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Warp ruins the game.


VandelayIndustries

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...but so does 4hr of AFK slowboating and 2su radar range.  Warp doesn't really have a place in a game with 1 solar system.  The fact you can be anywhere in the few seconds it takes to warp destroys possibilities for creating real homes, and then civilizations you care about.  It also is terrible for pvp as it enables force projection.  Imagine in EvE if you could get to any system in the game in 1min.  It would become unplayable.   Now i dont care one way if they wipe or not, but if they do for release this is their chance to really save the game.  

 

Remove at least 4 planets.  Too much redundancy.  Now you also bring the planets closer.  Keep madis/thades/alioth in safe zone.  Bring those planets even a little closer.  Make 4-5 other planets around 30min - 1.5hr travel.  And maybe 1 far planet at 2 hours from alioth, one of the ice planets.  

 

Improve the radar system.  How far you can see, and building options that effect your sight within radar (enables gameplay for haulers evading).  Imagine if a radar system could tell if u have XL engines so you can be seen farther.  Then L engines have certain range, then M and so on.  Giving haulers options like these would be great gameplay in trying to evade or hunt people.  Different speeds, different radar ranges.  So many possibilities.  

 

Next you deal with the core speed.  

L- 20k

M - 25k

S  -28.5k

xs - 30k

 

This gives now purpose to other cores, not only in haulers, but in pvp.   Large cores are more of a siege/protection core.  Biggest guns, biggest punch, but slower.  M and S become your main haulers most likely (or even small runs with xs).  S cores now as a hauler provide a super advantage as a blockade runner, and escaping M and L core pvp ships.  Of course S cores can also be pvp and chase those ships, but for anyone who has actually intercepted knows that shooting someone going 30k only works so well because rails/lasers can hit at 2su.  S guns have a way gimped range, so that leads excellent pilots to evade.  Real active gameplay.  Shields also enable this because 1 or 2 lucky shots from a L core wont blow your engines or your adjusters.  

 

Having no warp also brings people real choices in where they want to live.  Flying thru space can be fun and active with a better radar system.  Choosing your ship core can matter, and a balanced fleet can matter more too, giving roles for people, and also lowering the entry cost because S and M cores as faster interceptors work now with their speed bonus.  Add in the ability for bonus's and taxes for an org to own a % of a planet and the ability to field fleets of ships of different sizes around their planet and you actually got yourself a space game on your hands.  And all without doing to much but changing the planets position after a wipe, and altering cores max speed.  And put some love into the radar system.  Thats one thing lacking in DU over EvE is, you had to choose where you lived, and then you lived there.  And it still lends to the nomad style for people who chose that, and the haulers, and the people exploring for asteroids or other content NQ puts in the pvp zone.  So please, if you do chose to wipe NQ, please for the love of god get rid of warp and give your game a chance. 

Edited by VandelayIndustries
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It me having a sci-fi game without warp pretty much turns it modern day. Its like one of the few sci-fi elements we have left since VR is now useless, teleporters are useless, and after that whats next AGG?

 

There should be more to do as far as PvP and I get warp stops that from happening especially if you are patroling space looking for someone to fight and every time you target them they bolt and warp.

 

I think that NQ needs to add PvP cores that if you want weapons on a ship you have to use a PvP core. So that you can potentially still fight people you find in space but with PvP Dynamic Cores you could fight people in the bubbles to have more chance at PvP to occur locally. With PvP Static Cores as defense platforms with auto AA scripted defenses you would have something to fight against in addition to looting whatever you kill.

 

Slowing max speeds shouldnt matter unless you want to destroy engineering ships in general since no matter what the smaller ships get up to max speed faster naturally due to less weight and you could use a L core to make a small ship if you wanted it.

 

I think NQ needs to create some kind of disruptor ammo that if you are able to penetrate the shields and aim at their warp drive it should stop them from warping. 

 

But the thing is that there is no real defense in the game even with shields since it adds core stress for whatever reason. Do you remember the time the Enterprise got fired on by Klingons and they shot the shield and disabled the whole Enterprise because the core blew? It didnt happen because it was a sepperate power source and once the shield drops its when things  start taking damage.

 

There are no real defenses in this game other than offense since there are no automatic turrets or anything run by ai to help defend you other than die which is why warp is still in the game since it took years to just get shields and they kinda suck.

 

There is so much going wrong with PvP in general its not funny.

