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Underhook

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I still have a couple of weeks left on my subscription but just cant force myself to log in for even one more time.

 

I think its the tax that has ruined the game for me.  Probably that and the lowish player numbers.

 

Currently all I have time for is calibrating MU, picking up ore and delivering ore to market.  I had 52 mil before demeter and now I have 32 mil.  Thats a lot of boring work to not even get back to my starting point.

 

The DU community has been great and players are very helpful.  Some aspects of the game like ship and base building are really good.  IMO it just nee3ds to be turned into a game.

 

Can you have my stuff?   I have made all but 2 territories into HQ.  I think one of them will have a container a couple of advanced MU and a bit of ore.

 

I might come back if the game ever gets a full release.  

 

Good luck to a great player base and to the devs.  I do hope you can save the game.

 

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23 minutes ago, Underhook said:

I still have a couple of weeks left on my subscription but just cant force myself to log in for even one more time.

 

I think its the tax that has ruined the game for me. Probably that and the lowish player numbers.

 

Currently all I have time for is calibrating MU, picking up ore and delivering ore to market. I had 52 mil before demeter and now I have 32 mil. Thats a lot of boring work to not even get back to my starting point.

 

The DU community has been great and players are very helpful. Some aspects of the game like ship and base building are really good. IMO it just nee3ds to be turned into a game.

 

Can you have my stuff? I have made all but 2 territories into HQ. I think one of them will have a container a couple of advanced MU and a bit of ore.

 

I might come back if the game ever gets a full release.

 

Good luck to a great player base and to the devs. I do hope you can save the game.

 

hey mate.. you looks like not read news.. 
take it.. this is special for you: 
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/24266-devblog-panacea-remedies-on-the-way/

now you can 1 time in week update your MU

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3 hours ago, Feriniya said:

hey mate.. you looks like not read news.. 
take it.. this is special for you: 
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/24266-devblog-panacea-remedies-on-the-way/

now you can 1 time in week update your MU

You are correct.  I did not read that news.

Its good to see that they are attempting to repair this mechanic.

I feel that the tax will still be an issue for many people, because:  what are players able to do that it is so exciting they wish to pay tax for the chance to do it?

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56 minutes ago, Underhook said:

You are correct.  I did not read that news.

Its good to see that they are attempting to repair this mechanic.

I feel that the tax will still be an issue for many people, because:  what are players able to do that it is so exciting they wish to pay tax for the chance to do it?

I agree this lines up with the other elephant in room, There is nothing in this game that's makes it worth risking your ship and your cargo. The idea is that we are paying taxes for the privilege to get a trickle of ore that is high maintenance, it's a terrible deal...Maximum effort minimal returns. 

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In any case, to be honest, I still don’t understand what the problem is with taxes, what is 1 million and what is 500k .. this is just ridiculous in my opinion? 500k is even collected by stones under your feet in 20-30 minutes .. even without upcoming skills to collect. That is, in general, with a bare ass, without having anything behind you, you can pay a week of tax in 20-30 minutes .. I still don’t understand :)
 

That is, usually if there is a tile, it gives something, but when you sell goods on the market, you pay % for the transaction, and this % sometimes reaches much larger amounts. Many times large sums. And then 500k which, well, I don’t understand you, gentlemen, I can’t understand, it’s just a ridiculous amount even for a beginner

Just for entering the game, even without doing anything at all, it’s 3 days to enter, that is, you don’t even need to play, you don’t need to do anything .. just come in and get 2 tiles for a week for a week just by entering the game.
 

Also, don't forget that there are headquarters tiles that do not require payment, if the sanctuary tile does not require payment either. in sum, this is an opportunity to have 6 tiles without payment, is it really not enough? .. And if you mine it’s so funny, the tiles pay for themselves without any problems 2-3 times than taxes .. and now it’s 3-4 times .. because taxes are 2 times less done.

That mean.. you can get 1 sanct + 5 HQ tile + 2 from enter the game tile.. so total 8 tiles.. guys.. EIGHT!!! and no need to do anything.. just enter to game.. so what is problem? why ppl still crying.. 

