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Two Strong & Urgent Requests for Dementor Changes


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1. Please make HQ tiles 7 vs. 5 so that way if we need to take a break we can maintain a bonus constellation of hexes if we can't be online to mine it for extended period of time. 5 seems like an arbitrary number out of kneejerk response to appease all the players with torches and pitchforks. 7 on the other hand creates a function & aesthetic number of tiles that feels complete, and allows players to take breaks in case you know their parents has cancer, or they lose their job, or both of these things at the same time.... kind of stuff in life.

2. Make recalibration & drop off after 7 days not 2... (keep the current recharge rates/cap etc.) If I have to login every day to spend my charges, I don't want to do it to nanny the same mining unit I just nannied 48 hours ago, to simply maintain efficiency rates. Some of us can only play on weekends, and work several jobs, so it feels like a punishment for being responsible in real life.

 @NQ-Pann @NQ-Deckard @NQ-Sesch

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  • Creator changed the title to Two Strong & Urgent Requests for Dementor Changes

7 HQ tiles instead of 5 would be nice, but certainly not neccessary, you can easliy make a five tile HQ patch. Honestly doesn't matter to me, I'm good either way.

 

Drop off after 7 days instead of 2. Absolutely NOT! NQ please don't bend to the whiners (again)! This seemingly minor change would have massive impact on the amount of ore people can automine and how many tiles people would optimally need. Over twice as much ore and 25% more tiles needed. Would lead to 25% more quanta sink/sunk. Bad, bad idea!

 

What I do request of NQ is that they implement a basic math tutorial in DU, because way to many people don't have even basic math skills and still complain that the game is broken because they can't do some basic math! That also means you @Creator!

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1 hour ago, Cergorach said:

7 HQ tiles instead of 5 would be nice, but certainly not neccessary, you can easliy make a five tile HQ patch. Honestly doesn't matter to me, I'm good either way.

 

Drop off after 7 days instead of 2. Absolutely NOT! NQ please don't bend to the whiners (again)! This seemingly minor change would have massive impact on the amount of ore people can automine and how many tiles people would optimally need. Over twice as much ore and 25% more tiles needed. Would lead to 25% more quanta sink/sunk. Bad, bad idea!

 

What I do request of NQ is that they implement a basic math tutorial in DU, because way to many people don't have even basic math skills and still complain that the game is broken because they can't do some basic math! That also means you @Creator!


1. Those that don't agree with you aren't automatically whiners.
2. Respectfully, go fuck yourself. I graduated with a 3.8 GPA in college and that included Trig, Calc, Linear Algrebra, Geometry etc. all in an advanced and accelerated 4 week course for all topics just listed. Far beyond "basic" math. Not everyone that disagrees with you is stupid either.
 

If you can't support your points without disrespecting/insulting myself and the general community, then your arguments are weak.

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1 hour ago, Cergorach said:

What I do request of NQ is that they implement a basic math tutorial in DU, because way to many people don't have even basic math skills and still complain that the game is broken because they can't do some basic math! That also means you @Creator!

Problem with your math is that it only works if you set your clock by the game, join regularly and behave like a good little citizen doing all the chores no questions asked.

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4 hours ago, Cergorach said:

7 HQ tiles instead of 5 would be nice, but certainly not neccessary, you can easliy make a five tile HQ patch. Honestly doesn't matter to me, I'm good either way.

 

Drop off after 7 days instead of 2. Absolutely NOT! NQ please don't bend to the whiners (again)! This seemingly minor change would have massive impact on the amount of ore people can automine and how many tiles people would optimally need. Over twice as much ore and 25% more tiles needed. Would lead to 25% more quanta sink/sunk. Bad, bad idea!

 

What I do request of NQ is that they implement a basic math tutorial in DU, because way to many people don't have even basic math skills and still complain that the game is broken because they can't do some basic math! That also means you @Creator!

Awesome community we have here

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Somehow the DU forum is pretty good at derailing every topic.

So I will just post my opinion about the "derailed" part which barely touches the original post. I am sorry.

 

Some people are very involved in the game. They are like

"Just login every day and everything is fine. And then you just do some missions which take roughly 4 hours AFKing and you are totally wealthy".