 

The problem is the talent system or requiring gunner seats outside of the pilot being able to fire their own weapons or being chased as a frieghter and not having any kind of adaquate defenses in general since before this you needed mining, piloting, then container PDs, and finnaly weapons/ammo requiring like 50-60mil exp to make a freighter have reverse defenses.

 

At this point piloting is pretty much a solo experience for most people and not having any real weapons unless thats what you did with piloting, radar weapons, ammo, hp, etc is still a path but it takes too long to get into PvP let alone add tons more containers and everything already bogging down freighters from being defensable fortresses rather than battleships does not exist.

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3 minutes ago, Warlander said:

It me having a sci-fi game without warp pretty much turns it modern day. Its like one of the few sci-fi elements we have left since VR is now useless, teleporters are useless, and after that whats next AGG?

 

There should be more to do as far as PvP and I get warp stops that from happening especially if you are patroling space looking for someone to fight and every time you target them they bolt and warp.

 

I think that NQ needs to add PvP cores that if you want weapons on a ship you have to use a PvP core. So that you can potentially still fight people you find in space but with PvP Dynamic Cores you could fight people in the bubbles to have more chance at PvP to occur locally. With PvP Static Cores as defense platforms with auto AA scripted defenses you would have something to fight against in addition to looting whatever you kill.

 

Slowing max speeds shouldnt matter unless you want to destroy engineering ships in general since no matter what the smaller ships get up to max speed faster naturally due to less weight and you could use a L core to make a small ship if you wanted it.

 

I think NQ needs to create some kind of disruptor ammo that if you are able to penetrate the shields and aim at their warp drive it should stop them from warping. 

 

But the thing is that there is no real defense in the game even with shields since it adds core stress for whatever reason. Do you remember the time the Enterprise got fired on by Klingons and they shot the shield and disabled the whole Enterprise because the core blew? It didnt happen because it was a sepperate power source and once the shield drops its when things  start taking damage.

 

There are no real defenses in this game other than offense since there are no automatic turrets or anything run by ai to help defend you other than die which is why warp is still in the game since it took years to just get shields and they kinda suck.

 

There is so much going wrong with PvP in general its not funny.

 

The problem is the talent system or requiring gunner seats outside of the pilot being able to fire their own weapons or being chased as a frieghter and not having any kind of adaquate defenses in general since before this you needed mining, piloting, then container PDs, and finnaly weapons/ammo requiring like 50-60mil exp to make a freighter have reverse defenses.

 

At this point piloting is pretty much a solo experience for most people and not having any real weapons unless thats what you did with piloting, radar weapons, ammo, hp, etc is still a path but it takes too long to get into PvP let alone add tons more containers and everything already bogging down freighters from being defensable fortresses rather than battleships does not exist.

 

Bruh, you have to understand NQ's development speed.  It aint gonna happen.  We got to modify what we have to make something playable.  Warp makes sense when you traveling the galaxy.  We arent.  If you think the answer is to let pvpers "pull people out of warp" to pvp them...well thats not gonna go over and i dont think NQ has the ability to even develop that.  What i propose makes way more sense within NQ's abilities, and it puts people out in space....FLYING.  Its a space game I want to fly my space ship.  But you never run into people when everyone warps.  Or mission runners fly 100 su out of the pipe and your radar range is 2 su and every ship goes 30k.  How do i find that person.  Even the asteroids are borked because if you dont camp it, then any non pvper just sets a timer in how long it took them to find it, and bugs out before that timer hits.   So then my main option is to camp 1 of 200 asteroids hoping someone shows up?  Again, bad gameplay.  Also they respawn so having wars of MAJOR fights over them also isnt happening.  Bad design.  

 

NQ is nearing release, so any ideas about major development....not gonna happen.  Look at their tract record.  But what can happen is modifications of what they have that can immediately improve the game, and lay some ground work for later development.

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6 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

Bruh, you have to understand NQ's development speed.  It aint gonna happen.  We got to modify what we have to make something playable.  Warp makes sense when you traveling the galaxy.  We arent.  If you think the answer is to let pvpers "pull people out of warp" to pvp them...well thats not gonna go over and i dont think NQ has the ability to even develop that.  What i propose makes way more sense within NQ's abilities, and it puts people out in space....FLYING.  Its a space game I want to fly my space ship.  But you never run into people when everyone warps.  Or mission runners fly 100 su out of the pipe and your radar range is 2 su and every ship goes 30k.  How do i find that person.  Even the asteroids are borked because if you dont camp it, then any non pvper just sets a timer in how long it took them to find it, and bugs out before that timer hits.   So then my main option is to camp 1 of 200 asteroids hoping someone shows up?  Again, bad gameplay.  Also they respawn so having wars of MAJOR fights over them also isnt happening.  Bad design.  

