Did We Really Free Up Land With Taxes?

[Creator]

Initially during the whole debate on taxes, I had people flaming me over having 20 tiles and that no single player needed that, when I was trying to save my resort.

Now that I am back in the rat race with everyone else instead of spending my time building (currently baby sitting MUs & scanning tiles for min/max resource pools vs doing what I love)... I own 35 tiles, plus another 5HQ tiles for some smaller building projects. Essentially just to have a steady income to survive and not be left behind, I have been forced to hold more land and double my land footprint, and do so in some pretty ugly areas to create mineral fields, just to sustain my previous way of life in the game.

I feel that the way Dementor is balanced has really failed resolving land hoarding.

[Novean-61657]

Just before the Demeter launch a bunch of players already abandoned their tiles, I picked up a couple of them.

 

As pre-Demeter tiles have a 13-14 day tax free period, then the abandonment process starts. But indeed, previously my 4 accounts held 7 tiles, now it's 100+ tiles. I expect that when we hit 2022, it's more like 150-200 tiles and eventually around 350-400 (and depending how certain concepts go, maybe significantly more).

 

I feel like I'm playing a cross between Civilization 5 or 6 and Slumlord Simulator 2021... ?

 

The problem some people had was that so many corps/people claimed tiles once and never touched them (or released them). With so many people having left active DU play, that means a huge number of tiles are never going to be used again, but no one can ever get to them until Territory Warfare is introduced when hell freezes over... With Demeter this has been fixed. If you're not generating quanta (some way) you're not going to keep claiming those tiles.

 

With Demeter less then a week live, we're already seeing huge price dips. Natron is making a dive for the floor, 30%+ lower prices, X-1 Fuel 20-30% lower prices. I'm seeing similar things happening with T1 ores as well (currently not really interested yet in T3+ ores). There comes a time when automining for quanta isn't going to be very profitable anymore, especially when you're mostly doing T1 ores, and don't have max skills. People will drop out of the automing loop at  that point. Less supply, higher prices, people step back in, rince-repeat. Eventually you'll get a balance that people are not mining for profit. Or can only do that in big efficient setups with max skills. That is when you'll see a lot of land freeing up again.

[Zarcata]

1 hour ago, Creator said:

Initially during the whole debate on taxes, I had people flaming me over having 20 tiles and that no single player needed that, when I was trying to save my resort.

Now that I am back in the rat race with everyone else instead of spending my time building (currently baby sitting MUs & scanning tiles for min/max resource pools vs doing what I love)... I own 35 tiles, plus another 5HQ tiles for some smaller building projects. Essentially just to have a steady income to survive and not be left behind, I have been forced to hold more land and double my land footprint, and do so in some pretty ugly areas to create mineral fields, just to sustain my previous way of life in the game.

I feel that the way Dementor is balanced has really failed resolving land hoarding.

with how many accounts you are playing?

[Creator]

4 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

with how many accounts you are playing?

 

1

[CptLoRes]

4 hours ago, Cergorach said:

That is when you'll see a lot of land freeing up again.

And that most likely means players leaving the game.

 

So once again like with 0.23, NQ has managed to drive away players with their "game saving" features. Makes you wonder how many more "features" this game can survive..

[Snipey]

1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

And that most likely means players leaving the game.

 

So once again like with 0.23, NQ has managed to drive away players with their "game saving" features. Makes you wonder how many more "features" this game can survive..

Saying "Feature" would mean they added something to the game rather than shifted around the poo

[Novean-61657]

18 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

And that most likely means players leaving the game.

Not necessarily, just because an activity is currently no longer 'profitable', doesn't mean people leave. If that was the case, EVE would have died out over a decade ago. They move on to another activity that is profitable. And there are other activities then automining and pve missioning...

[vylqun]

On 11/28/2021 at 10:29 PM, Cergorach said:

JAs pre-Demeter tiles have a 13-14 day tax free period, then the abandonment process starts. But indeed, previously my 4 accounts held 7 tiles, now it's 100+ tiles. I expect that when we hit 2022, it's more like 150-200 tiles and eventually around 350-400 (and depending how certain concepts go, maybe significantly more).