I make base for total 1 tile.. 80+ L core.. for over 1 year.. but is 1.. you can have 8 without anyyyyy..  sorry guys but i think who talk about taxes.. just dont wanna do any.. and wanna moer and more casual game.. cose thats really strange.. devs give to every one 8 tiles.. free.. and ppl still crying and LEFT game becouse of this.. omg

Maybe i cannot understand some thing in this game? :)

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57 minutes ago, Feriniya said:

In any case, to be honest, I still don’t understand what the problem is with taxes, what is 1 million and what is 500k .. this is just ridiculous in my opinion? 500k is even collected by stones under your feet in 20-30 minutes .. even without upcoming skills to collect. That is, in general, with a bare ass, without having anything behind you, you can pay a week of tax in 20-30 minutes .. I still don’t understand :)
 

That is, usually if there is a tile, it gives something, but when you sell goods on the market, you pay % for the transaction, and this % sometimes reaches much larger amounts. Many times large sums. And then 500k which, well, I don’t understand you, gentlemen, I can’t understand, it’s just a ridiculous amount even for a beginner

Just for entering the game, even without doing anything at all, it’s 3 days to enter, that is, you don’t even need to play, you don’t need to do anything .. just come in and get 2 tiles for a week for a week just by entering the game.
 

Also, don't forget that there are headquarters tiles that do not require payment, if the sanctuary tile does not require payment either. in sum, this is an opportunity to have 6 tiles without payment, is it really not enough? .. And if you mine it’s so funny, the tiles pay for themselves without any problems 2-3 times than taxes .. and now it’s 3-4 times .. because taxes are 2 times less done.

That mean.. you can get 1 sanct + 5 HQ tile + 2 from enter the game tile.. so total 8 tiles.. guys.. EIGHT!!! and no need to do anything.. just enter to game.. so what is problem? why ppl still crying.. 

I make base for total 1 tile.. 80+ L core.. for over 1 year.. but is 1.. you can have 8 without anyyyyy..  sorry guys but i think who talk about taxes.. just dont wanna do any.. and wanna moer and more casual game.. cose thats really strange.. devs give to every one 8 tiles.. free.. and ppl still crying and LEFT game becouse of this.. omg

Maybe i cannot understand some thing in this game? :)

Well maybe your very fast.  All I know is this.  Since Demeter all I have done is set up and calibrate Mu's, collect ore, take it to market and sell it.  At this point I have about 35 million ( I went down to about 5 million).  I had 52 million before Demeter.  

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I don't care about how many cores or quanta the other players have.

All I care about is the ability to build my stuff when and how I want, and be creative and free to experiment.

And for this simple reason Demeter fails at all counts, since grind and forced menial tasks is and has always been the antithesis of creativity.

 

That's why I stopped mining (old way), and that's why I am now in the process of burning out the same way I did back then with MU's. And collecting surface ore has never ever even been a consideration (did my share of that type of game play like 15 years ago, and there are countless games that does this MUCH better for those into it).  And so with regard to creativity the tax/MU system is even worse (more grind for less resources, and constant pressure to do certain tasks) then the old mining ever was. And so the end effect is that I stop playing DU for long periods, just waiting around looking for any glimmer of hope that here will be a game worth playing in the future.

 

And if the silent majority of players where fine with Demeter, why is it then that we are now getting an unscheduled and immediate emergency update to tax and MU's after NQ looked at logs and player patterns? And looking at the changes we are not talking about minor adjustments here, since those are clear 'ohh shit, let's try and fix this' amounts of change..

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3 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

I don't care about how many cores or quanta the other players have.

All I care about is the ability to build my stuff when and how I want, and be creative and free to experiment.

And for this simple reason Demeter fails at all counts, since grind and forced menial tasks is and has always been the antithesis of creativity.

 

That's why I stopped mining (old way), and that's why I am now in the process of burning out the same way I did back then with MU's. And collecting surface ore has never ever even been a consideration (did my share of that type of game play like 15 years ago, and there are countless games that does this MUCH better for those into it). And so with regard to creativity the tax/MU system is even worse (more grind for less resources, and constant pressure to do certain tasks) then the old mining ever was. And so the end effect is that I stop playing DU for long periods, just waiting around looking for any glimmer of hope that here will be a game worth playing in the future.

 

And if the silent majority of players where fine with Demeter, why is it then that we are now getting an unscheduled and immediate emergency update to tax and MU's after NQ looked at logs and player patterns? And looking at the changes we are not talking about minor adjustments here, since those are clear 'ohh shit, let's try and fix this' amounts of change..

maybe you are right, I can’t, for example, check all the players’ logs, for example, as above, who for some reason lose money .. But the fact that just a lot of ore appeared on the market makes it clear about something. That there is TOO much ore .. And this is not clear to me.
 

