Weightless ammo again? WTF NQ?

[Daphne Jones]

Hauling a load of ammo, I noticed that it's gone back to being weightless... well nearly massless. Specifically, DU ammo specific gravity is 0.11 (water's specific gravity is 1.0). Sorry couldn't resist that once I started the sentence with "specifically". That translates to 0.11 kg/L, making it about the lightest thing in DU.

 

NQ, have you ever held a bullet - or a box of bullets - in your hand? Ammo is heavy. The lightest smokeless powders come in at about the density of water - 1 kg/L. The rest of the round is made of lead, steel, and copper. I bet you know the densities of steel and copper since they're in game an you got them about right. Steel is 8 kg/L. I don't remember copper, but it's denser than steel iirc. You can't take a bunch of stuff heavier than water and put it together so it's lighter than water. (That's the Theorem of the Mean for those of you who didn't pay attention in math class.)

 

There's a good reason that ammo is heavy... a slug of metal does a lot more damage when it hits than does, say, water. That's why we let kids shoot water guns at each other. And these bullets are 1/9 the mass of the same volume of water. You probably wouldn't notice getting hit by this.

 

I hope this was an accident and not another concession to whiny PVP carebears. Please make the ammo a little more realistic.

[Warlander]

There has to be some kind of half assed balance in the game.

 

It comes down to:

• Attack or defense element
• Ammo or shield enegy cells
• Containers or Weapon Crates

 

You shouldnt be able to do it all on a ship without sacrificing something.

 

• Weapons or defense elements should weigh the same
• Ammo for weapons or shield cells for defense should weigh the same
• Having to choose between containers or weapon crates and filling it with ore or parts or different ammo should all weigh relatively the same.
• And then building the atmo/space frame around it with as many addons for AGG, Warp, performance parts, etc on top of that.

 

There should be some kind of half ass balance where whatever play style you want you can build a frame around it as a hauler platform, defense platform, assault platform, a mining platform, and you cant do it all at once and you have to leverage attack with defense or performance and having consiquences on what you choose.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Warlander

[Physics]

5 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Hauling a load of ammo, I noticed that it's gone back to being weightless... well nearly massless. Specifically, DU ammo specific gravity is 0.11 (water's specific gravity is 1.0). Sorry couldn't resist that once I started the sentence with "specifically". That translates to 0.11 kg/L, making it about the lightest thing in DU.

 

NQ, have you ever held a bullet - or a box of bullets - in your hand? Ammo is heavy. The lightest smokeless powders come in at about the density of water - 1 kg/L. The rest of the round is made of lead, steel, and copper. I bet you know the densities of steel and copper since they're in game an you got them about right. Steel is 8 kg/L. I don't remember copper, but it's denser than steel iirc. You can't take a bunch of stuff heavier than water and put it together so it's lighter than water. (That's the Theorem of the Mean for those of you who didn't pay attention in math class.)

 

There's a good reason that ammo is heavy... a slug of metal does a lot more damage when it hits than does, say, water. That's why we let kids shoot water guns at each other. And these bullets are 1/9 the mass of the same volume of water. You probably wouldn't notice getting hit by this.

 

I hope this was an accident and not another concession to whiny PVP carebears. Please make the ammo a little more realistic.

Agreed that ammo does need to be heavy but please make sure it’s balanced when weight is applied. (Rails should be more heavy per round compared to Cannon round for example). 

[Aaron Cain]

Good point, ammo should also be realistically weighed.

[Warlander]

18 hours ago, Physics said:

Agreed that ammo does need to be heavy but please make sure it’s balanced when weight is applied. (Rails should be more heavy per round compared to Cannon round for example). 

 

If its made out of lead then it should weigh the same as gold imo.

[Daphne Jones]

On 12/12/2021 at 11:40 AM, Warlander said:

 

If its made out of lead then it should weigh the same as gold imo.

Well, lead at 11 kg/L is much less dense than gold. But depleted uranium rounds exist in RL (for shooting through tank armor) and that's just a smidgeon lighter than gold (19.1 kg/L vs 19.3 kg/L)

[Warlander]

Yeah just looked it up just remember all the stories of gold bars that were really lead when they drill into them to see like the federal reserve selling gold bars to china.