 

very very unlikey, please remember, that ore doesnt equal quanta, all the quanta that comes into the system that you would need to support more than one active hex has to be earned by mission runners or market bots. And no matter how much the mission system is exploited with alts, they certainly can't run enough missions to have the majority of players sustain 10+ active hexes. Mining T1 to sell to bots as revenue stream will also have only a small impact, as a hex with 3 MU makes only 150% of the taxes, thus you would required 6MU to finance a single extra hex. Seeing how limited calibration charges are, this can not be effectively scaled.

 

The only players with loads of hexes later on will be those with T4/T5, maybe, and thats a big maybe, T3. 

[Warlander]

I really dont know at this point if NQ is stupid, sadistic, or if they just have lemming yes men & women who are all collectively dumb,

 

Honestly they could have just gone with the old system that made sense that compounded as you bought more talents and just charged people like 150k tax per week per tile and it essentially would have done the same thing. Since its 150k NQ didnt need HQ tiles if you simply logged in 7 days a week you get 7 free tiles unless you want more then you pay escalting drop costs and a modest upkeep to prevent land grabbing rather than "you get more ore then you pay in taxes".

 

Then just add a sink for miners to trade the taxes with a resource sink like a drill bit that keeps the ore market moving with tiers that focus or balance liters per hour, -time, or duration of drill bits that use a combination of ore per tier so we can buff the units or use bits slower or faster.

 

This would have done the same thing and got quanta out of the game and instead of just flooding the market with ore nobody needs and instead keeps the market moving since charges are pretty much drill bits only they use some artifical action time unit rather than a drill bit.

 

And you dont need charges or mini games if you just make all the ore it generates on the ground since the actual output is garbage vs the mini gam and eventually you have to pick it up on the ground so just put it on the ground without the BS.

 

They should have treated mining units like industry units instead of treating MUs like some kind of carnival novelty game. Imagine if Industry had this type of red tape in the sense that you had to drop a TU, put down a static core, and you could only put down like 7-12 industry units, you could only make 4-6 products per tile, you could only craft 500 times per hour max, you had to play a mini game to spawn parts around your tile, and pay 1 mil for industry on top of mining units? 

 

Its stupid for sure but you could apply the MU logic to any part of the game. Why not make piltoing part of the charge system so you take a breathalizer test to start the ship and it spawns gas in your tile, Play some kind of reloading mini game every time you want to launch a missle, fire a chain gun, shoot a lazer, etc. Why not add some kind of crane mini game any time you want to transfer inventory from one container to another. Its stupid and nobody would want to do this crap on any other playstyle experience so why even bring the system into the game?

 

Then why need 100 tiles per person anyways? NQ didnt think to go one step further in mining units to adapt the old mining system into the new one. Before this we had finite ore pools and all they needed to do was have ore respawn randomly to simulate the old tile structure and instead of voxels they just needed ore stacks in an inventory that are essentially nodes. Had they put the inventory in the first screen on the MUs you could of clicked on coal or whatever and had like 50 stack nodes of coal you could put a miner on, or multiple miners on 1 tile and not need 100 tiles with 700 miners if you just needed a handful of tiles with hundreds of miners each like industry.

 

If NQ would have stuck with a finite pool then just randomly generated different ores or ore amounts via stacks of ore you can put miners on its better than sub prime mortgage tiles that should be different as time goes on. Had they had finite ore pools, hundreds of node stacks and miners you had to watch as a 4kl stack of ore wouldnt take long to mine vs a 1mil ore stack you need more units on like the old system without voxels. You could litterally just spawn all the ore on the tile on the surface and with needing drill bits it justifys the ore spawn with a sink.

 

Its infintely better then whatever demeter was designed to do by doing the same thing but better.

[Underhook]

I (1 account) had 16 territories (not including Sanct) before Demeter and now I have 11 but may need to reduce that to 10 (5 are currently HQ).  I dont use adjacency currently as ore prices dont cover the cost.  I might get more territory if ore prices go up.   I was essentially holding a territory in many planets so I could move depending on wars etc.  I didnt realise how far off territory war was.

