Weak economy for at least another month or two maybe?

[VandelayIndustries]

They literally stated in a video a long time ago that 30k was the cap because of server limitations.  30k is here to stay. 

[Aaron Cain]

The cap is 299 792 458 m / s and based on light speed so that cap is here to stay.

[OrionSteed]

I'm not the first to think of it, but I support a tiered taxation system.  Mining unit TU's would get taxed higher than "regular" TU's with industry, creative cores, etc.

[Wyndle]

If taxation is a requirement to keep the economy balanced then it would make more sense (logically and technically) to apply the taxes directly to units that produce (industry included); tiny amount on a per cycle basis rather than a blanket tax on property without regard for any other activity.  Even from a lore perspective this could be called an electric bill.

[Dyab0lix]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:27 PM, Wyndle said:

Sorry, but the root of the problem is that the initial game concept was designed around a free market which no longer exists and does not appear to be coming back

A centralised controlled market is such a limiting factor in a player driven open world... seems like such a crazy design choice to me. Imagine there wasnt markets at all, and players created their own shops and shopping malls etc. That would give soooo much more opportunity for interaction.

 

Literally the only time ive interacted with anyone else in this game was if they walked to the market computer i was going to and i had to turn slightly to the next one, or a mod came and freed me from glitching through the floor... or of course crashing into others ships or space towers.

 

The mechanics make it so other players are literally obstacles to avoid on your way to the centralised market, not something to interact with.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Dyab0lix

[Wyndle]

4 hours ago, Dyab0lix said:

The mechanics make it so other players are literally obstacles to avoid on your way to the centralised market, not something to interact with

This!  So this.

 

There are some player run markets but our tools for doing so pale in comparison to the centralized markets.  If we could set up our own market terminals in addition to dispensers it could be so much better.

[Dyab0lix]

One of the best examples of a player run economy ive seen is in a game i wont name out of respect for not advertising others here.. but in that one theres no central market, only a market scanner that tells you where things are located and the prices... everything bought and sold is in player made shops, and the community has built massive malls by sharing land claims etc that the community flocks to.... would work perfect in this game too with the xs static constructs, and be easy to make a mall and share space with RDMS etc. But theres no incentive to di that sort of thing, cause theres a centralised marketplace thats eaiser.

 

They also have a mechnic called footfall, where you get paid a small amount when another player runs over your land claim, which really encourages those community based builds. Something like that would give reason to create something that rivals the centralised market, but again, not a lot of incentive at the moment.

 

I didnt even know there was player made shops in DU apart from ship showrooms and fuel at marketplace landing pads. I assume thats another thing you can only really find out of game in discord etc. 

 

[VandelayIndustries]

1 hour ago, Dyab0lix said:

 

 

I didnt even know there was player made shops in DU apart from ship showrooms and fuel at marketplace landing pads. I assume thats another thing you can only really find out of game in discord etc. 

 

 

Ya NQ really screwed that up. They also released their beta with no way to generate quanta but sell to bots, and in the beginning people were exploiting hard selling things like honeycomb cause the talents gave so much and turned it into huge money maker.  We didnt have missions so they went with a market and bots on every single orbital body. Did nq really think each moon would have people selling shit? There wasn't anything to do but run your own factory early beta.  NQ can't see past their own nose that's just one of their many problems. But this game in its current form doesn't need to be single shard, as it has no redeemable features that require such a thing. And as shown by NQ they can't afford the servers so every development patch is to reduce server costs.  

[Kobayashi]

10 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

Ya NQ really screwed that up. They also released their beta with no way to generate quanta but sell to bots, and in the beginning people were exploiting hard selling things like honeycomb cause the talents gave so much and turned it into huge money maker.  We didnt have missions so they went with a market and bots on every single orbital body. Did nq really think each moon would have people selling shit? There wasn't anything to do but run your own factory early beta.  NQ can't see past their own nose that's just one of their many problems. But this game in its current form doesn't need to be single shard, as it has no redeemable features that require such a thing. And as shown by NQ they can't afford the servers so every development patch is to reduce server costs.  

Not strictly true, I made a FORTUNE at launch without ever selling to a single bot.  I still dont sell any ore at all, most of my money came from being the first player to sell CAT3 on Alioth and then selling T1 products at markets.  I have also sold a lot of stuff on other planets, mainly things like containers, T1 industry, territory units etc.

I do agree though that player made selling should be MUCH better supported in game.  Simply getting rid of the 'job board' and instead allowing players to place 30 day categorised ads for player made businesses would be a good start, adding details / specific icons to the map over and above the current 'open to players' icons!

Edited December 17, 2021 by Kobayashi

[VandelayIndustries]

1 hour ago, Kobayashi said:

Not strictly true, I made a FORTUNE at launch without ever selling to a single bot.  I still dont sell any ore at all, most of my money came from being the first player to sell CAT3 on Alioth and then selling T1 products at markets.  I have also sold a lot of stuff on other planets, mainly things like containers, T1 industry, territory units etc.

I do agree though that player made selling should be MUCH better supported in game.  Simply getting rid of the 'job board' and instead allowing players to place 30 day categorised ads for player made businesses would be a good start, adding details / specific icons to the map over and above the current 'open to players' icons!

