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Full Wipe? or Why I would return to DU after Release


JayleBreak

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28 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:


You could comment on my 7 points, explaining how each of those is optional for the game to be successful.


If you elobrate your points in more detail we might can discuss it here.
But to say "sustainable economy" or "Stuff to explore" is like saying "We need to do something about the climatic problem on earth" and then claim to found the problem of the climatic change just by pointing at it.

I totally agree that we need a sustainable economy in DU, and i totally agree it would be cool to have stuff to explore.
But this stuff to explore need to fit the DevelopmentTime/PlayerSatisfaction ration which is worth it. And to make such a system is not that easy. They could just place some structures here and there in space you can explore, then you explore them and then what? Probably could be easy if you have a team of 10 Heads just dedicated to build stuff to explore and systems for it which makes it fun in the long term.


The thing is to say what NQ already knows is no valueable help if you dont keep factors like budget in mind.

Its like if you have 2 kids and booth want a car from you. But you only have 1k Dollar, so you get them booth a bicycle. And that is what NQ is doing right now. They find compromises.

PS: Just readed your "DU is BORING" post
The points at "Easy" (VoIP is not really a easy thing in Uni engine i think) are more like personal taste things.
I like the slow paste of crafting and traveling. Mining tho has been replaced now anyway.
"Moderate" and "Hard" are still some very expensive features to add while i also disagree that a creative mode would make DU greater as it kills a bit the immersion i think. But why not. If it gets more new player in DU it might be cool.



 

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5 minutes ago, Scavenger said:


If you elobrate your points in more detail we might can discuss it here.
 


Do you belive fast travel is not needed for the game to be successful?
Do you belive that crafting anything, no matter how basic it is, should require a schematic

After you answer this, I will ask more.

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2 hours ago, Cergorach said:

How familiar are you with EU consumer laws and regulations?

Not very, you?  I live in Australia a country with perhaps some of the strictest consumer law in the world.  The Australian ACCC is the only reason STEAM offer a refund for games.

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9 hours ago, Jeronimo said:

to all the people still whining about a wipe!!!! Jun 20, 2020 JC interview right before Beta release

 

While whatever JC did or did not say is really irrelevant at this time as he is no longer with NQ after nearly drivingthe company off of  a cliff.

That said, the message about another full wipe has been one of the few consistent ones NQ has managed to stick to. I really do not think a full wipe can be done again, that option went off the table the moment  NQ started charging money for access. A partial wipe with talent points back to the pool and blueprints for your constructs though, I expect is highly likely to happen sometime closer to release but for obvious reasons, while I am pretty sure they made up their mind on this, NQ will not confirm or deny this until they get closer to the moment in time this is planned for.

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On 11/28/2021 at 8:47 PM, Cergorach said:

A: Why I (after 1+ years of paying for subscriptions) would leave DU permanently if a full wipe happens and would look at the possibility of taking legal action for the lost time=money and actual lost money.

 

LOL.. you would be laughed out of court

There is NO guarantee of a wipe NOT occuring, in fact, NQ has ALWAYS left that option open

It can _easily_ be argued that as you retain blueprints and your acrued talent points (which really is the only time driven asset you have in game).

 

NQ is muddying up the argument by seemingly not even understanding it themselves. There really is not anyone arguing a full wipe woud be a good thing. Personally, I think that becasue NQ started charging for access, they close dthe door on a full wipe

But even if they'd do a full wipe, you woudl not stand a chance in court,

 

 

17 hours ago, Cergorach said:

How familiar are you with EU consumer laws and regulations?

It seems you yourself really do not understand  that very well..  EU consumer law wil not help you here as NQ woudl not break any promises or commitments if they were to wipe. and what I suspect you refer to here does actually not apply anyway.

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They will need a wipe or at the very least a rollback to fix the mining unit system but a wipe is the easier of the two options.

 

The mining system is cumersome, creates travel sinks, tiles and bases spread out too far, incentivises land grabs with no real upward limit, adds pointless mini game no other system uses, breaks the flow of the game, forces active gameplay, creates action time units with charges and is redundant and pointless when what the miners actually mine is nothing compared to the mini game might as well just spawn on the ground since its what it should do in the first place without all the BS.