But with the current update, yes, IMHO it is now more convenient than even burrowing was. Now it is quite possible to support and calibrate 42 miners only once a week. For me, this is more than acceptable, to do nothing for a week, to engage in creativity and my own questions, and recalibrate once a week and get my ore in essence in afk. After the current changes.

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3 hours ago, Underhook said:

Well maybe your very fast. All I know is this. Since Demeter all I have done is set up and calibrate Mu's, collect ore, take it to market and sell it. At this point I have about 35 million ( I went down to about 5 million). I had 52 million before Demeter.

Perhaps you just chose bad tiles (poor) or something else.. unfortunately I find it difficult to answer what is going wrong with you.. but if this is how you say on your side, then this is really bad. Even though I don't understand.

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8 hours ago, Underhook said:

You are correct.  I did not read that news.

Its good to see that they are attempting to repair this mechanic.

I feel that the tax will still be an issue for many people, because:  what are players able to do that it is so exciting they wish to pay tax for the chance to do it?

They also said that you will be able to run Industry on offline tiles where you don't pay tax, so now the only reason to pay tax is when you use MU and if you don't want to - there's always asteroids. Besides, they added lots of charges that you can save up and only calibrate like once a week. With the new tax its profitable to not even collect the surface ore of play the minigame (which will be sped up). tbh the next really fixed the tediousness of the system. 

Now we just need an ore sink for all that ore

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yes... no more searching for ore under my constructs. no more worrying about wasted charges, no more worrying about making enough to pay tax. this helps a lot.


How does inactive tiles work? I thought that if you left an org tile inactive it becomes abandoned and can be claimed by someone else.

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6 hours ago, Underhook said:

Well maybe your very fast.  All I know is this.  Since Demeter all I have done is set up and calibrate Mu's, collect ore, take it to market and sell it.  At this point I have about 35 million ( I went down to about 5 million).  I had 52 million before Demeter.  

 That's odd... Oour org has 7 T1 tiles on Madis that make very roughly 300k per day income (15k x 20h per unit) for a couple of minutes work, significantly more if we play the minigame.  So a week, each tile generates 2.1kk or there abouts... currently we were spending half on tax, meaning we were generating >7M per week. It's not big money but it certainly wasn't loss making... with 4 MUs per tile and earning only about 6 charges per day (4hr per charge) one player could only keep 3 tiles at full efficiency due to 48hr limit without playing the nasty minigame. Now with 5x the charges and 50% extra calibration limit, one player can keep 22.5 tiles at full pelt without even having to watch paint dry. Fly, pick up, apply base calibs, return.

Moreover, if we are desperate for cash, we can play the minigame, have the ore appear right there at the foot of the mining unit where it belongs and use our surface mining specialty to mine it probably twice as quickly fully trained as we are now.

Add this to half taxes and we are at a far less oppressive system.... 50 charges full load? That means we don't have to log in every 40 hours to tickle NQ's scrotum.


However, bear in mind that most people who actually say "cheerio" and attempt to leave via the "Dramatic Exit" rather than the secret under-the-bar escape hatch tend to stick around anyway, so don't feel you actually have to leave after this thread. We understand this game can be an exercise in frustration but this does seem to address some solid gripes.

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12 hours ago, Feriniya said:

hey mate.. you looks like not read news.. 
take it.. this is special for you: 
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/24266-devblog-panacea-remedies-on-the-way/

now you can 1 time in week update your MU

 

This is good news, but also far, far too slow to roll out. These are tiny, few-minute balance tweaks that should have been done before Demeter dropped or shortly after deployment. Of course people will quit in the interim, do you expect them to keep paying a sub? 

 

Again, NQ needs more practice on how to support their game as a real product...seeing as how they are charging real money for it and aiming to market and grow the game soon.

 

They're still running it as a closed alpha where there's no sense of urgency at all...where players "need to understand" that their process is trial and error instead of plan and execute, so "be patient"...and pay them their sub money in the meantime. 

 

These tiny changes in calibration charges and tax rate didn't need almost 2 months in development. They should have been pushed a week or two after the deployment (or far more logically, before Demeter rolled out at all!) 