 

Yes just because you did tho, didn't mean other people didn't make mass amounts selling to bots.

[Kobayashi]

12 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

with no way to generate quanta but sell to bots

Was specifically talking about 'no way' part, which is false, there were and still are plenty of ways.  I am still selling stuff T1 stuff when I log in that I listed 2 months ago......and I still dont sell much or (never sold a single ton of T1 ore)

Edited December 17, 2021 by Kobayashi

[VandelayIndustries]

3 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

Was specifically talking about 'no way' part, which is false, there were and still are plenty of ways.  I am still selling stuff T1 stuff when I log in that I listed 2 months ago......and I still dont sell much or (never sold a single ton of T1 ore)

 

For the game. There was no way for quanta to come into the game.  Until missions came out. There is the daily login but that isn't a gameloop to put quanta in the game.

[Kobayashi]

4 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

For the game. There was no way for quanta to come into the game.  Until missions came out. There is the daily login but that isn't a gameloop to put quanta in the game.

You cant discount the daily login though, as it DOES put money into the game and that money can then be spent on player generated gameloops like market product sales, ship sales etc.

Whilst I agree that a lot of people did either sell ore directly to bots, or make large quantities of products and sell to bots, there were MUCH better margins to be made selling to players.  I promise you I made a LOT more selling to players than anyone could have selling to bots with the same quantity of ore.

The biggest reason being that the majority of players didnt realise that people are lazy and didnt fly to the cheapest market, they flew to the closest.

[Wyndle]

4 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

The biggest reason being that the majority of players didnt realise that people are lazy and didnt fly to the cheapest market, they flew to the closest.

I was counting on that.  I still have some T1 elements at market 15 but sales have fallen off a cliff since JC left.  

 

It also helped some that market 6 is a nightmare for lag and/or parking.

[Kobayashi]

5 minutes ago, Wyndle said:

I was counting on that.  I still have some T1 elements at market 15 but sales have fallen off a cliff since JC left.  

 

It also helped some that market 6 is a nightmare for lag and/or parking.

At one point I was listing 100+ range of T1 item on all main Alioth markets and some outer ones and making a fortune.  Buying all my ore from a private supplier under market price.  Funny part was that my second best market for sales I was selling just under bot price for T1, which is pretty much the maximum price you can get for a T1 product.  D6 is actually a great place to sell all the stuff that other people dont, they do there for the expensive stuff and then just buy the rest anyway.  So again you can be selling at MAXIMUM margin and getting high volume.  Not sure JC leaving had much to do with it, 0.23 certainly did, which was NQ using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

[VandelayIndustries]

14 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

You cant discount the daily login though, as it DOES put money into the game and that money can then be spent on player generated gameloops like market product sales, ship sales etc.

Whilst I agree that a lot of people did either sell ore directly to bots, or make large quantities of products and sell to bots, there were MUCH better margins to be made selling to players.  I promise you I made a LOT more selling to players than anyone could have selling to bots with the same quantity of ore.

The biggest reason being that the majority of players didnt realise that people are lazy and didnt fly to the cheapest market, they flew to the closest.

 

That's completely irrelevant as I'm talking of money coming into the game. YOU SELLING ONLY TRANSFERS QUANTA IT DOES NOT CREATE IT. DU doesn't have npcs to attack and took them about a year for missions so at that time the major income of quanta was bots. Thus as we said going against the player run markers we were promised since kickstarter and even alpha. 

[VandelayIndustries]

Also where do you think all that money you made in early beta come from? It want daily logins that's for sure. It was people mass exploiting the bots. If you can't understand that then I can't help you.

[Wyndle]

7 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

Not sure JC leaving had much to do with it, 0.23 certainly did, which was NQ using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I suspect that JC leaving just happened to coincide with some of the delayed effects of 0.23.  I meant it as a time marker more so than a cause.

[Kobayashi]

2 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

Also where do you think all that money you made in early beta come from? It want daily logins that's for sure. It was people mass exploiting the bots. If you can't understand that then I can't help you.

It was three things, daily login, sorry but 150k injected daily into approx 10k players is a LOT of quanta, which ever way you look at it, ore sales to bots (which was the main source of generated income), then product sales to bots (which actually only added a small margin markup to ore selling).

The majority of people buying my stuff werent hardcore industry players, they were average Joe's mining a bit and selling ore.

Love the patronising last line..... the old trick of trying to devalue the argument through belittling the other party..... classy

[VandelayIndustries]

1 hour ago, Kobayashi said:

It was three things, daily login, sorry but 150k injected daily into approx 10k players is a LOT of quanta, which ever way you look at it, ore sales to bots (which was the main source of generated income), then product sales to bots (which actually only added a small margin markup to ore selling).

The majority of people buying my stuff werent hardcore industry players, they were average Joe's mining a bit and selling ore.

Love the patronising last line..... the old trick of trying to devalue the argument through belittling the other party..... classy

 

10,000 x 150k = 1.5 bil.  x 30days is only 45bil.  But that is spread out so no it didnt really matter.  And as numbers showed a lot of those people quit after 30 days.  Huge drops on twitch from streamers too trying out the new game.  BOTS from ore and people exploiting selling honeycomb and other things was how quanta was introduced.  These are facts.