 

Its either they streamline mining units and adapt the old mining system framework into mining units with having ore node stacks you can put one or more miners on hundreds of nodes per tile like how it should have been to make mining units more like traditional mining and instead of mining voxels it just generates ore per hour on multiple nodes but still requires effort to mine the rocks it spawns instead of playing the mini game to do the same thing.

 

Systems like mini games or action based time unit charges take DU down a dark path since you either need to turn all systems in the game like the carnival mini game to do anything or make everything else in the game work off action time unit charges which is just more pointless time grind followed up with grind.

 

Either way something drastic needs to change or be streamlined to the point it will change the landscape of the game. You shouldnt need 100 tiles and just one tile with 100 nodes and 100 miners on it in one central location and treated like industry that just spawns whats in the ground on the surface for you to mine since you cant mine it via voxels.

 

That will require a wipe imo but this new mining system is completely backwards.

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You are not wrong @Triopalite

 

NQ has moved away from the original concept of DU in a massive way, well actually they never managed to get close really.

 

The problem for me is that they wasted so much time trying to make stuff work that just wouldn't and never just said, we need a new plan an moved on. Had they done that and had they picked up on some of the excellent ideas and options the community provided the game would be in much better state right now.

Thing is, you can keep telling everyone that they "do not understand" but if you do not see the value in suggestions and adjust to the pattern of what working on what can be achieved as opposed to what can't even if you'd really like to, it is in fact you who really does not get it and you go nowhere very quickly.

 

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56 minutes ago, Warlander said:

They will need a wipe or at the very least a rollback to fix the mining unit system but a wipe is the easier of the two options.

 

The mining system is cumersome, creates travel sinks, tiles and bases spread out too far, incentivises land grabs with no real upward limit, adds pointless mini game no other system uses, breaks the flow of the game, forces active gameplay, creates action time units with charges and is redundant and pointless when what the miners actually mine is nothing compared to the mini game might as well just spawn on the ground since its what it should do in the first place without all the BS.

 

Its either they streamline mining units and adapt the old mining system framework into mining units with having ore node stacks you can put one or more miners on hundreds of nodes per tile like how it should have been to make mining units more like traditional mining and instead of mining voxels it just generates ore per hour on multiple nodes but still requires effort to mine the rocks it spawns instead of playing the mini game to do the same thing.

 

Systems like mini games or action based time unit charges take DU down a dark path since you either need to turn all systems in the game like the carnival mini game to do anything or make everything else in the game work off action time unit charges which is just more pointless time grind followed up with grind.

 

Either way something drastic needs to change or be streamlined to the point it will change the landscape of the game. You shouldnt need 100 tiles and just one tile with 100 nodes and 100 miners on it in one central location and treated like industry that just spawns whats in the ground on the surface for you to mine since you cant mine it via voxels.

 

That will require a wipe imo but this new mining system is completely backwards.

Or you could just get a few tiles, plonk some miners down and head into space and do proper mining on roids???  Not sure why people think autominers should replace ground mining.  Really not sure that is the intention.

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What does "release" even mean...? The game won't be feature-complete by then (which they confirmed explicitly) -- and you can't balance a game when core features aren't even done unless you have a very carefully laid out plan, which isn't NQ's thing. 

 

A wipe at "release" would only set the stage for the next round of exploits and issues and imbalances caused by their "closed alpha" style of development where it's fun to try out major changes on production and see where things land. 

 

Suing a game because it broke its "promises" is such a waste of time even if you could win.

 

The time you "invested" in DU is called the entertainment you paid for...even if a court took you seriously (they wouldn't lol), there's much better ways to deal with your dissatisfaction with this entertainment product that doesn't waste public resources. I can't think of a less important case than "a video game broke their promises". 

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21 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

existing players will probably think "Been there, done that, don't really want to start a new playthrough, I'll go play another game".  

About 300 ppl (300*6 = 1,800$ per month for subs). Don't matter. It's a pocket change.