Problem is: Not everyone is playing games this way. Some people like to play a bit when they want to.

 

And about the "maths" part in this topic:
I probably "could" do the maths. But I just want to play this game for fun. If I am required to do maths about my possible income and wether or not I am able to pay my tile is a pretty bad game design idea. Because not everyone wants to min/max a game.

Some people just want to have fun and relax a bit.

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7 hours ago, Cergorach said:

Drop off after 7 days instead of 2. Absolutely NOT! NQ please don't bend to the whiners (again)!

 

I'd say making a realtively minor change, with really not as much of an impact as you seem to want to imply, which may well retain paying customers.. Seems like a good idea to consider.

 

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1 hour ago, Jake Arver said:

 

I'd say making a realtively minor change, with really not as much of an impact as you seem to want to imply, which may well retain paying customers.. Seems like a good idea to consider.

 

The limiting factor on the number of MUs you can productively have at any given time is the recharge time. The drop off time can be extended to 7 days, but then the time to recover the calibration charge has to be increased correspondingly to keep production levels constant. More active players who want to switch between ores that are being mined every other day (for example) might not like that.
 

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I'd like a higher number of charges you can store, just so you could not play for more than a day and a half and not waste charges. At least pumping it a little, so it takes 48 hours to fill up, would be a big improvement. you 'technically' have 35 hours before they fill up at max skills, but it really feels like 24 hours, because most people would be playing at around the same time on any given day, and wouldn't be able to stagger their play sessions for 35 hours like that.

 

just keep the charge recharging rate the same, and this shouldn't really have an effect on the amount of ore entering the economy.

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14 hours ago, TonyTones said:

Awesome community we have here

When you decent into the toxic hellpitt to confront the screaming vocal minority that there are other opinions then their own, you can expect to be a little corrupted as well. Be warned! ?

 

18 hours ago, Creator said:

I graduated with a 3.8 GPA in college

We all know college is p2w! ?

 

 

17 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

Problem with...

Boored! ?

 

But seriously, the problem here is that instead of stating problem X and discussing how to solve that problem. It's stated that I want Y, because I have problem X. The problem is literally that people don't do the math, if they did, they would know that the 'solution' they want doesn't actually solve their problem, the opposite happens as it worsens the situation. @Vonboy Has the actual solution to the problem.

 

The problem is that you don't want to a daily grind. You already don't have to. There are two types of skills. #1 increase how quickly mining charges regenerate, #2 increase the amount of mining charges you can hold. #2 increases the amount to max 10 charges. Without training the #1 skills, you get a new charge every 6 hours, you can store 10, thus 60 hours, that is every 2.5 days you have to logon. Even with max #1 skills, charge recharge goes down to every 3.5 hours one charge, thus 35 hours to get all 10, that is every 1.5 days. If you want to change that system, you do not increase how long a single mining charge will allow a MU to run, that just means that people doing their daily grind get an even bigger advantage (over twice the ore at less then an 25% increase in costs). What you need to change is to be able to store more mining charges.

 

That can be done a couple of ways:

1.) Double the basic 5 to 10 charges stored and let every skill increase add 2, for a maximum of 20 charges stored. With no #1 skills trained that would mean 120 hours of mining charge regeneration or 5 days. So you could do the last mining charge Sunday evening (8 charges regenerate over the weekend) and on Friday evening you'll have 20 charges ready again.

2.) Add another skill that adds another 5 storage capacity to the charges.

3.) Combination of the above.

 

I am totally FOR more storage of mining charges, as that doesn't force the 1.5 day grind. What I'm not for is being able to do the same daily grind and automining 2 million liters of ore per week, instead of just one million for just a 20-25% increase in costs (taxes/mining facilities).

 

The issue still is, that IF you want to do it optimally you want that 3.5 hour recharge rate (for 48 charges per week), I don't see 35-50 mining charge storage capacity happening. The question is also: do you want to do the mining mini game 48 times a weekend?

 

13 hours ago, PleiJades said:

And about the "maths" part in this topic:

I probably "could" do the maths. But I just want to play this game for fun. If I am required to do maths about my possible income and wether or not I am able to pay my tile is a pretty bad game design idea. Because not everyone wants to min/max a game.