 

NQ is nearing release, so any ideas about major development....not gonna happen.  Look at their tract record.  But what can happen is modifications of what they have that can immediately improve the game, and lay some ground work for later development.

 

PvP cores are as easy as taking the Static and Dynamic cores and the weapons limits are baked in already. They just need to remove the weapons from normal cores and its a go.

 

Obviously other layers of the solar system arent in the cards but for immediate PvP in the game PvP cores could work.

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@VandelayIndustriessaid:

"Without warp I can only be at one place at one time.  That matters...a lot.  And second changing core speeds does add more for defenses.  L cores cannot dominate in pursuits.  You have shields, and M and S if they want to evade will be able to run away majority of the time.  As your shields keep them up.  Second, if im in a S core pvp ship, i have limited range. so once again if i match your speed by do so 1.4 su away. i am SOL as i cannot deal damge to you.  That is a major defense.  The reason haulers never got away before was because my pvp ship was ALWAYS faster, and if I could see you on radar, I could shoot you and dmg you.  Changing core speed changes that meta BIG time.  This is fact."

 

Just let me ask you why there is no PvP to be had?

 

If people wanted to fight they would be fighting. The fact that nobody wants to fight no matter how long you patrol space is too expensive to build multi hundred million quanta haulers at a premium cost of warp cells since if I could fight with an armored fortress against PvPers I would slow boat but with a full hold its not possible to just add more containers for ammo and stack weapons when you are a sitting duck. Shields arent the greatest defense vs the weapons. Blowing the core without any sort of side power source you can keep them charged with was a bad idea and yeah sure you can stack cores but after you blow all the shields there is still no defense at the end of the day to just hand you my ship and I am just biding time before it goes down.

 

The speeds are already solid and it is a drag race to who hits 30kmph first to hit top speed and that last 10 or so knph is where smaller ships bridge the distance. I cant tell you how many time I come out of the bubble at 30kmph and it does not matter in most cases as the weapons range and tracking is so rediculous that even if they were slower they still get you and even if I managed to get away PvPers have warp too. With Autopilot there are only so many lanes you can travel.

 

Honestly most devs realize people dont want to travel 2-6+ hours on a roadtrip as endless travel is not fun in of itself. Its not all about dodging Pvp as much as it is just cutting down on the crazy flight times.

 

With missions going on there should be a lot of prey out there to pick on slow boating that cant warp.

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There isn't because 1 every ship does 30k and 2 su range is so small. People would do more pvp if there was some variety and not as costly.  That's why L core speed needs to be reduced drastically.  And yes 2-6 hours is crazy bad, but 30min to 1 hr on average isn't if there is danger and a better radar, and there is still the safe zone, where madis and thades reside that should be 20-30min trips.  Instantly traveling anywhere is bad game design for single shard game.  You can't do it in eve and that game has been around for 20 years making a profit. If I have a shield on a S core and go 28.5k and you are L core that goes 20k. More times than not I'm gonna outrun you before you can kill me. 

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Also, without stacking, you would be forced to haul in a M or L core for this big missions. Now I could patrol in an S core and have better odds to camp and find those mission haulers. But in return M cores with guns would be better for defense at an approaching S core.  That's called gameplay when many choices need to be made because 1 ship can't do it all.

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3 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

There isn't because 1 every ship does 30k and 2 su range is so small. People would do more pvp if there was some variety and not as costly.  That's why L core speed needs to be reduced drastically.  And yes 2-6 hours is crazy bad, but 30min to 1 hr on average isn't if there is danger and a better radar, and there is still the safe zone, where madis and thades reside that should be 20-30min trips.  Instantly traveling anywhere is bad game design for single shard game.  You can't do it in eve and that game has been around for 20 years making a profit. If I have a shield on a S core and go 28.5k and you are L core that goes 20k. More times than not I'm gonna outrun you before you can kill me. 