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1 hour ago, Kobayashi said:

Or you could just get a few tiles, plonk some miners down and head into space and do proper mining on roids???  Not sure why people think autominers should replace ground mining.  Really not sure that is the intention.

 

Why think auto miners should replace ground mining is because it replaced ground mining with a sub par replacement that needs to be streamlined and made more like the old system or adhere to the same principals as the thought they put into industry once upon a time.

 

Its better to not have auto mining then use it since it does not perform in any quantity without needing 70-105 tiles to do the exact same thing I was able to do in 1 tile.

 

I am not asking for anything for free as it should take effort to mine regardless and just getting strait to the point by spawning ore on the ground with the miners to the extent I used to be able to do for free with proper sinks is an acceptable tradeoff.

 

This new system is intentionally cumbersome in every aspect for no real reason.

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4 hours ago, blundertwink said:

What does "release" even mean...? The game won't be feature-complete by then (which they confirmed explicitly) -- and you can't balance a game when core features aren't even done unless you have a very carefully laid out plan, which isn't NQ's thing.

 

That's a major point and an issue that is very fair.

 

The general industry standard is:

 

Pre Alpha

The entire concept is in development, there is no gameplay yet and it's really more  astage where the devs define and design what can be achieved and roughly how

 

Alpha

The general outline of the game is known but implementation of fthe desired featureset is incomplete and can shift heavily, causing breaking code, exploits, show stopping bugs and be generally and mostly stil unstable

 

Beta

All game features wanted for release are in place and working, focus is on bugfixing, polish, refuinement and balance

 

Release

The desired game features are done and in place, working well and working in a cohesive manner allowing a polished game and user experience.

 

 

I'd say that DU is currently somewhere between pre-Alpha and Alpha. I am guessing that what NQ is shooting for on release will really be beta at best.

 

NQ will play the "this is a MMO and as such, it it never feature complete" as tey get closer to "release" but that really is not a fair assesment as the definition is for the desired feature set at releases to be complete (during beta). NQ will push most outstanding promised features out to after release, hoping they wil have enough time and can build enough of a user base to get there.

 

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99.99% of DU players were never involved in a fight and will never be. A wipe wont bring any benefits to PvE-ers and PvP-ers.

A wipe is ok only but only if there are no Safe Zone beside Sanctuary and Alioth and Bubble become pvp zone like JC announced. You dont like it? Why the wipe? Get in game and play the game otherwise and create content. Whats now in DU is Social Life activities with 0.1% pvp.

There are tons of solutions for DU not to wipe and new player experience at release shouldnt be affected:

Lets say this solar system is called Legacy DU. All Dynamic Cores from this version created pre-release are tied to legacy ids. Legacy ID can leave Legacy System but this cores cant return to this system ever again. Each account can leave this system with 1 Legacy Core/ 30 days. Post Release Dynamic Cores can enter and leave Legacy System at their will. This is just a basic scenario that can bring benefits to both new and old players. This is just one...there are way more options via limitations you can put on old accounts if at release we all start on a new system.

DU at release should release with a new system where Legacy Ships/Cores cannot enter for 30-60-90-120-365 (whatever) days.

There are so many solutions for DU not to type and whats sad is that the Wipe hype threads and posts are coming ONLY from the people that want the game to die knowing that at release if most of the players are going from Hero to Zero will never return after they lost aprox 2 years from their life knowing it wont be any wipe.


Now stop whinning about wipes because even if we wipe 99.99% of players will never ever engage in pvp so whats the point? :)

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I believe that the wipe is hoped for because some players have the perception that there has been a great unpunished exploitation of exploits by some and that the general mismanagement of the game by NQ has led to a situation so chaotic and frustrating that they want a cancellation to start over.

Let's say I understand it but a wipe will not change anything: there will always be an exploit to exploit and NQ must change management to create order.

Maybe it will happen. If it were to, for me, despite being on hiatus and awaiting developments, it would certainly be a definitive game over.
I think for many.

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The main problem is not NQ. The main problem is the playerbase. If you change the way you look at this story, NQ helped every single one of us in a way or another to develop faster so we dont have to struggle days and nights in game:

We got bot prices
We got low bp prices

We got vr missions
We got...you name it...

