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Why I'm Leaving DU...


Megabosslord
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The guy took a big fat load right next to the pionneer zone, after he said his goodbye, let's not act like it wasn't a major tantrum throw and middlefinger to the folks that stayed.

 

You crash your ship into the horizontal sky needle you're very much entitled to let some insults fly.

 

I got something similar at market 17, but no reason to believe Sinnic is gonna abandon it so that's fine, also he's not at 1000m altitude.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/20/2022 at 7:04 AM, Kormolos said:

je n attends rien d interessant d une personne qui se fait appeler mega boss lord..... soigne ton ego mec, t es juste un trou du cul comme tout le monde.

Lol. Nice words from a dude who joined two months ago.  What a joker. 
 

MegaBossLord is (was? did he leave in the end?) one of the most prolific designers and builders in the game and his moniker is about as famous as it sounds. The bloke himself comes across as thoughtful and down to earth. But then you’d know that if you had read more before mouthing off.
 

And as for writing such a comment in French on an English language board, there is l’odeur distincte du Troll.

 

I do actually think that Panacea is a superior build to Demeter in that it takes a few tentative steps in the right direction and shows some evidence of listening to the players’ voices. 
 

whether this will be enough to stop the alarming egress of players is anyone’s guess. 
 

Our org, down from 50 at its peak to about three active players has seen one or two come back of late. But we are still way down from pre 0.23 numbers. 

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Population is obviously main problem of game, that outweights anything else like 99 to 1. 

 

I think only way to save game at this point  is to add NPCs for some quick action hook, both for old and new players. Anything else, like all this Panacea or Euthanasia, while it looks like improvment on paper, it not change global attractivness of game even within niche -- something it desperatly needs to survive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

Population is obviously main problem of game, that outweights anything else like 99 to 1. 

 

I think only way to save game at this point  is to add NPCs for some quick action hook, both for old and new players. Anything else, like all this Panacea or Euthanasia, while it looks like improvment on paper, it not change global attractivness of game even within niche -- something it desperatly needs to survive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree I was thinking about this last night. NPC hauler coming and going from random planets moons that people can attack and loot. I think that would be helpful add something new to do in the game. Making resources easier and quicker to obtain is a must. You want people to come back and new players to he happy then you need to increase the amount of ore a individual can acquire per hour. So that builders can build. You need to minimize or eliminate as many time sinks as possible. Nothing discourages gamers more than time sinks... Get rid of the taxes that was a bad idea. You need to focus on making the game easier to play so that people aren't spending all their game time try to scrap up resources. The game is all work and no play now so the faster they correct that the better more people will return. I think if you quit making the game so tedious no one wants to play players will return. These changes are more important than the staff realizes. 

Edited by Namcigam
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NPC “AI” is some of the hardest code to write. NQ are already struggling. Asking them to add NPCs would bog the game down too much. 
where would NPCs fly from and to?

woukd NOCs be able to avoid needle towers? Could you capture and destroy them by spawning constructs in front of them?

this game’s freedom makes it verrrry difficult to code adaptive behaviour for. 
 

I would love to see the sky dotted with ships like in Star Citizen but those ships are flying through a world created by themselves not by the players: a very different beast. 

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NQ could have had the best AI there is... from human players, but nope they change the open sandbox, took away the joy and fun while refusing to at least listen to the AIs, so now most of them are gone and we left with a barrow empty game.

 

perhaps the AI's are runnign a hotel somewhere...

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10 hours ago, Jinxed said:

NPC “AI” is some of the hardest code to write. NQ are already struggling. Asking them to add NPCs would bog the game down too much. 
where would NPCs fly from and to?

woukd NOCs be able to avoid needle towers? Could you capture and destroy them by spawning constructs in front of them?

this game’s freedom makes it verrrry difficult to code adaptive behaviour for. 
 

I would love to see the sky dotted with ships like in Star Citizen but those ships are flying through a world created by themselves not by the players: a very different beast. 

