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Full Wipe? or Why I would return to DU after Release


JayleBreak

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27 minutes ago, Creator said:

@Jeronimo convenient for you to pick one point in time and call that the definitive answer, when NQ has flip flopped dozens of times on not only wiping, but autominers, agg functionality, etc etc etc.... Did you ever think about the fact that there are such heated disputes between us on what NQ says is because their piss poor ability to be consistent in their message? 

If these guys were in charge of a FEMA disaster one half of us would believe everyone was dead, and the other half of us that everyone survived, cause they are wishy washy.

 

you really seam to be one of those guilt less exploits hunter, what do you have, that you want so frenetically not to loose, to be that against a wipe?

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1 minute ago, Jeronimo said:

 

you really seam to be one of those guilt less exploits hunter, what do you have, that you want so frenetically not to loose, to be that against a wipe?


Did you hit yourself in the face too hard with a 2x4 or are you just making baseless accusations? exactly...
Try debating the topic instead of making character attacks on people.

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8 hours ago, Leniver said:

We don't want a wipe.

Currently early game is completely broken, the only think keeping us in the game is because we have already some asset and ore.

 

I think everyone should get to experience DU from the ground up again to see how bad things really are. Alphas/betas have wipes when mechanics change so drastically that you cant make the same potential of qunata, ore, buildings, or ships in that same timeframe. Its far away from where beta started and now it needs to be wiped to rebalance the game. It wouldnt hurt if they also developed a game instead of a job.

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4 minutes ago, Warlander said:

 

I think everyone should get to experience DU from the ground up again to see how bad things really are. Alphas/betas have wipes when mechanics change so drastically that you cant make the same potential of qunata, ore, buildings, or ships in that same timeframe. Its far away from where beta started and now it needs to be wiped to rebalance the game. It wouldnt hurt if they also developed a game instead of a job.


I second this idea 100%, even if it is going to be the death of the game, not wiping also death of the game.

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37 minutes ago, Creator said:


I second this idea 100%, even if it is going to be the death of the game, not wiping also death of the game.

They could wipe PTU for next test. Propablly it is for NPE, so all testers could have a taste of it.

 

Then creating a real well planned survey about all features of DU including post-wipe player experience and NPE.

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16 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

I guess this is NQ's problem really.  Do they make the game for the people who have stayed and kept paying subs or do they risk alienating those people (by deleting all their progress and erasing the history/shared story they created) to try and recover the ones who haven't played for a long time?

You get to keep your talent points and blueprints(non-magic). Wealth is wiped. You still have "advantage".

 

It doesn't matter what currently "paying" players think about it. They can't make the game sustainable anyway. Their task is to QA-test the game while it's in development so NQ doesn't need to hire QA. As a bonus they pay sub.

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9 minutes ago, XKentX said:

Their task is to QA-test the game while it's in development so NQ doesn't need to hire QA. As a bonus they pay sub.


Whole f'ing industry anymore to pay to be a games QA department.

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1 hour ago, XKentX said:

You get to keep your talent points and blueprints(non-magic). Wealth is wiped. You still have "advantage".

 

It doesn't matter what currently "paying" players think about it. They can't make the game sustainable anyway. Their task is to QA-test the game while it's in development so NQ doesn't need to hire QA. As a bonus they pay sub.

Of course it matters!  Those people are the ones who *like playing the game* enough to pay for it.  Whereas the people who are not playing are the people who *stopped playing the game because there was something they didn't like about it*.

People act like a wipe will suddenly attract a whole new set of players from nowhere but I don't see it myself.  I think a 'launch' will attract about the same number of people wipe or not because they'll be attracted by advertising campaigns, placement in a launcher like steam or whatever rather than some specific detail about how the game started.  I also think a wiped game is less likely to retain a lot of those people as there won't be structure to help them, cool things for them to see, etc.. 

But if you do wipe a significant number of existing players will probably think "Been there, done that, don't really want to start a new playthrough, I'll go play another game".   Some of those players would be the ones who would otherwise provide advice, structure, goals etc for the newer players.  It's true that they might be replaced by older players who quit rejoining for a second try.  All I'm saying is that if it were me I'd prefer to launch with the support of the people who stuck with it rather than the support of people who already quit once because they didn't like the game.  It's still the same game after all ...

