in a ship that wont win against a purpose-built pvp ship, never lost a ship, only been shot at twice (both relatively recent, both when I was being lazy about avoiding pirates).
-You can just watch radar and fly clear of the pipe, it isn't hard, you can avoid pvp entirely about 99% of the time doing this.
-Your cargo-heavy hauler will never outrun a purpose-built interceptor regardless of speed-caps.
-You can typically fit heavier than an interceptor and rely on your combined shield/hull hp to win the fight if you match their weapons.
-Your requested "security status" attribute would be more quickly achievable by banding together to put up a watch-list/bounty-board for the people/ships that attack you.
-If you don't want to use weapons, or make friends with/hire an escort or scout, or put in the 10 min of flying and maneuvering and watching radar to go around the pirates, or pay for the cells to warp past them, and still think you deserve the rewards of flying through pvp space without substantial risk of being a pvp target, you may need to reconsider what you expect from an area the player-base at large refers to as "pvp-space".
-If you wish to discuss methods to avoid/overcome pirates in pvp space with me then DM me on discord and I will answer when I can, but don't expect a "push button to disable pvp" answer, you must expend some level or both time and resources, and everyone gets unlucky once in a while.

Good to see some very sensible comments from NQ.

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NQ-WANDERER: “If you don't want to use weapons, or make friends with/hire an escort or scout, or put in the 10 min of flying and maneuvering and watching radar to go around the pirates, or pay for the cells to warp past them, and still think you deserve the rewards of flying through pvp space without substantial risk of being a pvp target, you may need to reconsider what you expect from an area the player-base at large refers to as "pvp-space".”

 

 

One of the best comments I’ve read from NQ.

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3 minutes ago, Shredder said:

NQ-WANDERER: “If you don't want to use weapons, or make friends with/hire an escort or scout, or put in the 10 min of flying and maneuvering and watching radar to go around the pirates, or pay for the cells to warp past them, and still think you deserve the rewards of flying through pvp space without substantial risk of being a pvp target, you may need to reconsider what you expect from an area the player-base at large refers to as "pvp-space".”

 

 

One of the best comments I’ve read from NQ.

 

Did NQ make that quote tho? it seems like the guy just tagged NQ-Wanderer and said it.  Couldnt find where an NQ said it.

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10 hours ago, Namcigam said:

Nah it's called your going to run out of victims and have nothing to shoot at actually...Kind of like right now but more dramatic and more empty 

 

You dont even know whats going on in the game. You are literally crazy if you think we already have people to shoot at.  We don't. Hauler success rate is 99.9%.   The rest is a few encounters at pvp asteroids, that you can completely side step and do safe zone ones.  

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Its hilarious seeing the carebears in this thread.  Anytime NQ tries to put anything in the PvP zone are start on development its just complete whining.  Then making strawman arguments about "losing player base" and then just random assumptions about haulers having no counters.  You do have a counter, build a PVP ship with some cargo hold.  

 

The game is about choices. If you chose to build a defenseless hauler, that carries 40kt of weight.  You are gonna be always at a disadvantage if a pvp ship finds you. ALWAYS.  That was your choice.  Remeber there are safe zone missions if you cant handle this.

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15 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

Sounds like NQ thinks Players will flock to PVE content in PVP zones where the content may be ok, but there stil is no way to get away without engaging in PVP.. Feels like NQ has not learnt much from the Asteroids outside the safezones remaining mostly undiscovered every week.

 

Also.. "Alien core units" sets the expectation for NPC forces to arrive sooner or later..  We'll need to see the details here but at first glance I'd have to pass on this content

 

I think I'd agree.. I tried two asteroids and lost two ships... second partly due to lag. The fact that once engaged you're in a fist fight with no opportunity to warp is a killer... it would be better to have the ability to warp away from a fight if you have too. Asteroids are basically solo ventures, but anyone scouting for pvp targets will be doing that in pairs or gangs and in L core ships... So the advantage is never going to be with the miner in an M Core hoping to pick up a few rares. If 'might is right' rules the game then were just going to end up wih a blob fest where single players never succeed. There needs to be some form of escape beyond just engine power without making it unfair on the hunters. If alien cores work like the asteroid system then it'll be more of the same.