 

If that's the case its a dead horse but I remember the staff bringing it up like a poll question a while back. pvp'ers scoffed the idea made me think the devs had an idea on how to do that. One thing they could do is if the npc hauler makes it to safe space it "wins" lives to haul another day.. Im not suggesting atmosphere flight paths. that wouldnt go well at all. 

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14 hours ago, Jinxed said:

NPC “AI” is some of the hardest code to write.

 

JC has an PhD in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics, and founded and ran successful companies that worked in AI and robotics before he started on Dual Universe..

So they always had all the ingredients for making solid NPCs, but for some reason this did not jive with JC's idea on how the game should work.

 

And a space piloting 'AI' for example would be significantly easier to make, then a some character driven NPC that has to interact directly with players and the environment.

 

 

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This is one of many examples of DU's "innovation" where some simple phrase like "players do everything" sounds interesting at first, but quickly breaks down when you think about the details. 

 

DU's choice to not implement NPCs might be the biggest driver of game design failures, overall. 

 

Making it so that all combat is only PvP is a bold choice that would require a very experienced designer to meticulously plan around...

 

Unfortunately, with DU we got "novelty for the sake of novelty" rather than a planned, methodical design -- and people of course miss the typical gameplay that comes so easily when NPCs exist. The issue isn't the lack of NPCs per se but the lack of any other mechanic that provides similar engagement.

 

They ripped out a huge pillar without having supports to replace it. 

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11 hours ago, blundertwink said:

This is one of many examples of DU's "innovation" where some simple phrase like "players do everything" sounds interesting at first, but quickly breaks down when you think about the details. 

 

DU's choice to not implement NPCs might be the biggest driver of game design failures, overall. 

 

Making it so that all combat is only PvP is a bold choice that would require a very experienced designer to meticulously plan around...

 

Unfortunately, with DU we got "novelty for the sake of novelty" rather than a planned, methodical design -- and people of course miss the typical gameplay that comes so easily when NPCs exist. The issue isn't the lack of NPCs per se but the lack of any other mechanic that provides similar engagement.

 

They ripped out a huge pillar without having supports to replace it. 

 

I kinda agree.  NPCs that drop loot become Point of Interest for players to run into each other, creating that interaction MMOs are suppose to give. The more point of interest the better and more opportunities for people. Right now we only have a few asteroids but the "loot" they can drop is not unique, or often now worth the time and risk, as you can get it passively in the safe zone while not even online.  Terrible game design. 

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On 2/13/2022 at 6:50 PM, Jinxed said:

NPC “AI” is some of the hardest code to write. NQ are already struggling. Asking them to add NPCs would bog the game down too much. 
where would NPCs fly from and to?

woukd NOCs be able to avoid needle towers? Could you capture and destroy them by spawning constructs in front of them?

this game’s freedom makes it verrrry difficult to code adaptive behaviour for. 
 

I would love to see the sky dotted with ships like in Star Citizen but those ships are flying through a world created by themselves not by the players: a very different beast. 


Just don't make NPC ships physically enabled, they really can't anyways due to physics being handled client side anyways. Keep them in space, traveling between planets/points. Could even make them player controlled, could tell my NPC pilot to run to a planet to pickup an item from a parcel container, but- they can't warp, just slow boat back.. maybe even let them go down the pipes, it'd be apart of the risk of running NPC's out in PVP space. Tell an NPC to scout an asteroid for ya, let the AI spend 2 hours scouting, let me risk the ship and fuel.

Adding AI and NPC's to the game doesn't mean it needs to detract from the vision of the original game, a player built & controlled universe, this just gives the players more tools- and at the same time, gives the game more life without having random NPC's that are there just to fill the void and create "content"

The most ironic thing is, the games founder is known for... AI. Go figure. Plus, as it is, we were promised Pets/AI in the kickstarter, where is my repair droid?! :P

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Many good points have been made.