Some people just want to have fun and relax a bit.

Please keep in mind that different people find different things fun, relaxing, enjoyable, or satisfactory... ?

 

When people refuse to do the math or just can't seem to do it well (or frankly, at all). They make assumptions that are not based in reality. Then they make proposals that just don't make sense, and worsen the problem they have with DU. If that happens once, sure, I can be a nice guy, I can patiently explain. It can happen twice, trice, but this has happened way, way more then that. Just look up posts by Warlander, Creator, CptLoRes, etc. At a certain point, being a nice guy just doesn't work.

 

NQ has shown that if a small vocal minority is loud enough, they'll bend like a reed in the wind. Scan results deletion is an example, but certainly not the only one. So if that vocal minority is allowed to scream without any opposition, that might just happen again. You're not seeing much opposition in this toxic hellhole of a forum, because it's a toxic hellhole of a forum. How many people do you think looked over the edge and went "Oh hell! I'm not going in there!"? A LOT!

 

Not everyone wants to min/max the game, but be assured that there are quite a few who do. And if you don't keep that extreme in mind when proposing willie-nillie changes, the problems you have with DU will only get worse. The proposed changes from the OP would have resulted in an even more massive influx of Ore on the markets (by those same min/maxers). What happens when you increase supply drastically? Prices go down. How exactly did you want to pay for those tiles again?

 

I dislike most of the changes that have been made in Demeter. Let me be clear on that. I liked to mine in the planet on occasion, it was very ZEN! But there are people that absolutely hated the mining mechanic and love the automining. That same vocal minority that wanted all the current rich/inactive tile holders gone, are the same vocal minority that complains about the tax system that is getting rid of the rich/inactive tile holders. They keep spouting inaccurate information, they keep proposing insane changes they don't understand the consequences of. But when someone calls them on their BS in the same condescending tone they are using, they get huffy about it. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

 

The issue most people seem to have is that they can't continue to play as they previously had. They can't. It's that simple. The underlying problem isn't that things change, but if enough things change at the same time, not many people can adapt. And that's what we're seeing in DU, too many changes at the same time. And instead of forcing NQ to change it again in a plethora of nonsensical ways, we need to adapt to the new situation and realizing that the old way of playing is gone. Just as with 0.23. And there are ways to adapt, just many are to stuborn to change (whiny voice: I want it MY way!).

 

You want to mine old skool? At one of the player 'markets' there is a public asteroid scanner you can use and find one of those asteroids (Shamsie mentioned it yesterday on his stream). Don't have a capable space ship? Ask some other players nicely if you can join them on an expedition, they might say yes. There are a ton of very helpful people in DU, many would even go out of their way to help you along. But I personally draw the line at loud arseholes, I'm not sharing the secrets of getting space rich with them, I leave that for the nice people... ?

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3 hours ago, Cergorach said:

But seriously, the problem here is that instead of stating problem X and discussing how to solve that problem. It's stated that I want Y, because I have problem X.

 

I'd disagree, as you seem to generally not have the ability to understand that your POV may not be the only one around and so you judge others purely on how you would reason something.

 

OP actually has a valid argument to make which, in part due to an accumulated frustration with the half-baked way NQ is delivering updates while ignoring most of the valid comments and arguments made when they ask for feedback.

 

Now, that NQ pretends to include the community to then ignore most of what comes out of that is not new to anyone who has been around for the past 4_ years, it is pretty much their MO and it was called out to go down that way at the first sign of them asking for questions/feedback on their plans for Demeter. We all really know that this patch was already way past major changes and NQ would push it out mostly as-is anyway. which is pretty much what happened, exploits and all.

 

 

I get your point even when I believe your way of arguing math here is both misplaced and missing the point. I also think that while it might have been worded different, OP also makes valid points. How about you try and not just stomp on someone in a rather demeaning way and just argue your point. Who knows, if you do not set yourself up as an aggressor in this matter, something mutual agreeable might come out of it.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jake Arver said:

I'd disagree, as you seem to generally not have the ability to understand that your POV may not be the only one around and so you judge others purely on how you would reason something.