 

The way I see it Demeter pretty much finished off PvP except for larget orgs that have mining opperations on different planets with various people on their own. Even with T1 it takes like a month per box of ore and higher tiers are worse looking at the actual ore market in how much ore is entering the game. You used to be able to go wherever you wanted and mine or set up a base as a local launch pad. Now that ore is just under a month per box base and a lot longer for other ores there is nothing really to trasport and those who do are moving small amounts cheap via warp. I am sure there are still people moving large amounts of ore logistically but they budget for warp cells to keep what they earned as the losses post demeter are a whole lot worsse if you lose a ship than before.

 

The main issue with turning off the ability to warp is such that to avoid PvP you have to pay high prices and before demeter it used to cost us bare minimum 50 mil in warp cells to do so. PvPers dont have to pay anything to PvP and I could see the case for a warp disrutpor but unless it involves betting warp cells to stop the ship with some kind of spool time for warping for the chance to disrupt them with using warp cells and paying just as much or more than the other ship is using to disrupt them,

 

Just removing warp will not help the situation. Lowering the speeds on cores when smaller ships naturally go faster and if you need to hunt people down faster there is the option of more engines or adding thrust to your ship to overcome distance before warp or just shadowing someone until you get close enough to fire on them and destroy them is more of an option than just firing when you get into range so your weapons hit.

 

Its certainly a tricky thing but where you see it being unfair paeople pay a lot of money so its not like they get off scott free. Personally I warp to save time as I dont have all day/night to sit there traveling and just want to get there faster. Maybe you like road trips but I dont.

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18 minutes ago, Warlander said:

 

The way I see it Demeter pretty much finished off PvP except for larget orgs that have mining opperations on different planets with various people on their own. Even with T1 it takes like a month per box of ore and higher tiers are worse looking at the actual ore market in how much ore is entering the game. You used to be able to go wherever you wanted and mine or set up a base as a local launch pad. Now that ore is just under a month per box base and a lot longer for other ores there is nothing really to trasport and those who do are moving small amounts cheap via warp. I am sure there are still people moving large amounts of ore logistically but they budget for warp cells to keep what they earned as the losses post demeter are a whole lot worsse if you lose a ship than before.

 

The main issue with turning off the ability to warp is such that to avoid PvP you have to pay high prices and before demeter it used to cost us bare minimum 50 mil in warp cells to do so. PvPers dont have to pay anything to PvP and I could see the case for a warp disrutpor but unless it involves betting warp cells to stop the ship with some kind of spool time for warping for the chance to disrupt them with using warp cells and paying just as much or more than the other ship is using to disrupt them,

 

Just removing warp will not help the situation. Lowering the speeds on cores when smaller ships naturally go faster and if you need to hunt people down faster there is the option of more engines or adding thrust to your ship to overcome distance before warp or just shadowing someone until you get close enough to fire on them and destroy them is more of an option than just firing when you get into range so your weapons hit.

 

Its certainly a tricky thing but where you see it being unfair paeople pay a lot of money so its not like they get off scott free. Personally I warp to save time as I dont have all day/night to sit there traveling and just want to get there faster. Maybe you like road trips but I dont.

 

I like flying my ship, and having purpose. What game is there when u warp everywhere, and everything is the same?  Not much of one as you can see. More people flying in space and moving about is a good thing. Sell your ores at the planet you mine them to someone else, many possibilities.  What I propose would save the game, as it's dying pretty bad right now.  It's stupid you can teleport instantly and all the places you go are the same. That's why warp needs to go and a rework of the solar system is needed when they wipe for release. 

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We can even sometime set a little challenge, you get an L core pvp ship. Choose whatever set of weapons u want. I'll make an S core ship. You can choose wherever u want to be camping a planet and I'll let u know exact spot I'll be leaving the safe zone of planet.  Once u see me on radar I will try to out run you (anywhere but back into safe zone) and you can only accelerate to 20k speed.  See if u can kill me. Can even do it a couple times. If I get off your radar (in pvp zone) I win and it'd counted as successful evasion.  If core me, you win. And get the loot!

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1 minute ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

I like flying my ship, and having purpose. What game is there when u warp everywhere, and everything is the same?  Not much of one as you can see. More people flying in space and moving about is a good thing. Sell your ores at the planet you mine them to someone else, many possibilities.  What I propose would save the game, as it's dying pretty bad right now.  It's stupid you can teleport instantly and all the places you go are the same. That's why warp needs to go and a rework of the solar system is needed when they wipe for release. 