 

I hadn't even considered moving ships on invisible rails, now I definitly think NPC ships are within reach. Do a few of these with different purposes... Such as haulers that fly through pipes, and pirates that orbit around planets, space stations, fortresses hidden in deep space.

 

 

Then you add a few plants that can be picked up, and turned into temporary buffs.

 

Then you add a few animals that can be fought in AvA, either for bounties or other buffing ingredients. You don't need to simulate whole populations, you just need a gameplay loop/minigame that credibly spawns them in.

 

Why not fishing, all the other mmo have fishing...

 

 

It would still be a player driven game, we litterally shape the map, but it wouldn't be an empty game anymore, even if the encounters stay incredibly rare, at least you know there is something out there.

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I think DU/NQ proves that concept of "open world fully player driven mmo" (no NPCs) is currently beyond reach of mediocre indie studios and lead only to capital failure.

 

Because NPC in reality is like ultimate insurance tools against any flaws in disign or tech limitations (mostly by giving players endless hours to to grind something kinda "dynamic", keeping them busy and entertained). If you remove such vents, its many fold harder to keep players attention/interest.

 

So its probably idea challenging task even for titans of industry. You need at least:

 

1) huge stable population 

2) deep pvp/political layar (something like in eve)

3) rich and varied tools of world building and meaningful interaction between players;

 

DU currently lacks all of those.

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It's not question of it being out of reach of smaller budgets. If the only thing players can interract with is others players, it breeds cannibalism. You have to either design a game that is hardcore PVP, such as rust, or unite the players against the evironment (though technically all games that do that have far more gameloops than only player-player interractions).

 

What we have here is a game that is made on purpose so that things takes days, weeks or months. So NQ can cash in subscriptions, but also so ghat achievements feel meaningful, call it a cheap trick if you will, so are infinite ressources in creative mode... On that scale DU far further on the grindey side and that's ok. But nobody would want to play rust in such an environment unless they are pure masochist.

 

I have to wonder if JC truely imagined 9/10 players would coalesce into orgs that can maintain 24-7 allways active schedules and organize on the scale of tiny nations. Because TBH that sounds like a stupid pipedream to me, players are chaotic.

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2 hours ago, Overstimuloredom said:

It's not question of it being out of reach of smaller budgets.

 

Well, in perfect world -- no. In reality -- yes.

 

Money (to certain treshhold) still deciding factor in speed, ammount and quality of produced content. You need quite a lot of in MMO to survive. Sure, you can find a lot of hilarously bad (mismanaged or talentless) games with big budgets too (SC?), but you also not find Final Fantasy-like game made for 2 mil $ or something. There is limits, and in MMO scene they felt big way.

 

So its boiling back to start: chronic lack of pre-made "default" content. Average player who (what a suprise!) not gives two mucks about "player made content" (like another crappy empty building some nerd built 1000 hours) or engage in mockery of PvP (obviously to have wasted hours and days of work on ship) simply has nothing to do in DU. 

 

 

 

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You can have all the money and the programmers in the world, I still wouldn't bet on players engaging in actual nation founding. Rarely have I ever seen a better setup for dissappointment.

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10 minutes ago, Overstimuloredom said:

I still wouldn't bet on players engaging in actual nation 

 

Well, nations is kinda big PR talking, but large competitive guild aliances is totaly achievable. With politics and clowns and all kind of interesting stuff.

 

Yet, it demands certain delicate conditions DU nowhere near to provide.

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TBH, I remember the forums before DU alpha was released, the community came together to build massive orgs and orgs within orgs and there was a whole lot of scheming, spitballing and theorycrafting.

There was even a Youtuber "News" channel that reported on the current "events" of the time.

There were Gantt charts and 3D org connectivity webs showing alliances and crossovers between orgs and of course there were endless org "press releases" stating how many players, who had become legate, who had been kicked out etc.

 

it was all very dynamic with orgs rising and falling in the space of weeks and massive [filtered] waving contests to see who could inflate their org numbers with the most cannon fodder, I mean, members.

