Add counters to the current PVP meta (plz)

[Shaman]

I think the real problem with this current pvp system is there are no counters to anything. This makes it very hard to balance every weapon, core size and shield size since the only stat that matters is pure killing efficiency. Even with the new proposed pvp changes, this problem still occurs because the only thing that will lead to victory is having more ships, and more firepower. Strategy is almost nonexistent as well, as apart from piloting skills each battle is nothing more than a damage slugfest. Even if Precision guns become less broken, and cross section doesn't have as much of a play in combat anymore, people are just going to move to the next best damage dealers and nothing will change (like it has before).

 

However, If you take the most meta combat ship right now, and make a counter to it which beats it very easily (but is less effective in other scenarios) it makes combat much more strategic and interesting, as what ships you take to a fight determines your outcome instead of simply stats and damage output. Hell, this counter could be extremely OP at destroying the current meta ships, but as long as this new 'counter' ship also has a massive weakness, take cannons for example, then the pvp meta will be much easier to manage and be much more exciting.

 

Its literally just rock paper scissors but for DU PvP. rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper etc. Its super simple, makes the meta much more complex and is way easier to balance. its been done in many games before and I dont see any reason not to add it to DU's pvp.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Shaman

[Namcigam]

34 minutes ago, Shaman said:

I think the real problem with this current pvp system is there are no counters to anything. This makes it very hard to balance every weapon, core size and shield size since the only stat that matters is pure killing efficiency. Even with the new proposed pvp changes, this problem still occurs because the only thing that will lead to victory is having more ships, and more firepower. Strategy is almost nonexistent as well, as apart from piloting skills each battle is nothing more than a damage slugfest. Even if Precision guns become less broken, and cross section doesn't have as much of a play in combat anymore, people are just going to move to the next best damage dealers and nothing will change (like it has before).

 

However, If you take the most meta combat ship right now, and make a counter to it which beats it very easily (but is less effective in other scenarios) it makes combat much more strategic and interesting, as what ships you take to a fight determines your outcome instead of simply stats and damage output. Hell, this counter could be extremely OP at destroying the current meta ships, but as long as this new 'counter' ship also has a massive weakness, take cannons for example, then the pvp meta will be much easier to manage and be much more exciting.

 

Its literally just rock paper scissors but for DU PvP. rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper etc. Its super simple, makes the meta much more complex and is way easier to balance. its been done in many games before and I dont see any reason not to add it to DU's pvp.

 

When hunting rabbits they have a pretty good chance of surviving but we do not. 

[blundertwink]

18 hours ago, Shaman said:

Even with the new proposed pvp changes, this problem still occurs because the only thing that will lead to victory is having more ships, and more firepower. Strategy is almost nonexistent as well, as apart from piloting skills each battle is nothing more than a damage slugfest.

 

I feel like this is an issue with most open world PvP games -- because the "strategy" is to always outgun the enemy. This tends to be how it goes in all games without structured PvP.

 

Much like real life, the correct strategy is to pick fights you know you can win vs. engaging in "fair" fights. That makes it boring and uneven for everyone, but is sort of human nature. 

 

This is why MMOs have structured PvP, instead. It isn't as realistic, but it makes for a more interesting game. This is one reason I hate when there's too much focus on realism. Realism doesn't always (or often) make for good game structures. 

 

In my opinion, there's no way to balance fully open-world PvP -- especially on a single-shard system where each ship is custom. Symmetrical, fair fights will likely be an accident vs. being the norm...no matter how they tweak weapons and defenses. 

[Knight-Sevy]

They need to categorize ships.

That's good, we already have 4:
- XS
-S
-M
- L

Now there are already stats on which we can play:
- Speed / Acceleration
- Chance to hit
- Shield
- Hull (voxel)
- Firepower / gunner

A partial equilibrium exists on certain statistics:
- For firepower, you cannot put an L weapon on an XS ship
- The hull, you cannot put unlimited voxel because it influences the speed / acceleration of your ship and there is the CCS

Now the statistics that are not balanced at all:

- Speed, all ships can reach Vmax too easily. NQ to create weapon categories with high tracking that can be really used only during the fall of this Vmax. This is certainly the first major point to modify.
Need to put a limit on the number and size of engines on a ship as well.

- Chances of hitting. Second big black dot. I'll break it down into 3 points:

=> You easily get 15-20% hit chance on an XS ship with L weapons. It's just undesirable as balancing. Weapon L or weapon M should be unable to hit an XS. Leave the role of S weapons to make anti-hunters.

=> A low cross section ship can easily have a 50% chance of being hit. This multiplies his life points by 2 compared to an opponent. The shield is a really overpowered defensive object, the voxels currently fail to compensate. It's a no match if you're not nano in a fight.