 

They could have scaled the solar system to match the top speed from the get go but they chose to make the solar system like 10 times larger than it needs to be for whatever reason since it had technical limitations. Thats their design choice not mine we could have had 3-4 solar systems in this game had they made better decisions but they didnt and then added warp to speed it up.

 

I get you dont like warp but its far from free depending on how much you move. All space games typically have a warp drive or sub light speeds and NQ copied that since they went with fossil fuels and capped themselves at 30knph which leave no room for any real sci-fi elements other than teleport pads, AGG, and Warp. The thing is that just removing it kills PvP further if that is your intent. Personally I would just not care to leave planet after that because I am not just going to hand over hundreds of millions in days, weeks, or months and hours of engineering better performance to PvPers when I have to spend money to avoid it and PvPers dont.

 

Thats not even mentioning that there isnt even a law system in game that has any form of consiquences for PvPing people in the first place since there is no crime, no stolen cargo, no loss to markets, or any retrobution once you take my ship to a bubble.

 

You cant have your cake and eat it too if I buy the cake and you want to smash it in my face and then buy you a new one then force me to walk to the store to get it. No thanks.

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10 minutes ago, Warlander said:

 

They could have scaled the solar system to match the top speed from the get go but they chose to make the solar system like 10 times larger than it needs to be for whatever reason since it had technical limitations. Thats their design choice not mine we could have had 3-4 solar systems in this game had they made better decisions but they didnt and then added warp to speed it up.

 

I get you dont like warp but its far from free depending on how much you move. All space games typically have a warp drive or sub light speeds and NQ copied that since they went with fossil fuels and capped themselves at 30knph which leave no room for any real sci-fi elements other than teleport pads, AGG, and Warp. The thing is that just removing it kills PvP further if that is your intent. Personally I would just not care to leave planet after that because I am not just going to hand over hundreds of millions in days, weeks, or months and hours of engineering better performance to PvPers when I have to spend money to avoid it and PvPers dont.

 

Thats not even mentioning that there isnt even a law system in game that has any form of consiquences for PvPing people in the first place since there is no crime, no stolen cargo, no loss to markets, or any retrobution once you take my ship to a bubble.

 

You cant have your cake and eat it too if I buy the cake and you want to smash it in my face and then buy you a new one then force me to walk to the store to get it. No thanks.

 

That makes no sense as you have the safe zone.  And while plans change they still intend to do Territory Warfare. So if that goes ahead as planned then you gonna be stuck in the blue circle cause people who can will pvp all the good tiles on the outer planets.  And what you gonna do when you warp there but it's a pvp zone and land in the pvp zone? Because that's NQs intention and always had been. And Deckard said TW info is coming soon so looks like that's how it will be.  Guess you will be stuck in blue circle or quitting anyway when that patch hits. 

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13 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

That makes no sense as you have the safe zone.  And while plans change they still intend to do Territory Warfare. So if that goes ahead as planned then you gonna be stuck in the blue circle cause people who can will pvp all the good tiles on the outer planets.  And what you gonna do when you warp there but it's a pvp zone and land in the pvp zone? Because that's NQs intention and always had been. And Deckard said TW info is coming soon so looks like that's how it will be.  Guess you will be stuck in blue circle or quitting anyway when that patch hits. 

 

If I cant mine and reliably transport the goods I work hard to aquire and or produce and im paying a premium to do so im not just going to give it away to someone. If they go with no warp or at best a decent disruptor system Ill just say screw it and build rather than play the game which seems like most people do around here. Without warp im not transporting anything since the risk does not match the reward for me based on how long it takes to aquire ore or build the ships vs how easy it is for someone to blow it up in less than 5 mins. Or forcing people to walk.

 

Like I said, You cant have your cake and eat it too if I buy the cake and you want to smash it in my face and then buy you a new one then force me to walk to the store to get it. No thanks

Edited by Warlander
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3 minutes ago, Warlander said:

 

If I cant mine and reliably transport the goods I work hard to aquire and or produce and im paying a premium to do so im not just going to give it away to someone. If they go with no warp or at best a decent disruptor system Ill just say screw it and build rather than play the game which seems like most people do around here. Without warp im not transporting anything since the risk does not match the reward for me based on how long it takes to aquire ore or build the ships vs how easy it is for someone to blow it up in less than 5 mins. Or forcing people to walk.