What the playerbase did? Got so emotionally attached to pixels and assets, got involved in different Second Life activities and nothing about wars and pvp. What will change after wipe?

Organised Orgs and Alliances will have a bigger advantage because they will be forced to work in groups and they know how to work in groups. What the solo player will do? Nothing he is forced to stay on ALioth or find a way to join an Alliance if somebody will vouch for him because nowadays with alts you can be anyone you want :)

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1 hour ago, Leogradance said:

I believe that the wipe is hoped for because some players have the perception that there has been a great unpunished exploitation of exploits by some and that the general mismanagement of the game by NQ has led to a situation so chaotic and frustrating that they want a cancellation to start over.

Let's say I understand it but a wipe will not change anything: there will always be an exploit to exploit and NQ must change management to create order.

Maybe it will happen. If it were to, for me, despite being on hiatus and awaiting developments, it would certainly be a definitive game over.
I think for many.

 

The one thing I know since I got here is that A: NQ completely underestimates what people can do with the tools given, Or B: NQ intentionally leaves loopholes to exploit. I normally just call them exploits but its a combination of loopholes and exploits or exploiting loopholes. Don't act like it dosent exist or that people that player during alpha didnt learn how to exploit the game and its many loopholes when they wiped to start beta. 

 

Its not like people didnt exploit the loophole of the maneuvering tool normally or in VR to scan or move their ships to another tile and go right back into the mines.

 

Its not like people dont exploit the loophole of rez pads as teleporters since there is no death penalty of exp or -exp until you go positive exp again.

 

Its not like you couldnt exploit the loophole of mining, scanning tiles, moving a ship, and running missions all at the same time.

 

Its not like people dont exploit the loophole of scanning with nothing more than pushing a button to scan 27 tiles in 15 mins with 2 mins to spare if you know how to do it right to just find and crush mega nodes all day.

 

Its not like people didnt exploit the system and loot or destroy parts of districts.

 

Its not like people didnt buy up and exploit schematics when they first dropped

 

Its not like people didnt exploit the loophole of NQ fixing the market and holding it down so people with the most quanta couldnt scoop up tremendous amounts of ore for cheap.

 

Its not like people didnt exploit the loophole of scripting PvP bots to warp and scrape data as they flew and then have wolfpacks waiting on the other size armed with other PvP scrips or having extended radar beyond what oyu should have had.

 

Its not like people didnt exploit the loophole of using VR to physically teleport to a location.

 

Its not like people didnt exploit the loophole of stacking parts

 

Its not like people didnt exploit the loophole of logging out to instantly stop your ship in atmo or space to go from 30kmph to 0.

 

Its not like people didnt exploit the loophole of /fetch to teleport ships to wherever they needed.

 

I could keep going but you get my point.

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2 hours ago, Elitez said:

The main problem is not NQ. The main problem is the playerbase. If you change the way you look at this story, NQ helped every single one of us in a way or another to develop faster so we dont have to struggle days and nights in game:

We got bot prices
We got low bp prices

We got vr missions
We got...you name it...

What the playerbase did? Got so emotionally attached to pixels and assets, got involved in different Second Life activities and nothing about wars and pvp. What will change after wipe?

Organised Orgs and Alliances will have a bigger advantage because they will be forced to work in groups and they know how to work in groups. What the solo player will do? Nothing he is forced to stay on ALioth or find a way to join an Alliance if somebody will vouch for him because nowadays with alts you can be anyone you want :)

 

The problem is they took Landmark, MineCraft, Space Engineers, and promised Eve online.

 

The thing they misunderstood was their playerbase since many were Landmark Refugees, people who liked minecraft, and people who like space engineers. I feel bad for the PvP community in the sense that they killed off their own community because the building game side of things is much longer to progress to keep fighting than most people want to put into playing a game to do something fun.

 

The other thing they underestimated what people's drive to fight vs save up for the eventual space war that is supposed to happen at some point soon. Why throw billions away when you have to strategically blow it all when the war happens. So why fight until that happens. But more honestly why is there no basic laws or piracy in this game that comes with consiquences like -h or -exp?

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