With that said, if ore prices keep dropping I may have to remove them all.  I put 20K of garnerite on the market last night at 391 (just a bit higher than the lowest price, this morning the price is 271 (large amount)

[Thunderblaze]

I have something like over 135 tiles for just myself now. Demeter caused me to go into a land grab mode.

[Underhook]

12 hours ago, Warlander said:

I really dont know at this point if NQ is stupid, sadistic, or if they just have lemming yes men & women who are all collectively dumb,

 

Honestly they could have just gone with the old system that made sense that compounded as you bought more talents and just charged people like 150k tax per week per tile and it essentially would have done the same thing. Since its 150k NQ didnt need HQ tiles if you simply logged in 7 days a week you get 7 free tiles unless you want more then you pay escalting drop costs and a modest upkeep to prevent land grabbing rather than "you get more ore then you pay in taxes".

 

Then just add a sink for miners to trade the taxes with a resource sink like a drill bit that keeps the ore market moving with tiers that focus or balance liters per hour, -time, or duration of drill bits that use a combination of ore per tier so we can buff the units or use bits slower or faster.

 

This would have done the same thing and got quanta out of the game and instead of just flooding the market with ore nobody needs and instead keeps the market moving since charges are pretty much drill bits only they use some artifical action time unit rather than a drill bit.

 

And you dont need charges or mini games if you just make all the ore it generates on the ground since the actual output is garbage vs the mini gam and eventually you have to pick it up on the ground so just put it on the ground without the BS.

 

They should have treated mining units like industry units instead of treating MUs like some kind of carnival novelty game. Imagine if Industry had this type of red tape in the sense that you had to drop a TU, put down a static core, and you could only put down like 7-12 industry units, you could only make 4-6 products per tile, you could only craft 500 times per hour max, you had to play a mini game to spawn parts around your tile, and pay 1 mil for industry on top of mining units? 

 

Its stupid for sure but you could apply the MU logic to any part of the game. Why not make piltoing part of the charge system so you take a breathalizer test to start the ship and it spawns gas in your tile, Play some kind of reloading mini game every time you want to launch a missle, fire a chain gun, shoot a lazer, etc. Why not add some kind of crane mini game any time you want to transfer inventory from one container to another. Its stupid and nobody would want to do this crap on any other playstyle experience so why even bring the system into the game?

 

Then why need 100 tiles per person anyways? NQ didnt think to go one step further in mining units to adapt the old mining system into the new one. Before this we had finite ore pools and all they needed to do was have ore respawn randomly to simulate the old tile structure and instead of voxels they just needed ore stacks in an inventory that are essentially nodes. Had they put the inventory in the first screen on the MUs you could of clicked on coal or whatever and had like 50 stack nodes of coal you could put a miner on, or multiple miners on 1 tile and not need 100 tiles with 700 miners if you just needed a handful of tiles with hundreds of miners each like industry.

 

If NQ would have stuck with a finite pool then just randomly generated different ores or ore amounts via stacks of ore you can put miners on its better than sub prime mortgage tiles that should be different as time goes on. Had they had finite ore pools, hundreds of node stacks and miners you had to watch as a 4kl stack of ore wouldnt take long to mine vs a 1mil ore stack you need more units on like the old system without voxels. You could litterally just spawn all the ore on the tile on the surface and with needing drill bits it justifys the ore spawn with a sink.

 

Its infintely better then whatever demeter was designed to do by doing the same thing but better.

YES people are not dumb.  They are smart people who want to keep their job.  Management that encourages and fosters yes people is dumb.

I was a fairly new arival at a company and I was in a state sales meeting.  The general manager expressed his dismay that people were not speaking up in meetings and that we needed more input from the "team".    So, the next meeting when he asked for feedback, I gave some.  He tore strips off me and told me I was an idiot.  He started giving me a funny look because ....... I was laughing uncontrollably.

[Underhook]

3 minutes ago, Thunderblaze said:

I have something like over 135 tiles for just myself now. Demeter caused me to go into a land grab mode.

Wow.  I guess that makes sense if you have a lot of quanta and I might have done the same.  It would seem this update really favours people who have amassed fortunes.  At the start of demeter I had 52 million quanta.  Now I have around 15 ( spent a lot on MU etc) and ore prices are dropping.