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6 hours ago, Jeronimo said:

 

oh yes we want a wipe

yes the early game is more than broken now, not only the early game, will need some enormous rebalancing

 

if we all start again from scratch, industries will be extremely slow to develop, long space distance exploration for finding better than T2 ores will be a very hard task since we wont have territory scanners (needing T1/T2 and T3 ores) to check which tile on Alioth have Malachite therefore to be able to make space fuel, unless you want spend hundreds of hours of your time mining 20L skittles on the surface to fuel up a space speeder

 

but too many players have gotten effortlessly insanely rich using the game exploits (free schematics worth millions after patch, VR missions allowing players to make more than hundreds millions quantas per mission, duplication glithes etc...), and it is those players now are playing with broken economy mechanics, because they are the only ones now well equipped for feeding the markets, where solo players and smaller orgs pay the highest cost, where rich will keep on pressuring to get richer and richer, and new players and poorest will never be able to get out of it and surely give up on the game

If we all start from scratch, a few organised large groups will pool their efforts and be back up and running in a small number of weeks (perhaps by no-lifeing skittle collection until their eyes bleed and pooling the results!).  They will then get the jump on everyone else with scanning, asteroids, PvP capability, etc and will completely own the economy.

Everyone else will be complaining about how unfair it is, accusing them of using some nameless exploit or other and asking for another (at least partial) wipe to put it right again.

 

Convince me I'm wrong ...

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36 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

If we all start from scratch, a few organised large groups will pool their efforts and be back up and running in a small number of weeks (perhaps by no-lifeing skittle collection until their eyes bleed and pooling the results!).  They will then get the jump on everyone else with scanning, asteroids, PvP capability, etc and will completely own the economy.

Everyone else will be complaining about how unfair it is, accusing them of using some nameless exploit or other and asking for another (at least partial) wipe to put it right again.

 

Convince me I'm wrong ...

 

Don't really have to , dedicated group will always gain advantage. The real question is if everyone else feels they are shut out from most of the game. Unlike the real world where they have to plod along regardless of the centralization of wealth/power, in a game they just quit paying. A few active groups won't keep the lights on and then everyone loses out.

 

In total fairness to NQ, this was always going to be a problem even if DU had managed to become popular. There is no content for anyone outside those large groups, no game loops for small players to enjoy. No NPC's to go hunt, market participation is now heavily gated behind a giant pay wall of schematics, territory ownership to creating a mining business is now heavily gated to who gets the most scans the fastest.

 

The problem was always going to be there. The problem is all these changes by NQ only make the disparity and power gaps worse. 

 

Plus don't discount how many of those 'large' groups would just outright quit if they lost all their easy mode assets from earlier in beta.

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19 hours ago, Underhook said:

1)  As far as I am aware you can only sue for your loss.  You would have to prove that you have lost money.

2)  Any reasonable court would conclude that you played the game during your time of subscription so you got what you paid for.

How familiar are you with EU consumer laws and regulations?

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1 hour ago, Zeddrick said:

If we all start from scratch, a few organised large groups will pool their efforts and be back up and running in a small number of weeks (perhaps by no-lifeing skittle collection until their eyes bleed and pooling the results!).  They will then get the jump on everyone else with scanning, asteroids, PvP capability, etc and will completely own the economy.

Everyone else will be complaining about how unfair it is, accusing them of using some nameless exploit or other and asking for another (at least partial) wipe to put it right again.

 

Convince me I'm wrong ...

 

Its not about keeping the balance up forever.
Of course there will be huge groups dominating DU in a way.

But right now like everyone is dominating who started before the demeter Update, and aspecially before the industry change.

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4 minutes ago, Scavenger said:

 

Its not about keeping the balance up forever.
Of course there will be huge groups dominating DU in a way.

But right now like everyone is dominating who started before the demeter Update, and aspecially before the industry change.

I disagree.  I think the people who did missions made so much money that they're way richer than everyone else *including* the people who exploited early on.  I remember, for example, a lot of fuss about T5 mining-to-bots very early on in beta.  NQ said that nobody made 1 billion h out of it.  Some mission runners made a billion *every day*, which dwarfs that.

Even schematics, a billion a day lets you set up a warp beacon pipeline *every 2 days* complete with enough material to start one building.  So even the cheap schematic issue doesn't matter any more because running missions gave other people the same thing.

 

And it looks like the mission runners had so much cash they were buying stockpiles of ore, causing inflation and spreading out that cash to everyone else in the game.  So anyone who sold ore has benefited from it too.