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2 minutes ago, HamyMac said:

The fact that once engaged you're in a fist fight with no opportunity to warp is a killer... it would be better to have the ability to warp away from a fight if you have too.

 

Once again, Proof carebears want an ON/OFF pvp I win button.  Once people engage in the pvp zone, it makes sense the VAST majority of a time there is a winner and a loser.  Just a lot of people seem to be sore losers.  You say GF and move on, and get better. 

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8 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

Once again, Proof carebears want an ON/OFF pvp I win button.  Once people engage in the pvp zone, it makes sense the VAST majority of a time there is a winner and a loser.  Just a lot of people seem to be sore losers.  You say GF and move on, and get better. 

 

Here we are again with the one sides simplistic "I want me pewpew" point of view.

At present PVP is in a terrible state, it has no recourse, no counters and no value to risk running into an engagement UNLESS you are looking for such engagement.  "bring guns, bring friends, take the lloong way around" is not a counter, having the ability to break a target lock, have the option to make your ship less detectable or harder to lock in the first place are.

Most players I am pretty sure are not against PVP being an integral part of the game. Most players also understand and respect the chance of running the risk of encountering an engagement. Those of use who are in that corner though do feel that there is currently no value in taking the risk as there is no way to counter running into an engagement. If you get locked, you are dead.

 

"We" do not come out to "PVP space" because we are "carebears" or because we are afraid to do so, we do not come out because in DU, the risk is simply at a level that there is no point and no value in taking it.

 

What is needed to open up the game is ways for "us" to mitigate the risk of running into  "them", not to eliminate it. Your arguments are just as one sided as the one you comment on here. And I am pretty sure what @HamyMac is actually saying here is that "we" should have the means to try and release the grip "they" have and get away. And that means having a chance to break the lock and warp off, miond you and before you go and quote out of context again, I said A CHANCE here, not a guarantee.

Maybe, instead of polarizing in every sinngle response you write, you should try entering a discussion to make sure you understand what someone is saying correctly and then argue your point instead of just going off on an irant where you just throw insults around. That really does nothing but invalidate anything you say outright.

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8 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Pretty sure PVP will remain a lose-lose in DU, so I don't really care about this update.

Totally agree, with mining units, asteroids in PvP are no longer relevant (just look how much asteroids discovered in PvP on Friday). Having that I see no point on grabbing even more resources from alien core unit, there has to be more than just resources, personally I'd prefer to see some bonuses and boosts rather then plain resources, in this case capturing an Alien core gives you something unique, something you cannot get in PvE, that would be a good reason to fight.

 

Also I do not see where this update brings something DU desperately needs - a gameplay. Like for now every aspect of the game excluding building and hand mining is automated or automatable. And this makes the game extremely pointless, first you having fun to build something and automate its functions, then you use it for AFK gameplay where you look at the same picture for several hours.

 

PvP rebalancing looks promising. It gives opportunity to search for new meta, to experiment with tactics, to look for opportunities for XS/S cores to be useful in territory warfare.

 

All in all, the update success depends on Alien Core implementation.

If Alien Cores gives good reason to fight and opportunity for every kind of player to be involved in territory warfare - the update will be just excellent.

If Alien Core is basically an autominable asteroids and only huge orgs can have access to them and only on Saturdays - I'd wait until things changed.

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Alien asteroids 100% need something unique spawned as a conflict driver. I'm curious about the defence mechanics... would have to be a reinforcement timer of sorts, otherwise it'll just be log off raiding. 

 

Specifics on effects on stasis based on core sizes would be interesting, or just like eve and its a percentage. 

 

Looking deeper into this, its a step to fix economy, there is a real risk of getting caught running missions/transporting in pvp zone, currently its minimal. 

 

No mention of tracking or to hit percentage adjustments. So realistically itll still be easy to kill an xs and s with and L core. 

Edited by Pascal_Mage
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17 hours ago, Taelessael said:

@The anti-pvp players:

 

There are very few if any of those. This is not about being "anti-PVP" at all, which mostly missed/overlooked by many and thus is part of the problem

 

 

17 hours ago, Taelessael said:

I am a mission-runner,

 

 

-You can just watch radar and fly clear of the pipe, it isn't hard, you can avoid pvp entirely about 99% of the time doing this.