People have of course different points of view, just as I have. But reasoning isn't a POV, unless you want to argue philosophy. If someone is drowning and wants more water because (s)he's drowning, how do you want to explain that reasoning as a 'different' POV? You don't like change X/Y/Z, because a/b/c, that's a POV.

 

As for frustration, I certainly have some regarding NQ. But way more due to certain posters in here, you included that are shouting the hardest as if your POV is the only one. I'm just trying to level the playing field by playing the same game.

 

As for stomping on people, when the OP starts threads with opening statements like:

Don't expect people that use alts to be friendly to you, if you talked about them like that. Being accused of exploiting (aka. cheating) in the game does not make you friends, it makes you enemies. We checked with NQ before using multiple accounts, it was fine as long as not used in pvp. And again, if this was the only instance where (s)he is insinuating that people are exploiting the game using mechanics NQ approves of, but Creator doesn't agree with... Hint: It isn't the first time.

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16 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

People have of course different points of view, just as I have. But reasoning isn't a POV, unless you want to argue philosophy. If someone is drowning and wants more water because (s)he's drowning, how do you want to explain that reasoning as a 'different' POV? You don't like change X/Y/Z, because a/b/c, that's a POV.

 

As for frustration, I certainly have some regarding NQ. But way more due to certain posters in here, you included that are shouting the hardest as if your POV is the only one. I'm just trying to level the playing field by playing the same game.

 

As for stomping on people, when the OP starts threads with opening statements like:

Don't expect people that use alts to be friendly to you... it makes you enemies...

 

 

Thanks for validating publicly that you were looking for a fight and making intentional personal attacks, because you don't have tolerance for other view points.

 

To claim that alts provide no imbalancing advantage is purely misguided belief.

 

It is known as a force multiplier.

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4 hours ago, Cergorach said:

As for stomping on people, when the OP starts threads with opening statements like:

 

Again, your POV, and it feels to me you are trying to spin the discussion away from your actions (directed at specific people) and generalize them. I have many alts and his comment, while I understand where it comes from, does not bother me at all since it does not apply to me as stated. Also unlike you (when you make a comment and add "and that includes you [insert name]") , he is not addressing anyone in particular with such comments so your argument here really falls flat. 

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14 hours ago, Cergorach said:

The problem is that you don't want to a daily grind. You already don't have to. There are two types of skills. #1 increase how quickly mining charges regenerate, #2 increase the amount of mining charges you can hold. #2 increases the amount to max 10 charges. Without training the #1 skills, you get a new charge every 6 hours, you can store 10, thus 60 hours, that is every 2.5 days you have to logon. Even with max #1 skills, charge recharge goes down to every 3.5 hours one charge, thus 35 hours to get all 10, that is every 1.5 days. If you want to change that system, you do not increase how long a single mining charge will allow a MU to run, that just means that people doing their daily grind get an even bigger advantage (over twice the ore at less then an 25% increase in costs). What you need to change is to be able to store more mining charges.

 

That can be done a couple of ways:

1.) Double the basic 5 to 10 charges stored and let every skill increase add 2, for a maximum of 20 charges stored. With no #1 skills trained that would mean 120 hours of mining charge regeneration or 5 days. So you could do the last mining charge Sunday evening (8 charges regenerate over the weekend) and on Friday evening you'll have 20 charges ready again.

2.) Add another skill that adds another 5 storage capacity to the charges.

3.) Combination of the above.

Could someone please react to this?

You are all starting to take this personally which is really strange...

I am only a casual player, who is not too deep into the game mechanics. But if you start to talk about game mechanics please follow up on suggestions/criticism/etc. 

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@PleiJades

There's something to be said for both opinions really. The problew here is that NQ, in their drive to reduce cost and rush in "features" is entirely overlooking the most important factor in a game, i has to be fun.

 

As it is, DU is exceeding the need for "work" over "play" and is in many places so over engineered that there is no room for.. fun.

 

NQ is still mainly focussed on finding funding I am sure, to aquire that they wil need to show they have a viable and sustainable game. Designing systems to pretty much require daily login and spending a good bit of time in game drives statistics which may allow them to do that.