 

I'm pretty sure that a lot of the people who want a wipe want it because they were the rich ones before mission running became a thing and they think they'll be the rich ones again after a wipe.....

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41 minutes ago, Xennial said:

 

Don't really have to , dedicated group will always gain advantage. The real question is if everyone else feels they are shut out from most of the game. Unlike the real world where they have to plod along regardless of the centralization of wealth/power, in a game they just quit paying. A few active groups won't keep the lights on and then everyone loses out.

 

In total fairness to NQ, this was always going to be a problem even if DU had managed to become popular. There is no content for anyone outside those large groups, no game loops for small players to enjoy. No NPC's to go hunt, market participation is now heavily gated behind a giant pay wall of schematics, territory ownership to creating a mining business is now heavily gated to who gets the most scans the fastest.

 

The problem was always going to be there. The problem is all these changes by NQ only make the disparity and power gaps worse. 

 

Plus don't discount how many of those 'large' groups would just outright quit if they lost all their easy mode assets from earlier in beta.

I think it's a bit of a myth that the richest people in the game are only rich because of low effort exploits.  All the rich people I've met are rich because they put in more effort than everybody else.  And guess what, after a wipe they will do the same thing again and be rich again.

 

I do agree that unfairness is always going to be a problem in the game.  I just disagree that a wipe will fix it.  It might hide it for 3-6 months but eventually things will go back to the way they are now because that's how the game is set up.

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4 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

I'm pretty sure that a lot of the people who want a wipe want it because they were the rich ones before mission running became a thing and they think they'll be the rich ones again after a wipe.....


Its not a fight about getting on top or something.
Its about having a balance back again so even as small trader economy is fun.
But if missions caused such a inflation as well its even more worth it to wipe it all.

Eventually it would be good to wait with a wipe tho since there could appear some more economy braking bugs as they are changing the game.

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1 minute ago, Scavenger said:


Its not a fight about getting on top or something.
Its about having a balance back again so even as small trader economy is fun.
But if missions caused such a inflation as well its even more worth it to wipe it all.

No, *because missions will cause inflation again*.  The small trader economy is never going to work until the game gets a lot bigger.  With a low player base, infinite production and high upfront costs to industry (schematic buying) the economy will inevitably end up with a single trade hub dominated by a small number of very rich people.  And a wipe won't fix that.  A wipe with skill wipe will hide it for a while, a wipe without skill wipe probably won't even do that very much because the previously-wealthy will have all the skills and can sell at a price where most people are already making a loss.

 

There is no way to balance this without massively limiting the ability of the large players to produce or adding a huge number of new players (a 5 digit number) to the game to balance them out with massive consumption.  And without balancing it a wipe will just temporarily fix things.

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11 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

No, *because missions will cause inflation again*.  The small trader economy is never going to work until the game gets a lot bigger.  With a low player base, infinite production and high upfront costs to industry (schematic buying) the economy will inevitably end up with a single trade hub dominated by a small number of very rich people.  And a wipe won't fix that.  A wipe with skill wipe will hide it for a while, a wipe without skill wipe probably won't even do that very much because the previously-wealthy will have all the skills and can sell at a price where most people are already making a loss.

 

There is no way to balance this without massively limiting the ability of the large players to produce or adding a huge number of new players (a 5 digit number) to the game to balance them out with massive consumption.  And without balancing it a wipe will just temporarily fix things.


Well, Thats true.
With a small player base the system will never really turn out in the long term as the possibility to create elements in the current rate will not fit with the demand of a small player base.
To counter that it could get alot slower or expensive to craft elements, to fit a small playerbase, which is not a good choice either.

So if the solution is to have more player it will need some more AAA features like NPCs and such which is not easy to design and create in a small studio like NQ.
I do think DU can really only be developed towards players who really enjoy to create, which are probably not enough to keep DU financial stable over a long period of time.
So even more resources have to be cut like with the dementer update and its server costs reduction, which potencially pushes even more AAA-Players away.

I am pretty sure if NQ reads this conservation they be like "Go tell me something new, we are thinking every day every night for a solution"

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I think you failed to address every major issue. 

 

1 sustainable economy

 

2 sustainable joy for everyone, not just the top dog. 

 

3 Sustainable combat, where a noob can enjoy (npcs required) 

 

4 Stuff to explore. 

 

5 Massive reduction on bureaucratic stuff that add 99% paint and 1% value: 

 

- High taxes, charges (regulate mining elsewhere, like lowering the global quantity of ore a miner can extract) 

 

- Crafting times should never, ever be above 30m..... FFS NQ.. What is the benefit on waiting 2 weeks for a element? Dont you get the obvious about user experience?

