Sawafa Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 What we have curently with elements/ore prices on markets? They constantly are going down. One of the reason of such trend could be the fact the market is oversaturated with elements. Or noone need all elements in such volumes that could be provided by manufacturers. Why? Because there is no element destruction mechanic in the game besides PvP. NQ tried to introduce element destruction after colision, that was not well rated by the players because of the multiple bugs that resulted in element destruction not by player fault. OK. What I propose is to introduce element destruction mechanic like Core Combat Stress mechanic. What I mean: elements should accumulate Element Usage Stress. Every time when element is being used it accumulates some stress, when accumulated stress is reached some maximum value, element live is decreased by one (and possibly element becomes broken and need repair*). So, the element that are not actively used will remain healthy. Some examples: Engines (normal engines/airfoils/brakes/adjsutors/etc...) could accumulate stress points while they're producing thrust. The more thrust is produced by element the more usage stress will be acumulated. High tier elements could have more maximum usage stress values. Industries - each produced element will add some value to the industry's Element Usage Stress. Elevators/Doors - every single opening of the door or usage of elevator will add a tiny bit of Element Stress Value to them. The Element Usage Stress should remain with the element for a life time of the element. It can not be reduced by repairing the element. This will introduce the need to replace the element at some point in time. And this is what will make markets live - It will be additional sink for resources in game. What I also care about is the need of multiple replacing destroyed element by hand on the big constructs (with 1000+ elements). So we need some mechanic that will simplify this - the player should have the possibility of replacing all destroued elements at once, by doing some action single time only. Maybe curent already available Repair Units should be usable for that. --------------------------------- Such changes will make the industrial life much more funny - as market will always need the products produced by them! As is now if you start some production the market price for manufacturing item will always fall, as there is no sink for this produced element. GEEKsogen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serula Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 Will this stress be visible? If yes, will it be repairable? If no, players will get an inventory full of nearly broken stuff because they don't want it to break during combat or important situations. Like for instance the antigravity engines on large ships. Instant ship gone if that happens. Based on that you probably want to see the stress. But if you can repair it there won't be a market for the elements and you end up with an inventory full of nearly broken stuff. Or you have to delete them. If things break in mid flight you might trash your ship. And if you have a lot of elements who is going to check them all? So nearly broken items will also need to be visible in a build helper list otherwise its another tedious mechanic if it's not already. What about a giant factory? Isn't that going to be super annoying to have to replace parts on a daily basis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawafa Posted January 17, 2022 Author Share Posted January 17, 2022 > Will this stress be visible? Sure, it should be visible... In build helper, In Inspect item, and also by Lua API, maybe in other places. > Will it be repairable? No, it shouldn't. As this will fix the element sink, that is the purpose of this whole Element Usage Stress. > players will get an inventory full of nearly broken stuff The game should have some disassembler, that can consume any element and prouce something usefull from it... Maybe parts or pures or scraps... > antigravity engines on large ships. Instant ship gone if that happens It would be cool! But sure, you should be able to see, if your elements are going to die soon. > And if you have a lot of elements who is going to check them all? it could be something like core.getElementUsageStressById(elementId) for example > Isn't that going to be super annoying to have to replace parts on a daily basis? Yes, it will be super annoying. And I mentioned that. There should be some solution for quick multiple replacement of all broken elements. Curently there is Repair Unit element in game which makes exactly that - it replaces all broken/destroyed elements and honeycombs with the new ones. Maybe something should be tuned here, but in general I agree - you don't want to replace all dead elements by hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptLoRes Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 Yes I completely agree! What this game needs now after the severe resource limitations introduced by Demeter, is as many sinks as possible so that we can just get this over with, declare the game dead and move on.. Zireaa and GEEKsogen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight-Sevy Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 I'm not a fan of this kind of system. Let's wait to see the addition of Territory Wars. Let the destruction of elements be the result of a voluntary commitment in PvP zone. It also takes more tools to be able to use / replace broken elements. In reality, I think it is necessary to speed up the gameplay of the game: - Limit the maximum number of elements you can put on a ship (which reduces the price of a ship). - Reduce warp price but implement interception mechanics => If the game is faster, the ships less imposing and less expensive. People will be more able to take risks in PvP zone. Palis Airuta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlander Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 8 hours ago, Sawafa said: What we have curently with elements/ore prices on markets? They constantly are going down. One of the reason of such trend could be the fact the market is oversaturated with elements. Or noone need all elements in such volumes that could be provided by manufacturers. Why? Because there is no element destruction mechanic in the game besides PvP. NQ tried to introduce element destruction after colision, that was not well rated by the players because of the multiple bugs that resulted in element destruction not by player fault. OK. What I propose is to introduce element destruction mechanic like Core Combat Stress mechanic. What I mean: elements should accumulate Element Usage Stress. Every time when element is being used it accumulates some stress, when accumulated stress is reached some maximum value, element live is decreased by one (and possibly element