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1 minute ago, Jake Arver said:

@PleiJades

There's something to be said for both opinions really. The problme here is that NQ, in their drive to reduce cost and rush in "features" is entirely overlooking the most important factor in a game, i has to be fun.

 

As it is, DU is exceeding the need for "work" over "play" and is in many places so over engineered that there is no room for.. fun.

 

NQ is still mainly focussed on finding funding I am sure, to aquire that they wil need to show they have a viable and sustainable game. Designing systems to pretty much require daily login and spending a good bit of time in game drives statistics which may allow them to do that.

DualUniverse is currently a kind of limited sandbox for players who like something like Minecraft or Lego.

The PvP itself is currently absurd, unbalanced and too expensive to really "have fun" there.

In the end, all that's left is to "build something". 

There is only variety if you want to fly a mission. (cost-benefit risk)
Some people also think Lua is great - but do they really need DualUniverse?

There is no standard content here such as raids, arenas, battlegrounds, castle wars, dungeons, quests, monsters, world bosses, mounts-pets to collect or food-drink-buff-food mechanics in general, etc.

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1: NQ needs to make part lines similar to ship progression that has more to mining units other than plug a box in and burn a charge for a mini-game. There needs to be drill bits, augers, rock crushers, power generation, AI units, etc to make better use of tile mining that has millions to hundreds of millions in building a mining rig like you do a ship that has military, freight, maneuvering tags, basic-rare, and XS-XLE designations that can be used on any ore to improve yield, lower the time, create a RNG range for yield per hour, and make it so that every time you play the mini-game you can keep increasing bonuses. With ships you have base stats, putdowns, and talents to tripple down on power, speed, or efficiency with fuels or power sources and mining units should be essientially the same as ships or industry.

 

2: Taxes need to be changed to how big the opperation is vs how many tiles you can gobble up since this system is designed to give more than you spend and there is no upward end to how much you can grab. It needs to be changed to whats in the tile and how much you can pull out of the ground in l/h in terms of 100L and by tier available. It should be more about improving a tile and doing it there rather than needing 176 tiles to produce 10 L containers worth of ore per day and banking. Those getting the most out of a tile should pay the most. Those draining the most performance from the server should pay the most. Its that simple.

 

3: VR needs to become a teleport and either remove it from the game or embrace teleporting since the star gates essentially were the same sort of concept as VR with movingmaterials and ships so whats the harm? Just charge warp cells by distance, Tax calculated by distance, add a multiplier by how much weight you carry to warp cells and the disance tax, and force a player to use a calibration charge and call it one. Either they make VR a teleport with multiple costs and burn a charge or they just remove the whole system since it is useless now.

 

4: The mini game rocks need to be added to the RNG spawns of surface rocks to make mining a little more random. NQ should think of anything you have on the surface should be harvestable. Trees? You can make coal or wood voxels perhaps? Every stone you see? Harvestable. Any prop on the landscape should be able to make something since the world itself in this type of game should be a resource.

 

5: Add a sink to take out this huge influx of ore constantly into the system now with destructible elements or wear and tear to keep the ore market and parts market moving so that we can "make more ore than we pay in taxes". Eventually we will get less and less for the ore, not be able to sell anything except for random projects people are doing, and "earn less then we generate to cover taxes".

 

6: Make fully automated super freighters that have automated scripts to fly circuits non stop that launch from arcs anyone can jump on and do missions like a bus on a timed schedule. Do the same with asteroid mining ships so new players have another option to make money or whoever to do content until they can spend the 100s of millions on a ship to do the same thing.

 

 

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On 11/27/2021 at 6:09 AM, Cergorach said:

That can be done a couple of ways:

1.) Double the basic 5 to 10 charges stored and let every skill increase add 2, for a maximum of 20 charges stored. With no #1 skills trained that would mean 120 hours of mining charge regeneration or 5 days. So you could do the last mining charge Sunday evening (8 charges regenerate over the weekend) and on Friday evening you'll have 20 charges ready again.

2.) Add another skill that adds another 5 storage capacity to the charges.

3.) Combination of the above.