 

- schematics need to be optional, for all parts/ elements. 

If someone wants to craft a premium engine, with 10% boost, they need a schenatic. But everyone else should be able to craft the basic engine... 

 

-Remove the 100 variations of the same voxel, element, part variations are properties of the same element. 

Voxels have color and texture that should be chosen on deploy. 

Elements like engines should have several "efficiency", resulting on the talents of who crafts and the quality of the parts used and the schematic. 

If you wander how the market would work with so many variations, check out diablo 3 auction house. 

Every weapon has an unique combination of attributes. 

How would a blueprint work? 2 windows with drag and drop where the player would chose the elements to deploy the blue print. 

 

6 Avatar fast travel needs to be a thing. A new player joining the game or a dead player that respawn on Alioth needs to have a way to join their friends that does not take 3 hours. 

 

7 Stop making the game worse. 

 

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32 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

I think you failed to address every major issue. 

 

1 sustainable economy

 

2 sustainable joy for everyone, not just the top dog. 

 

3 Sustainable combat, where a noob can enjoy (npcs required) 

 

4 Stuff to explore. 

 

5 Massive reduction on bureaucratic stuff that add 99% paint and 1% value: 

 

- High taxes, charges (regulate mining elsewhere, like lowering the global quantity of ore a miner can extract) 

 

- Crafting times should never, ever be above 30m..... FFS NQ.. What is the benefit on waiting 2 weeks for a element? Dont you get the obvious about user experience?

 

- schematics need to be optional, for all parts/ elements. 

If someone wants to craft a premium engine, with 10% boost, they need a schenatic. But everyone else should be able to craft the basic engine... 

 

-Remove the 100 variations of the same voxel, element, part variations are properties of the same element. 

Voxels have color and texture that should be chosen on deploy. 

Elements like engines should have several "efficiency", resulting on the talents of who crafts and the quality of the parts used and the schematic. 

If you wander how the market would work with so many variations, check out diablo 3 auction house. 

Every weapon has an unique combination of attributes. 

How would a blueprint work? 2 windows with drag and drop where the player would chose the elements to deploy the blue print. 

 

6 Avatar fast travel needs to be a thing. A new player joining the game or a dead player that respawn on Alioth needs to have a way to join their friends that does not take 3 hours. 

 

7 Stop making the game worse. 

 


I would also like to have so many things.
- UberTextures
- Custom designed planets
- Power systems for ships
etc.

But its not that easy in a small budget studio. I am sure they have discussed about NPCs and i am sure they have a reason why they dont work on it right now.
So the question is what can be changed to the good with the lowest amount of afford.

The alternative would be to shut down DU, which nobody wants.

PS: "-Remove the 100 variations of the same voxe"
Here i truely agree. Would be great to simply swap voxel colors of the same material around without having all the variations laying around somewhere. :D

But even that costs time to develop and i think there are other prioritys

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21 minutes ago, Scavenger said:

The alternative would be to shut down DU, which nobody wants.

I invested 120€ on the game. I still engage in this forum. I still help new players when im in game. 

But im quite sure this game is doomed... 

 

The reason is simple, the changes I pointed and some more that i have not, are essential for the game to be viable with a paying subscription model. 

 

No one will pay a subscription to suffer. And thats a huge part of what we do currently. 

It takes me less time and efforth to buy a water bottle in real life than the correct aluminum voxel needed for my blueprint. A game is not supposed to be more painfull than RL....... 

 

Because i dont belive NQ has the resources to make the game sustainable, i think its already doomed. 

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Just now, Scavenger said:

You might want to stop waste your time in this Forum if you truely believe DU is doomed.

 

Many ppl (and probably some NQs) wish that. 

But i will keep offering my advice until the end. 

 

And you will keep gaining from my advice without knowing. 

Do you like the asteroid spawning system? I sugested that way after i considured the game doomed. 

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1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:

 

Many ppl (and probably some NQs) wish that. 

But i will keep offering my advice until the end. 

 

And you will keep gaining from my advice without knowing. 

Do you like the asteroid spawning system? I sugested that way after i considured the game doomed. 


That is very honorable of you.
You might want to write a application to NQ.

(And now i leave that consveration otherwise i will spam/troll too much :D )

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