 

Your mission objective is not IN PVP space, you need to travel through it. That is a MASSIVE difference from content IN PVP space which really is only viable for those that choose to pewpew and as such becomes not a goal in itself but just a means to fight over. It overshoots the entire concept of content like this as it will remain mostly untouced, just like asteroids are outside of the safezones.

 

It's pretty much a bone NQ is throwing at PVP focused players and wil lbe ignored by anyone else which limits the function and value of this content.

 

 

 

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I like what I was reading about Athena. Curious about what was not said, ha ha ha!

Especially the Space Market(s?) are interesting. Would love to see screenshots! Will they be in Safe Space, too, or only in PVP Space?

Also excited about the graphic improvements. Greetings and best wishes to the entire NQ crew!

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

 

Here we are again with the one sides simplistic "I want me pewpew" point of view.

At present PVP is in a terrible state, it has no recourse, no counters and no value to risk running into an engagement UNLESS you are looking for such engagement.  "bring guns, bring friends, take the lloong way around" is not a counter, having the ability to break a target lock, have the option to make your ship less detectable or harder to lock in the first place are.

Most players I am pretty sure are not against PVP being an integral part of the game. Most players also understand and respect the chance running the risk of encountering an engagement. Those of use who are in that corner though do feel that there is currently no vlaue in taking the risk as there is no way to counter running into an engagement. If you get locked, you are dead.

 

"We" do not come out to "PVP space" because we are "carebears" or because we are afraid to do so, we do not come out because in DU, the risk is simply at a level that there is no point and no value in taking it.

 

What is needed to open up the game is ways for "us" to mitigate the risk of running into  "them", not to eliminate it. Your arguments are just as one sided as the one you comment on here. And I am pretty sure what @HamyMac is actually saying here is that "we" should have the means to try and release the grip "they" have and get away. And that means having a chance to break the lock and warp off, miond you and before you go and quote out of context again, I said A CHANCE here, not a guarantee.

Maybe, instead of polarizing in every sinngle response you write, you should try entering a discussion to make sure you understand what someone is saying correctly and then argue your point instead of just going off on an irant where you just throw insults around. That really does nothing but invalidate anything you say outright.

 

im not reading any of that, you just ramble for the sake of it.  You arent a pvper.  all you guys say the same thing "counters" but in the end, you will still die because you arent pvpers.   All haulers die in eve when caught, its the way it has always been.  The counters are in not getting caught in the first place.  Deal with it, this is the pvp zone. 

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2 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

when caught

 

Keywords .. and in DU, outside of going aroun dthe loooooong way, the risk of "getting caught" is far too great to be worth the risk and the new content seem sto be right up there with asteroids.

I am not a PVPer, correct. But then again. DU is not a "PVP game" where it is central to the game, so expecting anyone to come join the pewpew club is at best unrealistic.

In the end, if NQ doe snot properly design these mechanics, all they wil see happen is the vast majority of the payerbase reside and never leave the safezone as there is no point or reason.

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With CSS and Shields, no one was flying big ships anymore anyway. These speed changes are the final nail in the coffin for us that liked big ships. For the Alien cores, NQ woke my interest. Sadly I think the result will be the same that we had with asteroids. That with plenty of ores from Mining Units people have no real reason to mine asteroids.

 

I don't know how hard is to code a few Ai ships that patrol Helios, have some nice loot and the most important part that fire back and be fearsome. Because I like Combat in DU, it is a total 3d Space with retro burn physics something I always wanted and still enjoy. My problem is that I get combat not very often and that is frustrating because me more a fighter type of player than a builder or trader.

 

Back to the speed changes. I hope NQ can implement these with not making for us that haul 20kt from time to time, that to a real problem regarding that the speed has to do with mass. My hope for PvP balance was that Shield would let pass lets say 20% of the damage to make that you have to fly a Nano or be busted go away. Also that Element ships grew a bit of voxels. Instead, the game goes in the opposite direction. 

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20 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

I get the impression NQ has abandoned AvA.  I hope not, but thats the feeling I get.

 

Yeah I think they mentioned in the past that it will not come before release. I think it will come eventually but I wish it was sooner.

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