 

My take on this change is that it's a massive failure in leadership and timing -- another instance where NQ wants to run this game like it's 7 years ago in closed alpha where prototyping a major feature for a couple of months is more understandable. 

 

Again, if NQ thinks we complain too much, they don't understand what it means to support an MMO at release...even if NQ can attract a million people tomorrow, their company currently isn't capable of supporting the product in a professional way and 95% of those customers would churn. 

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9 hours ago, blundertwink said:

 

This is good news, but also far, far too slow to roll out. These are tiny, few-minute balance tweaks that should have been done before Demeter dropped or shortly after deployment. Of course people will quit in the interim, do you expect them to keep paying a sub?

 

Again, NQ needs more practice on how to support their game as a real product...seeing as how they are charging real money for it and aiming to market and grow the game soon.

 

They're still running it as a closed alpha where there's no sense of urgency at all...where players "need to understand" that their process is trial and error instead of plan and execute, so "be patient"...and pay them their sub money in the meantime.

 

These tiny changes in calibration charges and tax rate didn't need almost 2 months in development. They should have been pushed a week or two after the deployment (or far more logically, before Demeter rolled out at all!)

 

My take on this change is that it's a massive failure in leadership and timing -- another instance where NQ wants to run this game like it's 7 years ago in closed alpha where prototyping a major feature for a couple of months is more understandable.

 

Again, if NQ thinks we complain too much, they don't understand what it means to support an MMO at release...even if NQ can attract a million people tomorrow, their company currently isn't capable of supporting the product in a professional way and 95% of those customers would churn.

With this I wholeheartedly agree.
 

Regarding the timing, the point is not that they have been doing and working on these changes for a long time, they collect statistics before making changes, and statistics require sampling by time, at least 1-2 months, which is why the update does not come as quickly as we would like . That is, the question is not even that they react for a long time, this is normal in this case (collecting statistics takes time), but that they have no experience, and they initially make many mistakes and do most by trial and error .. as you above and they said.

And with the plan of trial and error, and they take money for it - I completely agree. You are 100% right here.
 

But alas .. what to do, we all came here and understood that the plans are huge, and the company is small and with a small budget, and even without experience in the gaming industry .. so what was happening was obvious from the very beginning, it just didn’t need to be built magic locks in the head of the players and take a sober look at the situation, so as not to be surprised later .. But what we have is what we have. Sometimes I don’t understand at all how they stay afloat .. but God bless them and I hope they still gain experience and get out of this situation.

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12 hours ago, Feriniya said:

Regarding the timing, the point is not that they have been doing and working on these changes for a long time, they collect statistics before making changes, and statistics require sampling by time, at least 1-2 months, which is why the update does not come as quickly as we would like .

I agree about needing time to collect statistics. But that is not really the problem here.

You have to remember that DU has been available for players for more then 4 years now, and there has been A LOT of feedback from players during this time. But even so NQ still keeps making the same obvious and totally avoidable mistakes and weird priorities for features to implement.

 

And this has been happening to such a degree that there are certain sentences that NQ often use, that are now considered oxymorons by the community.

 

- We hear you guys

- improve communication and listen to community feedback

- Early version of feature that will be improved later

- roadmap

etc.

 

So for DU to change for the better, it is NQ that first has to change.. drastically. And I still don't see any signs of this happening. Even after the latest Panacea promises, it still is business as usual with maybe one or two posts more then usual on the forums and definitively not any kind of two-way communication.

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On 1/25/2022 at 12:22 PM, Feriniya said:

Perhaps you just chose bad tiles (poor) or something else.. unfortunately I find it difficult to answer what is going wrong with you.. but if this is how you say on your side, then this is really bad. Even though I don't understand.

 

The reason is quite simple (at least from where I sit): perception

People like rewards, not punishments, and you would need a ludicrous supply of "suspension of disbelief" to ever see paying taxes as a rewarding experience.

 

Just think about it. If energy system were in place, it would still be borderline work. And yet, that would be deemed acceptable by many.

It's the difference between a rewarding activity and a punishing one. 

 

The irony here is that if they had a spun a tale (lore) around it and given an in-game justification for the system, the fallout would have been much smaller. The idea of taxation makes sense on the main planet, as long as it goes towards supporting some service that provides value/fun, and yet it makes little sense on the fringe areas where law may not even apply.