=> Currently the hit chance is calculated on the cross section. This is, in my opinion, a terrible mistake in game design. The real interest of the game is to be able to make any ship visual. This limits players to making rectangles. It's really not a good thing.

=> The shield, it is in my opinion too powerful compared to the voxel. But above all, it should not be allowed for an M ship to use an L shield. Each size of core must have its shield and it must be balanced from this.

Resume:
Contrary to many people's fear, categorizing ships will not make the game any less interesting. This will open a lot of doors for strategy.
Currently without any limits you are only looking to have the biggest cannon with the longest range and the best defense.
We are only looking for a single optimum.
 

Thinking exercise:
If the L ships during a combat phase have a very reduced speed (jellies space? in space territory warfare), they can catch up with an L ship to be within range and they do not get two shots.
 

So you force your opponent to use S weapons on his core to defend himself or to also use fighters or S ships which will have the role of killing these fighters before they inflict too much damage.
 

And if you know that your opponent tends to play in a swarm of XS hunters because he has a numerical advantage. So maybe we can imagine an L core with no main weapon but only S weapon batteries, thus taking advantage of the superior armor of the L core to effectively destroy all these hunters. Of course at the expense of its speed, which could open the door to an enemy countermeasure.
 

A whole strategy is then put in place. We no longer have a one-way PvP. But actions where you will or will not have the right type of ship to oppose your opponent.

 

[VandelayIndustries]

12 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

They need to categorize ships.

That's good, we already have 4:
- XS
-S
-M
- L

Now there are already stats on which we can play:
- Speed / Acceleration
- Chance to hit
- Shield
- Hull (voxel)
- Firepower / gunner

A partial equilibrium exists on certain statistics:
- For firepower, you cannot put an L weapon on an XS ship
- The hull, you cannot put unlimited voxel because it influences the speed / acceleration of your ship and there is the CCS

Now the statistics that are not balanced at all:

- Speed, all ships can reach Vmax too easily. NQ to create weapon categories with high tracking that can be really used only during the fall of this Vmax. This is certainly the first major point to modify.
Need to put a limit on the number and size of engines on a ship as well.

- Chances of hitting. Second big black dot. I'll break it down into 3 points:

=> You easily get 15-20% hit chance on an XS ship with L weapons. It's just undesirable as balancing. Weapon L or weapon M should be unable to hit an XS. Leave the role of S weapons to make anti-hunters.

=> A low cross section ship can easily have a 50% chance of being hit. This multiplies his life points by 2 compared to an opponent. The shield is a really overpowered defensive object, the voxels currently fail to compensate. It's a no match if you're not nano in a fight.

=> Currently the hit chance is calculated on the cross section. This is, in my opinion, a terrible mistake in game design. The real interest of the game is to be able to make any ship visual. This limits players to making rectangles. It's really not a good thing.

=> The shield, it is in my opinion too powerful compared to the voxel. But above all, it should not be allowed for an M ship to use an L shield. Each size of core must have its shield and it must be balanced from this.

Resume:
Contrary to many people's fear, categorizing ships will not make the game any less interesting. This will open a lot of doors for strategy.
Currently without any limits you are only looking to have the biggest cannon with the longest range and the best defense.
We are only looking for a single optimum.
 

Thinking exercise:
If the L ships during a combat phase have a very reduced speed (jellies space? in space territory warfare), they can catch up with an L ship to be within range and they do not get two shots.
 

So you force your opponent to use S weapons on his core to defend himself or to also use fighters or S ships which will have the role of killing these fighters before they inflict too much damage.
 

And if you know that your opponent tends to play in a swarm of XS hunters because he has a numerical advantage. So maybe we can imagine an L core with no main weapon but only S weapon batteries, thus taking advantage of the superior armor of the L core to effectively destroy all these hunters. Of course at the expense of its speed, which could open the door to an enemy countermeasure.
 

A whole strategy is then put in place. We no longer have a one-way PvP. But actions where you will or will not have the right type of ship to oppose your opponent.

 

 

I've been saying this forever, without limitations and "classes" of ships, you can't distinguish them into different roles in pvp.  Without different roles you get everyone building into 1 or 2 best ways of ship performance. Fly the fastest, do as much damage as you can, and do it as far as you can. That leads to bland gameplay in pvp.  Take EvE, you can be a battleship doing massive dps in a fleet, you can also be a frigate tackling enemy ships, or a logi ship that heals Friendly's.  You can also be a neut ship where you neut out your enemies capacitor (the life blood of all active modules and even some guns). And all those ships do DIFFERENT TOP SPEEDS.  We need not copy eve, but we need their concept, different "roles" in pvp.