 

Like I said, You cant have your cake and eat it too if I buy the cake and you want to smash it in my face and then buy you a new one then force me to walk to the store to get it. No thanks

 

you said that already and it has no meaning.  You cannot teleport anywhere in 30seconds in EvE online.  The solar system here is terrible design and warp should be for transporting other solar systems.  I already explained how your arguments dont work.  You wont be coming and going from outer planets ANYWAY with warp once those safe zones are removed and pvp is there, as you described it wont be worth it.  Ok now that we got that out the way we can move on. 

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40 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

you said that already and it has no meaning.  You cannot teleport anywhere in 30seconds in EvE online.  The solar system here is terrible design and warp should be for transporting other solar systems.  I already explained how your arguments dont work.  You wont be coming and going from outer planets ANYWAY with warp once those safe zones are removed and pvp is there, as you described it wont be worth it.  Ok now that we got that out the way we can move on. 

 

Warp should always be an option.

 

 

Just because you dont like the idea of retreat does not mean it hasnt been a viable option of self preservation since forever. Flight or flight is a natural respons. If this was a dog fighting sim or modern day I would say sure it should be slow boat all the time with no escape. But its a future space sci-fi game. Warp is always a retreat mechanic even for the empire.

 

But it works both ways since you can use it to attack too if you know what lane you are in if you did your homework and meet them where they are going if you jump to the same planet in the same lane.

 

 

Edited by Warlander
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6 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

...but so does 4hr of AFK slowboating and 2su radar range.  Warp doesn't really have a place in a game with 1 solar system.  The fact you can be anywhere in the few seconds it takes to warp destroys possibilities for creating real homes, and then civilizations you care about.  It also is terrible for pvp as it enables force projection.  Imagine in EvE if you could get to any system in the game in 1min.  It would become unplayable.   Now i dont care one way if they wipe or not, but if they do for release this is their chance to really save the game.  

 

Remove at least 4 planets.  Too much redundancy.  Now you also bring the planets closer.  Keep madis/thades/alioth in safe zone.  Bring those planets even a little closer.  Make 4-5 other planets around 30min - 1.5hr travel.  And maybe 1 far planet at 2 hours from alioth, one of the ice planets.  

 

Improve the radar system.  How far you can see, and building options that effect your sight within radar (enables gameplay for haulers evading).  Imagine if a radar system could tell if u have XL engines so you can be seen farther.  Then L engines have certain range, then M and so on.  Giving haulers options like these would be great gameplay in trying to evade or hunt people.  Different speeds, different radar ranges.  So many possibilities.  

 

Next you deal with the core speed.  

L- 20k

M - 25k

S  -28.5k

xs - 30k

 

This gives now purpose to other cores, not only in haulers, but in pvp.   Large cores are more of a siege/protection core.  Biggest guns, biggest punch, but slower.  M and S become your main haulers most likely (or even small runs with xs).  S cores now as a hauler provide a super advantage as a blockade runner, and escaping M and L core pvp ships.  Of course S cores can also be pvp and chase those ships, but for anyone who has actually intercepted knows that shooting someone going 30k only works so well because rails/lasers can hit at 2su.  S guns have a way gimped range, so that leads excellent pilots to evade.  Real active gameplay.  Shields also enable this because 1 or 2 lucky shots from a L core wont blow your engines or your adjusters.  

 

Having no warp also brings people real choices in where they want to live.  Flying thru space can be fun and active with a better radar system.  Choosing your ship core can matter, and a balanced fleet can matter more too, giving roles for people, and also lowering the entry cost because S and M cores as faster interceptors work now with their speed bonus.  Add in the ability for bonus's and taxes for an org to own a % of a planet and the ability to field fleets of ships of different sizes around their planet and you actually got yourself a space game on your hands.  And all without doing to much but changing the planets position after a wipe, and altering cores max speed.  And put some love into the radar system.  Thats one thing lacking in DU over EvE is, you had to choose where you lived, and then you lived there.  And it still lends to the nomad style for people who chose that, and the haulers, and the people exploring for asteroids or other content NQ puts in the pvp zone.  So please, if you do chose to wipe NQ, please for the love of god get rid of warp and give your game a chance. 



 

I will only react on the warp side.
 

It does not kill the game, it is a necessary mechanism moreover to avoid the 3 or 4 hours of AFK journey that you will spend playing on another game.
On the other hand, it is poorly executed.
 

My list of things to do to make things more interesting:
 

- Added PvP on all planets from the outer rim to the safe zone
- Removed the ability of warps to execute on a planet
- Force players to warp on warp beacons
- Reduce the cost of warp cell
- Add a game mechanism to catch ships that warp on position.
 