 

A "problem" is an opportunity to develop a system further, not a dust-mite to be bludgeoned to death with a sledgehammer :) 

 

 

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I don't understand how you can do negtaive business with the calibrations, unless you haven't understood the system behind it.

You get 3 areas that are adjacent to each other, so you get +20% for all three areas.
Then you just set up your MiningUnits (Basic-MiningUnit-L, maybe the one for T2 or T3 with a lot of luck).

As a rule, you can then mine enough on Alioth to pay your taxes, as well as build up a cushion, and still have ores left over to use for building or to exchange for other ores.

For your current areas, I had to look at simply mining all the T1 there, or you can simply make headquarters out of the areas, put up to five and you're covered.

 

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I hate the rate Mu

On 1/24/2022 at 9:14 PM, Underhook said:

I still have a couple of weeks left on my subscription but just cant force myself to log in for even one more time.

 

I think its the tax that has ruined the game for me.  Probably that and the lowish player numbers.

 

Currently all I have time for is calibrating MU, picking up ore and delivering ore to market.  I had 52 mil before demeter and now I have 32 mil.  Thats a lot of boring work to not even get back to my starting point.

 

The DU community has been great and players are very helpful.  Some aspects of the game like ship and base building are really good.  IMO it just nee3ds to be turned into a game.

 

Can you have my stuff?   I have made all but 2 territories into HQ.  I think one of them will have a container a couple of advanced MU and a bit of ore.

 

I might come back if the game ever gets a full release.  

 

Good luck to a great player base and to the devs.  I do hope you can save the game.

 

I’m having a hard time with the state of the game two I also had about 50 mill I’m down two about 5 I refuse two pay a mill or 500000 for tier one or 2 so I went back two sactuery 

I am waiting two see if they can fix this I think they need two turn up MU rate honestly I just wish they would roll back two the old mining I can’t even work on my base with the amount of ore I’m geting the only thing I liked about this game was the building  I thought this game was a crafting building game I guess not at this point star base is doing better with the astroyed belt 

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2 hours ago, Zireaa said:

I hate the rate Mu

I’m having a hard time with the state of the game two I also had about 50 mill I’m down two about 5 I refuse two pay a mill or 500000 for tier one or 2 so I went back two sactuery 

I am waiting two see if they can fix this I think they need two turn up MU rate honestly I just wish they would roll back two the old mining I can’t even work on my base with the amount of ore I’m geting the only thing I liked about this game was the building  I thought this game was a crafting building game I guess not at this point star base is doing better with the astroyed belt 


With the new changes it should be easier for you to calibrate if you don't login daily but do so weekly. Also with the next update Industry running will be free, you won't need to pay taxes for industry. Personally all I do is build and then sometimes pvp and buy everything from the market with the money I get from selling my builds. This removes the hassle of having MU's and Industry but I still have MU's to help my org.

My advice would be to think why you're using MU's. Do you convert the ore into Honeycomb at your factory? Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy the materials from the market with the current ore prices? Besides, Asteroids exist and are empty of players now (and use the old mining mechanic) because the vast majority of players have too much ore. If you don't like MU's - don't use them.

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@Underhook Why do you lock yourself in mining stuff? You have enough amount of quanta to build/buy ship and do some transportation missions.... Take a look to "Radar equipment" and "Industry Unit Parts" Aphelia missions, for example. It's Alioth <-> Thades routes, reward is 950k. ~One hour of space flying in Safe zone space and you've done your weekly tax for one tile... 

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3 hours ago, Koriandah said:


With the new changes it should be easier for you to calibrate if you don't login daily but do so weekly. Also with the next update Industry running will be free, you won't need to pay taxes for industry. Personally all I do is build and then sometimes pvp and buy everything from the market with the money I get from selling my builds. This removes the hassle of having MU's and Industry but I still have MU's to help my org.

My advice would be to think why you're using MU's. Do you convert the ore into Honeycomb at your factory? Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy the materials from the market with the current ore prices? Besides, Asteroids exist and are empty of players now (and use the old mining mechanic) because the vast majority of players have too much ore. If you don't like MU's - don't use them.

I tried astroyed mining one time and when I got their it was already mined  I may need two try it again and yes I do honey comb my own but what I use two do was mine for a day or 2 sell all and buy the types of ore I wanted

i guess I just can’t get use two the new ways I will see how salvage goes  I should sell some of my blue prints  probably 

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