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So the economy is already starting to crash what now?


Warlander

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Prices on everything are plummiting now that you need to sell as much as possible without a resource sink to take ore/parts out of the system vs flooding it to cover the Quanta Taxes.

 

Do you think we need to bring back the old ore manipulation system?

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This update is bad roll back scrap it 

go back two old mining and do youer job stop taking the easey way out just make un claimed land heal over time or do a land reset monthly or weekly  we should not be redesign the game at this point in development what are you doing NQ  are you tring two distroy youer game no one likes this 

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It's not really a crash because the prices were briefly inflated, it's more like a correction. But I think we do need more element destruction (when crashing), maybe even durability on some active elements like industry units.

 

They can't and won't bring back the old ore mining underground, they said it was not sustainable. Move to space and mine asteroids if you must.

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13 minutes ago, Haunty said:

It's not really a crash because the prices were briefly inflated, it's more like a correction. But I think we do need more element destruction (when crashing), maybe even durability on some active elements like industry units.

 

They can't and won't bring back the old ore mining underground, they said it was not sustainable. Move to space and mine asteroids if you must.

 

For sure the mining system was laggy and created more problems then it solved and was unsustainable. The issue is they claimed performance then put all the ore in space as a substitue to keep the same system they said was causing unsustainable performance so that they totally didnt have to fully nix it.

 

But the real issue is the gap in ore loss and the fact that asteroids are only a fri-sun feature. The problem is the loss of 4-600kl a day in production and replaced with a carnival game to time lock ore production when we already get 1/5-1/15th the ore we used to and now need to travel to multiple territories to get marginal universal basic ore per day like a login bonus with no real effort other than doing pick ups and running mini game to then go chase down the ore in a redundant fashion if the ore just spawned per hour like it should.

 

The issue is not having any sinks to take ore out of the game as it is being generated and once everyone has their mining ops set up, asteroid runners, etc you dont need more ship parts as nothing really leaves the system beyond some random PvP destroying elements every three fights if you lose. Without industry or mining units using some kind of consumable via repairs or drill bits eventually there will be infinite supply with no demand. But its the same with every game that uses infinite spawns and drops.

 

But as far as auto mining goes the issue is the lack of needing to do much as it does not conform to existing systems as much as it just creates a new layer of potential content gates with action based time unit charges that could be applied to all systems along with then adding a mini game to all systems that further slows down gameplay that can again be applied to all system in the game.

 

The old voxel way of mining is out but in reality wether its the old voxel representation of the ore node or a stack of ore with 1,000,000 in an inventory window you can put miners on we still lost a lot of potential ore per day. Im not asking to not have to do anything as I see rock mining as the same thing as physically mining the voxels as spawning better rocks on the ground that you eventually have to collect anyhow from the mini game being an over elaborate way of taking nodes and just spawning the L/H directly on the ground.

 

Either way this new system needs to be streamlined. I plan to do all aspects of the game asteroid mining is only for the weekends what about the rest of the week? Sure ill run missions in the meantine but you can still mine rocks in VR and drop it off in a box while running missions even if you cant link to a box you can still use one.

 

The main thing about this patch I dislike the most is it pretty much kills the mining talent tree since you can do the same thing as any Talent type with minimal to no talent investment. Its not like you can go into industry on a whim since you need schematics and like 5 years worth of talents. You could fly a ship but without heavy investment or the put downs your not really going to get anywhere without crashing. But yet you can basically dwarf miners and the mining talent tree with quanta.

 

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1 hour ago, Haunty said:

It's not really a crash because the prices were briefly inflated, it's more like a correction. But I think we do need more element destruction (when crashing), maybe even durability on some active elements like industry units.

 

They can't and won't bring back the old ore mining underground, they said it was not sustainable. Move to space and mine asteroids if you must.