becomes broken and need repair*). So, the element that are not actively used will remain healthy. Some examples: Engines (normal engines/airfoils/brakes/adjsutors/etc...) could accumulate stress points while they're producing thrust. The more thrust is produced by element the more usage stress will be acumulated. High tier elements could have more maximum usage stress values. Industries - each produced element will add some value to the industry's Element Usage Stress. Elevators/Doors - every single opening of the door or usage of elevator will add a tiny bit of Element Stress Value to them. The Element Usage Stress should remain with the element for a life time of the element. It can not be reduced by repairing the element. This will introduce the need to replace the element at some point in time. And this is what will make markets live - It will be additional sink for resources in game. What I also care about is the need of multiple replacing destroyed element by hand on the big constructs (with 1000+ elements). So we need some mechanic that will simplify this - the player should have the possibility of replacing all destroued elements at once, by doing some action single time only. Maybe curent already available Repair Units should be usable for that. --------------------------------- Such changes will make the industrial life much more funny - as market will always need the products produced by them! As is now if you start some production the market price for manufacturing item will always fall, as there is no sink for this produced element. A G Force system could easily simulate stress based on what sort of stress elements are put under for sure but it really only works in atmo. Personally I am more in facor of a wear and tear based system that is based on SU traveled vs G Force systems as it does small amounts of damage to all elements being used in atmo, in space, as well as in static cores in general. For damage done it just needs to be based on the size, grade, rarity, and tags so that: XS Ship Elements take 1hp per SU in atmo or space S Ship Elements take 2hp per SU in atmo or space M Ship Elements take 3hp per SU in atmo or space L Ship Elements take 4hp per SU in atmo or space XL Ship Elements take 5hp per SU in atmo or space Basic Ship Elements take 1hp per SU on top of the size HP damage in atmo or space Advanced Ship Elements take 2hp per SU on top of the size HP damage in atmo or space Uncommon Ship Elements take 3hp per SU on top of the size HP damage in atmo or space Rare Ship Elements take 4hp per SU on top of the size HP damage in atmo or space Unique Ship Elements take 5hp per SU on top of the size HP damage in atmo or spac Maneuvering Ship Elements take 1hp per SU on top of size/grade HP damage in atmo or space Freight Ship Elements take 2hp per SU on top of size/grade HP damage in atmo or space Military Ship Elements take 3hp per SU on top of size/grade HP damage in atmo or space I think all other static core based elements should also follow those guide lines along with different elements like doors, switches, MUs, and Industry Units every time ore is produced per hour, parts produced, or every time you go through a door that should reduce hp and also increase production time, lower efficiency, and take longer for doors to open and close based on 1-100% efficiency. This type of system focuses on those who use things more ofent, fly more often, produce more, or mine more as the MU efficiency should rely more on the HP health of the element as the actual efficiency as it is essentially the same thing and does the same thing as the OPs proposed system only really effects atmo based elements as 0G vaccume of space is a limited approach to a system that should degrade with use based on size, grade, and tags of all elements not just atmo parts. GEEKsogen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillwin Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 a lot of this will just lead to unused elements. why put doors on a ship if you have to replace them every time you turn around. dont use lights just use luminecent voxels. Dont use anything cosmetic, no plants, toilets, beds, chairs, tables, etc (might as well just remove them all from game). I mean people moved whole factories to sanctuary to avoid taxes what extent do you like they will go to avoid having to replace a bunch of stuff on there ship everyday and to avoid extra costs. As far as engines and wings and all the flying elements the rule of thumb will be, dont have it on your ship if you dont own a schematic for it. I mean how many times do you willingly buy something before it becomes cheaper and easier to set up a line and save yourself a trip to the market every day to replace stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawafa Posted January 17, 2022 Author Share Posted January 17, 2022 @Gillwin > to replace a bunch of stuff on there ship everyday Who did say "every day"? Sure not. "Free" usage period should be long enough, definitely more than a day or even a week. > Dont use anything cosmetic, Use it, noone stops you from using them > people moved whole factories to sanctuary to avoid taxes People should stop doing such things. This game is MMO, not single player game. MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online (game). People should learn how to interact (and gain profit from such interaction!) with each other ingame and stop playing SOLO mode in MMO game. Use markets, people. They simplify things very very much! Don't lock yourself inside your HQ/sanct tile. Game curently provides a lot of instruments to generate quanta, starting from harvesting and mining (not only with mining units, but roids too) and finishing with Aphelia (or players) missions. Do you think you can't earn much money because you're solo playing? Stop playing solo! Just get in contact with 2-3-4 players nearby and you will have many opportunities how to grow faster. Join any bigger corporation and I am sure they will teach you how to acquire quanta with missions safely and effectively. > I mean how many times do you willingly buy something before it becomes cheaper and easier to set up a line and save yourself a trip to the market every day to replace stuff? cheaper to set up a line? Did you see schematic prices? And did you see curent elements prices? It's almost always more profitable to buy something at market than setting up the line for it producing. Since schematics were introduced in 0.23 patch producing elements by your self is no more efficient. Every producing line payback period is couple of monthes, in case of rare/exotic elements it could easy be around a year... So, the only case when you need to setup a line is when you plan to produce something for the market and not for yourself. So, to answer the question "how many times": I buy almost everything on markets. Conclusion: Just change your playing style if you're playing