=> Why this series of measurements?
This will bring about a universe controlled by the players.
The warp will be fast and economical, but much more dangerous. But it will also require access to Beacons which must be defended in the PvP zone.
You could still go conventionally on a planet choosing a long non-pipe ride or you are unlikely to get caught.
This will bring the fun back into the game and give the whole thing a lot of dynamism.
An organization that opens a trade route will have to defend its warp beacon but could generate a lot of profit with all players paying a right of way. But this organization will also have to protect their warp channel from pirates who can position themselves in the middle.
 

You can also allow you to reduce the maximum speed of large ships without impacting / annoying players too much.

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We can take the warp out of the game with PvP, no problem.

Or:  we leave the current solar system as a pure safezone, instead several new solar systems are managed as pure PvP systems, where the warp drive is prevented by galactic nebula fields.
I'm very curious to see how many will then want to settle in the PvP systems

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4 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

We can take the warp out of the game with PvP, no problem.

Or:  we leave the current solar system as a pure safezone, instead several new solar systems are managed as pure PvP systems, where the warp drive is prevented by galactic nebula fields.
I'm very curious to see how many will then want to settle in the PvP systems


 

You will still be able to warp between Alioth / Madis / Thades.

Eventually the planets on the outer rim will be fully PvP.
Si NQ leaves the warp possible on the planets. We'll just wait for the players to come out of warp.

If you don't want to participate in PvP, you don't have to warp on the outer rims planetes indeed.

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1 minute ago, Knight-Sevy said:


 

You will still be able to warp between Alioth / Madis / Thades.

Eventually the planets on the outer rim will be fully PvP.
Si NQ leaves the warp possible on the planets. We'll just wait for the players to come out of warp.

If you don't want to participate in PvP, you don't have to warp on the outer rims planetes indeed.

I am happy in my Sanctuary Aliot world thank you.
Still wondering about new solar systems and more content to explore. By themselves, the planets are dead and boring. I don't think any player would want to live on many of them if the high quality ore didn't entice them. It somehow lacks the living in the galaxy, a reason to fly out there and really explore or discover something.

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Nice to see everytime that adding PVP will save DU, but when you look at what caused the most people to leave its the addition of schematics and the way pvp is implemented. Competition Space engeneers and empyrion both have a more suitable pvp system as both are more personal and more skill based. When talking about space pvp i am thinking about stuff like starconflict where you are lucky to live more then 3 minutes per battle if the opposition is good.

With regard to PvP, sure there are things that can be added to make DU better, but the first question should be, is it player vs player or organization vs organization that we are intersted in.

Ground warfare should be added but there is no real reason to add it with demeter installed, as what would you fight for?

Same for ground to air and air to ground, player vs player. It would be nice to be able to sent assassins out in the field but for what reason, there is no gains.

DU at the moment is parts and bits with no coherent gameplay, it should have been fit for marvelous roleplaying but thats missing too, grand warfare and revenge would be nice to have with good cause but that also is missing, and witht the new tax system chance of any organization to actually own large portions of planets is also out of the window. 

It is relative easy to fix most but then still the base for all is kinda dead, the community battles of old are gone and fights between large organizations are raged elsewhere. Mass owned land portions should be possible, fights on borders should be possible, but for that we should go back to the intention of only having sanctuary at the sanctuary planet and let alioth be the battle ground it was intended to be with maybe some safehavens here and there. better to have the tax on alith removed, add shielding or maintenancve on TU units and add something to add the need to actually own large pieces of alioth, and scrap the taxes that prevent this. if taxes are gone and actual warfare can be used to take hexes the situation will in the end stabilize and be better as a whole.

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 Imagine in EvE if you could get to any system in the game in 1min.  It would become unplayable.   

 

Actually, you pretty much can.. Maybe not 1 minute, but you can travel massive distances (way further than in DU) very quickly in EVE

There are several systems in EVE which wil lallow fast travel, including jump drives, Thera and filaments. And Wormholes are actually a pretty good way to get across the entire New Eden system fast, provided you have the right tools and information.

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Warp should always be a thing. Its not about avoiding PvP as much as being a fast travel option at a premium.