It probably is a correction, however the mining system appears to be based on the old prices.  See this:  

 

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3 hours ago, Haunty said:

It's not really a crash because the prices were briefly inflated, it's more like a correction. But I think we do need more element destruction (when crashing), maybe even durability on some active elements like industry units.

 

They can't and won't bring back the old ore mining underground, they said it was not sustainable. Move to space and mine asteroids if you must.

exactly, durability on industry units and a storage element that holds replacement units that are automatically used to replace out of order ones without interrupting the industry. Thats the only real way that keeps the market for industry units alive and provides a reasonable ressource sink (which is what we need, not arbitrary quanta sinks)

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If game needs a resource sinks:

- introduce material Efficiency to industry. That is the case in real industry. Then every industry phase takes small amount of resources out off the game.

- introduce recycle indy unit, with input vs. output efficiency

 

We also need to remember that there are lots of resource sinks already:

- bots buying ore takes it out of system. Everything bots buy will go out of system

- Ships burning fuel is material sink

- Warp cell when used go out

- ammo (when used)

- all pvp damage to voxels

- element damage is already resource sink, because scrap go out of system when used

 

If someone really wants to make industry more tedious again, then introduce wear. How ever instead of shallow wear system:

- make possible to select how fast indy unit is producing

 - If it runs fast or at full speed it will wear, but if slower speed is selected it will not get damaged.

 - Efficiency can be lower if speed is higher

 

Same with engines. Similar to EVE

- introduce possibility to overheat engines to gain more power. Overheating will wear enginez

 

And as said recycle unit could be efficient resource sink if introduced.

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Warlander said:

Prices on everything are plummiting now that you need to sell as much as possible without a resource sink to take ore/parts out of the system vs flooding it to cover the Quanta Taxes.

 

Do you think we need to bring back the old ore manipulation system?

 

It is not the mining system.

 

Problem is weekly taxes.

It forces players to sell ore to cover loss of quanta.

This TAX system is overkill and it must go away

 

 

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5 hours ago, Warlander said:

 

For sure the mining system was laggy and created more problems then it solved and was unsustainable. The issue is they claimed performance then put all the ore in space as a substitue to keep the same system they said was causing unsustainable performance so that they totally didn't have to fully nix it.

 

This was all about reducing server, and network load  (I think local caching as well but that doesn't cost NQ anything). Going from 10s of thousands (and growing) of territories with extensive mining tunnels to a small number (controlled by NQ) of asteroids is a big cost saving win. In my opinion, JC showed his inexperience by not working the numbers that would have shown this was going to be a problem long ago.  The Demeter mining system requires very little state per mined territory (the number which is limited by the calibration charges each player can have in conjunction with a tax system that gives incentive to claim territories that are only actively mined).

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7 hours ago, Warlander said:

Prices on everything are plummiting now that you need to sell as much as possible without a resource sink to take ore/parts out of the system vs flooding it to cover the Quanta Taxes.

 

Do you think we need to bring back the old ore manipulation system?

Crashing back to ...... still twice the price everything was 3 months ago???  Not sure people selling some of the stuff they have been hoarding is a bad thing.

5 hours ago, Warlander said:

But the real issue is the gap in ore loss and the fact that asteroids are only a fri-sun feature.

 

Have you ever mined roids? Serious question, you seem to talk about it a lot but dont really seem to know much about it.  I went out this morning (Wednesday) and got 20M very quickly? 

You do seem to like causing a panic......

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5 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

Crashing back to ...... still twice the price everything was 3 months ago???  Not sure people selling some of the stuff they have been hoarding is a bad thing.

Have you ever mined roids? Serious question, you seem to talk about it a lot but dont really seem to know much about it.  I went out this morning (Wednesday) and got 20M very quickly? 

You do seem to like causing a panic......

 

Lol you people. Im just trying to point out how broken this system is.

 

Yeah we tried asteroids and went back to what we were doing.