solo... and things will be much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxim Kammerer Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 9 hours ago, Sawafa said: People should stop doing such things. That sounds like NQ: Stop playing DU the wrong way! That's not going to happen. It's an open world game. Everybody plays it his own way. If you try to force players into another playstyle than they will find workarounds or leave the game. Kurosawa and Zireaa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawafa Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share Posted January 18, 2022 The issue is... this game started as very friendly to builders (well, I'm not speaking about voxel tools available for builders at that moment or even right now )... It had infinite resources at prealpha/maybe alpha... Then it was completely PvP-Free for a very long time... But thing changes from that time and the players who were playing with one style can not play with that style anymore... So, they should either way adopt to new changes or leave... All players who says taxes are too high, there is to big resources nerf in the game, etc - they simply do not want to adopt to new changes, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillwin Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Solo playstyle should always be an option even in an MMO. Especially since DU was supposed to be a civilization building game. A civilization is made of a lot of different kinds of people. Some of us like to choose how often and when we want to socialize with others. Yes, i spend a lot of my time solo, but there are times when i CHOOSE to socialize. To define an MMO as a game that MUST interact with others and you MUST have money as an main objective is just plain silly and will lead to further decrease in player numbers. I am not saying there is anything wrong with having money as a major goal, or spending all of your time on the market, but dismissing other play styles is just not a winning strategy for a game like DU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawafa Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share Posted January 18, 2022 The topic is not about dismissing other play styles, though. Sure, it should be possible to play solo, as it is now. And anyone can play as he/she wants. It's just a question of what is more effective for individual player. Anyway, the proposed idea is just about how elements degradation could be done, just to pay NQ (and some other players too) attention to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlander Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 On 1/17/2022 at 4:25 PM, Gillwin said: a lot of this will just lead to unused elements. why put doors on a ship if you have to replace them every time you turn around. dont use lights just use luminecent voxels. Dont use anything cosmetic, no plants, toilets, beds, chairs, tables, etc (might as well just remove them all from game). I mean people moved whole factories to sanctuary to avoid taxes what extent do you like they will go to avoid having to replace a bunch of stuff on there ship everyday and to avoid extra costs. As far as engines and wings and all the flying elements the rule of thumb will be, dont have it on your ship if you dont own a schematic for it. I mean how many times do you willingly buy something before it becomes cheaper and easier to set up a line and save yourself a trip to the market every day to replace stuff? MUs introducing efficiency drops via time and running constantly either needs to be applied to everything in which you need to pick what you want to calibrate with every element in the game to keep it running or it needs to be adapted to some other meta since HP is efficiency with 1-100% HP doing the same thing. If there are unused elements that is a good thing as there should be no reason to run hundreds of thousands if not 1 million industry units all the time that never require upkeep, efficiency drops, or fuel to run them constantly churning out parts or elements without some form of sink. Its the same with ships that never get destroed via skill or warpong to avoid PvP taking any resources or parts out of the game to keep the health of the market stable between knee jeck system NQ adds before they vave into removing them. Its like owning a car that you need to keep the gas tank full and that parts break down over time, some parts like tires need replaced x amount of miles, oil changed x amount of miles, and that over time parts wear out and need to be replaced. There is also a big difference between a Honda Civic vs a formula 1 race car in how quickly parts wear out or fail and how fast you need to swap out the tires in the case of size XS-L as well as rarity of basic-unique and also if it has tags of being military, freight, or maneuvering. In terms of ships or airplanes they require constant maintenence wether its a cesna, a beoing 747, or an F-22 with those pushing the most speed power etc being damaged more quickly. But also that all ships or industry/MU elements should never always be running at 100% but that wether it is running 24/7 or if you are flying to the market with temorary use should cause damage to elements in use so that it not only takes more resources out of the system but the efficiency drop on the elements should create an element of danger in which creates considtions that are constantly changing stats on parts as you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatRillos Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 (edited) No. There are already too many survival games out there. I don't see a benefit of making more players quit either. I honestly play this because it isn't rust or any of that mess where I have to worry about food and water. There are plenty of those games out there. We don't need DU to become like all the other stuff out there just to follow a fad. Edited January 19, 2022 by FatRillos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlander Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 3 hours ago, FatRillos said: No. There are already too many survival games out there. I don't see a benefit of making more players quit either. I honestly play this because it isn't rust or any of that mess where I have to worry about food and water. There are plenty of those games out there. We don't need DU to become like all the other stuff out there just to follow a fad. DU is a fad based game. They wanted EvE but they ended up with Space Landmark and it fails at both aspects since anything we build beyond industry has no purpose with resource generators and bad PvP. Lol the worst thing that can happen is they actually could make a game more than 1000 people play if they actually developed something. VandelayIndustries and Zireaa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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