The massive compensatory egos on display were either tragic or hilarious depending upon one's standpoint.

But it honestly made me feel a bit sick inside when I actually read the banter, bluster and outright bombast, usually of grown men, many of whom were ex-military playing a game to ostensibly rebuild humanity and before it was even started were planning to burn it all to the ground and basically kill each other with mass warfare or political backstabbing.

I'm sure there is subset of the community to whom that kind of self-congratulatory member-stroking is enjoyable but it was basically all the toxicity of Eve without any checks and balances.
 

IMO, it's probably better this game never even got to the point where it could support such gameplay and in all likelyhood never will..

 

Just thinking about that gives the the ewws...

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It's is explicitly not about scale, but since we're at it:

 

 

300 tiles and you're talking something roughly the size of malta

 

There in 9 nations in the world with 5000 or less inhabitants.

 

 

 

What I am trying to say, and you seem to hellbent on interpreting differently:

 

If there is only player-player interractions, the endgame will necessarily and 100% revolve around PVP or rather org vs org. Given the slow pace of progress and how you can not protect your assets 24-7, it makes players dependant on an org that can impose some sense of lawfulness, basically assuming many functions of the nationstate. If there are only player-player interractions the game NEEDS to be that hardcore, but you are setting yourself up for dissapointment.

 

Much better to give the players things to do that do not necessarily revolve around other players, on top of all the things we were getting for a "player-driven universe". That way 99% of players don't feel compelled to cannibalise on eachother as sole source of entertainment. Progress is way too slow and labor intensive in this game for that to be fun.

 

 

Honestly how did we wind up arguing you seem to agree about the need for PVE.

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3 minutes ago, Jinxed said:

IMO, it's probably better this game never even got to the point where it could support such gameplay and in all likelyhood never will..

 

I think it is obvious that nation-building or civilization of any sort isn't going to work very well in an MMO without carefully designed structures and limits.

 

NQ would need to have an ongoing RP role within the game to make this work -- maybe they control the government or some hostile alien species. If any one org gets out of control...the NPC faction can rebalance the game without shattering immersion. 

 

The game would need DMs...I think it is unfortunate that MMOs don't typically have this sort of structure where staff have a role in facilitating RP because there is a viable middle ground between "player free for all" and "linear scripted storylines". 

 

Right now, DU has some of the worst immersion and lore of any sci-fi game I've ever played....even the premise of why people evacuated earth seems lazy. Humanity could have destroyed itself or rendered earth inhospitable...at least then there's a shred of narrative.

 

A neutron star colliding with the planet? Why not something more plausible like a comet or asteroid? A neutron star would sterilize the planet well before it hits -- any ship escaping would need to leave long before it arrives.

 

Beyond that admittedly small detail, it's puzzling that humanity's legacy is to create a society with zero laws on arrival -- space anarchy, but with taxes. There's no culture preserved, no lesson learned...just "hey we are here...let's build stuff I guess"...

 

Which I guess is a fitting theme for the game...a lack of purpose and direction... 

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55 minutes ago, Jinxed said:

IMO, it's probably better this game never even got to the point where it could support such gameplay and in all likelyhood never will..

 

Well, honestly I find sickeninly boring alternative (current) situation.

 

Like our ex-marines were sometimes (totaly) overboard, but at least they projected some life/drama into tapestry of collective space opera. War decralation here, spying scandal there, endless bragging with deadly cringe concentrations... Sure! 

 

Yet. Since funny guys died out, scene dominated like nerdy middle aged IT people, so boring with their "oh i built another voxel shit no one needs" or "this speed can be impoved 0.0000001% by replacing this element here", "i made 1 trillion quanta in 1 hour, but i need 10 trillion more to not be poor" -- plants likely dying in one room with them.

 

World story totaly castrated with such demography. DU now like some crippled bastard of Landmark thrown into far corner of space.

 

 

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