 

Childishly smug condescension aside, I agree with Cergorach's suggestions here. I'm already extremely sick of feeling like I need to log in every night to play a boring calibration mini game just to keep my head above water with the new tax system.. Please NQ, cut us players who don't want to or can't play every single night some slack, and let us save up some more charges.. I'd love it if the calibration didn't start decreasing until something like 7 days instead of 2, but I'll admit, I haven't done the math, and frankly don't care to.

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On 11/27/2021 at 12:22 PM, Creator said:

@NQ-Nyzaltar Thank you for enforcing  community standards. I appreciate it, with all sincerity.

 

Did Cergorach, Also recieve a warning or is the moderation here unilateral for correcting someone forcefully for instigating/insulting? If not shouldn't purposeful baiting and insulting be a violation or is word choice the bigger issue vs. Instigating toxicity?

 

As the rules state excessive profanity which is not defined in clear terms for the games code of conduct. Also the game and forum rules are not uniform/consistent which I was not aware of.

 

I have brought this up a couple of times as I feel community rules for moderation should consider the context and if the warned party was instigated by another.

 

It has been common pattern in general, forum and discord that, people instigate then report as a way to weaponize moderators against those they are instigating.

 

Thank you, hope you had a good holiday yesterday if you participated.

 

- Cody

 

Ps. Not trying to challenge, just trying to clarify to avoid future moderation against me.

Yes, I think personal insults of any sort have no place.  The go F yourself is no worse than the Whiners comment, jus that one contains a swear word.  That said moderating a forum is hard.

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6 hours ago, Underhook said:

Yes, I think personal insults of any sort have no place.  The go F yourself is no worse than the Whiners comment, jus that one contains a swear word.  That said moderating a forum is hard.


The whiners thing, definitely not cool, especially as a jab to others with different opinions. What got under my skin was the math thing, and not that he could have known this but I struggled with math in high school with D's and F's, on top of high school being a pretty much a fight for my life each day which was a huge contributor to my low grades. Hard to learn in an environment where you don't feels safe. 

Before anyone follows up with remarks about me exaggerating the hardship I was literally assaulted with weapons several times in my life, told to go kill myself etc. Lots of physical and verbal/emotional abuse in my life, which created a lot of the anger issues I struggle with today.

That said we should probably all think about what we say to people, cause you don't know what they are going through or have been through. 

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12 hours ago, WylieFox said:

I'm already extremely sick of feeling like I need to log in every night to play a boring calibration mini game just to keep my head above water with the new tax system.. Please NQ, cut us players who don't want to or can't play every single night some slack, and let us save up some more charges.. I'd love it if the calibration didn't start decreasing until something like 7 days instead of 2, but I'll admit, I haven't done the math, and frankly don't care to.

 

I agree the daily maintenance is sucking the life from me. The basic math I did during PTS told me taxes were going to be tight, but actually having to "pet" these mining units constantly just to pay the IRS is such a boring chore. All of the time doing maintenance takes away from the activities I might actually enjoy!

 

For example I have a 3 tile setup, each with 500l/h hema producing for 5 days, and that only covers 67% of the taxes with hema at 50q (I'm fully spec'd in the new mining talents BTW). Now I have this added time pressure to get ore to the market and sell to get the tax payment in. Of course I expect prices to depress greatly around tax time due to this rush.

 

Honestly, I don't think taxes are the answer. I'm fine with the rapid decay of mining unit production, but it is the pressure of the taxes that make it suck. If you want territory decay, make us go add fuel to TCUs that powers their "ownership field" or some crap (and restore the exponential cost of territory ownership). I don't mind having to touch something to prevent territory decay, but it shouldn't be so often needed that my limited play sessions become all about chores.

 

The mining mini-game itself is not bad. I wish it involved interacting with the actual world and not a goofy 2d space; like deploying probes on the territory and using the scanners or some such, but in its own right it is decent.

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Mini game / mining units are boring as hell. Borderline annoying. 

Before demeter I was warping basically every day around.

Supply was no problem, if I needed more, then I just dug more.

Warplines were spitting out little warp crystals, and fuel tanks were always full.

 

No more.

 

Everything is rationed. Even slow boating a big ship is now considered to

be expensive.

 

All I can do is play with my remaining pre-Demeter resources.

 

All progress is gone.

 

Unsubbed. Game is not worth paying money for it.

 

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