 

But I do think NQ needs to consider weight by caliber or pound shell size for machine guns/cannons, rail guns and missles.

 

Typical air-to-air missiles[edit]

Weight	Rocket Name	Country of origin	Period of manufacture and use	Warhead weight	Warhead types	Range	Speed
43.5 kg	Molniya R-60	Soviet Union  Russia	1974-	3 kg	expanding-rod warhead	8 km	Mach 2.7
82.7 kg	K-5	Soviet Union  Russia	1957-1977	13 kg	High explosive warhead	2–6 km	Mach 2.33
86 kg	Raytheon AIM-9 Sidewinder	United States	1956-	9.4 kg	Annular blast fragmentation	18 km	Mach 2.5
87.4 kg	Diehl IRIS-T	Germany	2005-	11.4 kg	HE/fragmentation	25 km	Mach 3
88 kg	MBDA AIM-132 ASRAAM	United Kingdom	2002-	10 kg	Blast/fragmentation	50 km	Mach 3+
89 kg	Matra R550 Magic/Magic 2	France	1976-1986 (Magic) 1986- (Magic 2)	12.5 kg	Blast/fragmentation	15 km	Mach 2.7
105 kg	Vympel R-73	Russia	1982-	7.4 kg	Fragmentation	20–40 km	Mach 2.5
112 kg	MBDA MICA-EM/-IR	France	1996- (EM) 2000- (IR)	12 kg	Blast/fragmentation (focused splinters HE)	> 60 km	Mach 4
118 kg	Rafael Derby	Israel	1990-	23 kg	Blast/fragmentation	50 km	Mach 4
136 kg	de Havilland Firestreak	United Kingdom	1957-1988	22.7 kg	Annular Blast Fragmentation	6.4 km	Mach 3
152 kg	Raytheon AIM-120D AMRAAM	United States	2008	18 kg	Blast/fragmentation	160 km	Mach 4
152 kg	Raytheon AIM-120C AMRAAM	United States	1996	18 kg	Blast/fragmentation	105 km	Mach 4
152 kg	Raytheon AIM-120B AMRAAM	United States	1994-	23 kg	Blast/fragmentation	48 km	Mach 4
154 kg	Hawker Siddeley Red Top	United Kingdom	1964-1988	31 kg	Annular Blast Fragmentation	12 km	Mach 3.2
154 kg	Astra Missile	India	2010-	15 kg	HE fragmentation directional warhead	80-110+ km	Mach 4.5+
175 kg	Vympel R-77	Russia	1994-	22 kg	Blast/fragmentation	200 km	Mach 4.5
180 kg	PL-12	China	2007-		?	70-100+ km	Mach 4
190 kg	MBDA Meteor	United Kingdom  Europe	2016-	?	Blast/fragmentation	200 km[26]	Mach 4+
220 kg	AAM-4	Japan	1999-	?	Directional explosive warhead	100+ km	Mach 4-5
253 kg	R-27	Soviet Union  Russia	1983–	39 kg	Blast/fragmentation, or continuous rod	80–130 km	Mach 4,5
450–470 kg	AIM-54 Phoenix	United States	1974–2004	61 kg	High explosive	190 km	Mach 5
475 kg	R-40	Soviet Union  Russia	1970-	38–100 kg	Blast fragmentation	50–80 km	Mach 2.2-4.5
490 kg	R-33	Soviet Union  Russia	1981-	47.5 kg	HE/fragmentation warhead	304 km	Mach 4.5-6
600 kg	R-37	Soviet Union  Russia	1989-	60 kg	HE fragmentation directional warhead	150-400+ km	Mach 6
748 kg	K-100	Russia/ India	2010-	50 kg	HE fragmentation directional warhead	200-400+ km	Mach 3.3

 

 

An example of what air to air missles weigh. I couldnt find proper shell weights for cannons but just the brass 16in guns weight 1t and idepending on the high impact or high capacity rounds to explode on impact or breach armor were 5-6ft tall and weighed base of 1.5t and not sure on the high impact version but it prolly weighed 1.6+t.