 

One possible solution is that since you are basically creating a wormhole between two points in space and depending on the distance the player intends to travel should be the size of the wormhole on both sides of the jump point to end point. When a player warps this wormhole should remain active until the player initiating the warp reaches the end point. Allowing the PvPer to drift the warping ship if they can enter the wormhole and warp with the other player before the wormhole closes on the other size after the other player finishes the jump the wormhole slowly closes and if the player makes it through then they can continue to PvP the other ship that needs to slow down as they reach their desired destination.

 

Or the second solution would also be a disrution mechanic. The warp drive should have a heavy spool time before activation of at least a minuite with talents to make it 25-50% faster potentially so that you have 30 seconds to disrupt the warp drive. I do not think it should instantly interrupt the warp drive since you cant just have players spend a ton of warp cells and instantly lose potentially 50mil+ in cells arbitrarily if someone tries to disrupt you. Since the warping player is paying a premium to warp the PvP ship can either drift via the wormhole for free or they should also have to spend warp cells or disrution cells in this case to counteract the warp drive cost spent on the warp cells.

 

If anything the amount of disruptor cells you use at bare minimum should negate however many warp cells you think the target is using to counteract the distance the warp drive will then travel. It should not tell the PvPer how many warp cells were spent and it should be a game of bidding how much you think the warping ship is using to negate their warp altogether or if you bet wrong it will just lower how far they can actually travel with warp so that you have a chance to drift them or warp to where you think they are going to end up based on what the ship size is.

 

Smaller ships should be easy to disrupt as it wont cost many warp cells to travel so bidding a minimal amount of disruptor cells should do the trick in preventing warp. Where as bigger ships are more of a gamble on how many disruptor cells you want to bid for bigger core or based on visual size and make up of the ship potentially taking a whole lot more disruptor cells to fully negate the warp or shorten the distance of the jump by how many times you fire your disruptor.

 

Disruption should not be as much as an instant stop as much as another layer of guessing how far the player is going and being forced to PvP at a premium for the chance to extend PvP and not just an arbitrary I-Win button.

 

Another option is wear and tear on elements to do the same thing as your lowered speed limits. I have been a stong proponent of using an element like a door, swithc, pilot seat, and or that elements that constantly run like MUs, Industry units IUs, engines, warp drives, or whatever should either do DD or Dot and element based on use for grade/rarity as the HP=Efficiency in 1-100% hp pool which should lower performance based on use and require maintenence or repair or the over all stats on all elements in a construct degrade over time.

 

So in a sense using a warp drive should be like an endurance race like Lemans or Indy 500 in which it takes pit stops and the performance and handling degrade as the race, warp, or just general flight or element usage should suffer wear and tear or erosion over time to lower the HP on elements and thus lower the top speed of a ship maing it slower, have longer spool times, or work less efficiency overall the more you use it unless you repair the ship.

 

I also think NQ needs to adapt the destructive elements system so that when an element is destroyed it should have a random chance of being permanantly destroyed and at the very least lower the stats by 10% and increasing the chance that it is permanantly destroyed. But allowing players to restore whatever % it degrades via repairing it with the components its made out of as it should require the actual components it is constructed from to get it to the point that you can repair with scrap if you have them on hand or just repair with the cap of how much you can repair without replacing components or having major performance loss and a bigger chance of crashing or getting attacked again and destroing more of the ship permanantly or having further perfomance loss.

Edited by Warlander
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5 hours ago, Jake Arver said:

 

Actually, you pretty much can.. Maybe not 1 minute, but you can travel massive distances (way further than in DU) very quickly in EVE

There are several systems in EVE which wil lallow fast travel, including jump drives, Thera and filaments. And Wormholes are actually a pretty good way to get across the entire New Eden system fast, provided you have the right tools and information.

 

Yes there is thera and wormhole, but that is random.  And moving plated battleships is not easy, but yes sometimes get lucky.  But lets talk caps.  L core in DU is the biggest core, and i know its not a 1to1 comparision, but even with jump fatigue, good luck moving capitals across the map under 8 hours.  I know people that when there was probably guaranteed content and ask them to mid their caps 2 cynos., and were like :"too much work too long".  Which is a good thing because it stops major force projection.  It lets tons of mini battles and skirmishes happen and allows medium sized corps and alliances to have success.  Thats not gonna happen if TW opens up in DU as if someone wants to join a fight, they can bring their whole arsenal to every engagement if they want.  But ya sure, if you never want this game to take off and let civilizations forms on planets and let people be a bit seperated than ya we can see where this is going, and its not looking good.  

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