 

Why run roids when we were pulling 800-1.4 mil kl per day and were still finding mega nodes left and right. Why run roids when we could mine and run missions at the same time while scanning at the same time via VR?

 

Eventually we will get around to asteroid mining, but until then its about scanning and expanding our mining opperation to scale up to 5 L containers worth of ore per day. Or running physical missions while blowing charges in VR, Scanning in VR, or mining rocks while traveling and still pulling 100kl per person doing so. Pulling 5 L containers per day, 120-150kl in charges every 1.5 days, 21miil per mission round trip, and like 10-20kl per hour mining rocks, and roids on fri-sat.

 

I see this patch as a minor setback. Eventually we will be making 3x what we were making. We set up our mining op so that even if T1 ore hits 20h-L or T2 hits 50h-L we still profit doing even less then we were before. /shrug

 

If we want to need even more its not hard to park a roid runner like 20SU off the mission lane and rez over on a friday night and hunt roids and then in the meantime still run scanners in VR, Burn charges in VR, Still Miner rocks in VR, Mine roids in VR, and just flood the market with ore. Even T1 VR mining talents are like T5 with the mining units since two scoops = 1hr output.

 

Unlimited supply with limited demand and industries constantly churning out unlimited products and people only having a limited amount of cores to need things out of the market is a bad combination if you have to sell to cover quanta sinks with no resource sink taking it all out or reinstituting the ore manipulation script on markets.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Warlander said:

 

Lol you people. Im just trying to point out how broken this system is.

 

Yeah we tried asteroids and went back to what we were doing........... 

You people?  What people, please explain.  You are a quite patronising, do you realise that?

You could have just said, "no I dont do roids, so actually have no idea whether there is a time limit to their viability."

Instead you make another long winded post, of no relevance to deflect from my original question.

Are you a politician?

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5 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

You people?  What people, please explain.  You are a quite patronising, do you realise that?

You could have just said, "no I dont do roids, so actually have no idea whether there is a time limit to their viability."

Instead you make another long winded post, of no relevance to deflect from my original question.

Are you a politician?

 

Yes I have mined roids and found that there were more multi profitable options to mining asteroids. If im going to hunt them its going to be when they repop on the weekends and run missions during the week to maximize profit vs effort. 

 

You can take the words however you want im simply amazed at how much this game allows you to do simultainously and pointing out how much you can do to make money 5 ways at once or more that is equal or better running missions vs asteroids when they are most plentiful. Its more pointing it all out so other people can capitalize better on the options available. 

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The other amusing thing is you dont seem to have any idea the REAL reason why the ore price has shit the bed is.  Several MAJOR ore whales that have been hoarding ore for many months and artificially holding the price high, mainly to ensure products like warp cells retain high value, have all started dumping ore before they lost a TON of quanta (as they have been buying at high prices for some time).  I know this, because I have dealt with them since early alpha.

To quote one "it was fun whilst it lasted"

Couple that with the MASSES of additional ore mined by players clearing out mega nodes before the patch, which was also dumped.  THESE are the reasons why it has plummeted.  The people worrying about paying taxes lol, they have ZERO effect on the market.  The players who effect the market, could stop playing for six months and still not worry about taxes.

You people......lol, some of us know more than you think.

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Easy one

 

Missions so much harder to do unless you were the ones already loading your alts and flying it around = less Quanta.  Orgs did a big run for everyone not just mass alts.

 

Secondly ore prices were hyper inflated.  Ore used to be for T1 18-25 per unit.  T2 60 per unit and so on so in theory its stabalizing.

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15 minutes ago, Honvik said:

 

Easy one

 

Missions so much harder to do unless you were the ones already loading your alts and flying it around = less Quanta.  Orgs did a big run for everyone not just mass alts.

 

Secondly ore prices were hyper inflated.  Ore used to be for T1 18-25 per unit.  T2 60 per unit and so on so in theory its stabalizing.

 

The only thing left is to make PvP a thing to take items out of the game.

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