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Bankrupt in three days


Jomanda
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I started playing with a friend about 10 days ago. We have had a lot of fun sofar. Although the "old" mining system was more boring than watching paint dry, doing it together and chatting a bit, made is slightly less mindnumbingly boring. We have built a little base for ourselves, created an organisation that claimed three adjacent tiles.

In building all this up we have not built up any stockpile and therefore at the time that Demeter dropped, we had empty ore containers and 168 Quanta between the two of us.

We somehow managed to get 4 Basic L mining units up, generating 194 units of ore with a current value of 7.865 Quanta, per hour. In three days time we need to pay 3 milion in taxes.

 

This we cannot pay. Considering our current income, it would take 381 hours to mine that. And this bill is recurring every week. In other words we are bankrupt.

 

I just wish that the taxrate would increase with each additional territory (and possibly give the first one or two tiles for free), just like placing each territory control unit gets more expensive. we still very much are n00bs in this game and the learning curve is already very steep, but from our point of view the Demeter patch has killed any chance for new players to get a foothold at all. I would have loved to see space and other celestial objects and perhaps even some PVP...

 

Anyway, we really had a lot of fun, but right now there is no point for us to continue playing. Our small base is at ::pos{0,2,56.5535,-170.9944,32.7241} it should be free to loot in a few days.

 

Goodbye!

 

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Totally agree people making the game don't understand economics, resource scarcity. But especially the fact that time is money. They say you have unlimited ore. But 100 - 400L/hr is nowhere near unlimited; because time is not unlimited.

 

My group's resources have not dried up YET. 

Would you be interested in joining me? See if we can get you and us through this?

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Yea... 

NQ dropped the ball on this one.. 

Instead of making it extremely cheap and then raising the cost to adjust to the need, they went with the highest cost they could justify... 

 

Maybe they are trying to fix the econony problem with making mining hard. 

 

But something was left out of this equation: user experience... 

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21 minutes ago, Captain_Hilts said:

Totally agree people making the game don't understand economics, resource scarcity. But especially the fact that time is money. They say you have unlimited ore. But 100 - 400L/hr is nowhere near unlimited; because time is not unlimited.

I agree! Time = Quanta

 

BUT... If you have high skills (just as with mining), adjacent tiles, and a strategic setup you can get significantly more ore per minute spend automining then manual mining. There is just a hard cap on how much time you can spend on that per day, which translates into a hardcap of ore per day doing just automining.

 

How many have been mining a million liters per week, and how much time do you spend mining that? And if you're doing mega-nodes, how much time spend finding those (every week)?

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If you have tiles that you want to hold on to because you want to build on them, but they don't produce enough ore to pay for themselves, then just designate them a Headquarters tile and don't pay the taxes.

 

You can build on up to five tiles that way on Alioth for free.  And one on the sanctuary moon.  and as many as you want in space.  All for free.

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1 hour ago, Atmosph3rik said:

If you have tiles that you want to hold on to because you want to build on them, but they don't produce enough ore to pay for themselves, then just designate them a Headquarters tile and don't pay the taxes.

 

You can build on up to five tiles that way on Alioth for free.  And one on the sanctuary moon.  and as many as you want in space.  All for free.

You can't mine or run industry on them when the taxes are due though..

But yeah, the excuse "just set them as HQ tiles" allready seems to be taking hold, even while it is meaningless and not valid in this case.

 

So while you may not lose ownership, you still will not be able to generate the quanta needed to pay for them unless you go run missions all day long, which kind of defeats the purpose and makes DU a second job instead of a game. 

 

Well done NQ.. well done..

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1 hour ago, Jake Arver said:

You can't mine or run industry on them when the taxes are due though..

But yeah, the excuse "just set them as HQ tiles" allready seems to be taking hold, even while it is meaningless and not valid in this case.

 

So while you may not lose ownership, you still will not be able to generate the quanta needed to pay for them unless you go run missions all day long, which kind of defeats the purpose and makes DU a second job instead of a game. 

 

Well done NQ.. well done..

 

I think you're still missing some key information.

 

You don't have to pay the taxes on the HQ tiles, unless you want to use them for industry or mining.

 

OP is stuck in a situation where they are trying to pay for tiles that aren't going to pay for themselves.  That's a mistake.

 

If you don't need a tile to make quanta, then don't pay the taxes on it.  Make it an HQ tile, or give it up.

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It's a circular argument..

It's like you country's government requiring you to pay them so you are able to go to work to make money and then pay them. 

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T1 prices have dropped to bot pricing. I was unsure which way it would go but this was certainly one possibility.  People who used to do no mining or mining just for their own industrial use are now forced to sell to market.  So, the price plummets.

1st off.  DONT PANIC.  I also may go bankrupt :)  If a lot of players go bankrupt they will have to make adjustments.

2nd, we get 150K quanta daily

3rd.  Try having just one hex for now and do everything from there.

4th.  I thought we had 1 week without tax for the start of Demeter

 

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9 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

@Jomanda as far as I know, nobody needs to start paying territory taxes for another 11 days.


If you think you could bootstrap yourselves with the right equipment, and if you'd like to continue playing, then you can borrow the equipment you need from me until you're up and running. Mining units, containers, territory scanner, things like that. And an atmo hauler to sell your stuff at the markets. Just let me know.

New tile claims get taxed after 3 days.

In general, you currently need to mine 120L/hr of any ore off of a tile to be able to pay for the territory taxes over a week. But, since you only have 3 days for a new claim, you instead need to mine 300L/hr of ore. This works for the time being because all T1 ore sells for more than 50q/L.

If you don't plan on doing mining, or if 300L/hr is too much, I would suggest downsizing to 1 tile for mining and industry, and keeping the other 2 tiles as HQ tiles.

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My advice would be head out to space if you can and hit up some roids, that is what I will be doing if I need to make short term money.  Or run a few missions.

Also, in 11 days, there will be FREE STUFF, likes LOADS OF FREE STUFF literally everywhere.  Noone is going to be poor or needy at all, dont believe the hype.  So the same patch that 'killed you' will also give you a MASSIVE boost.  Salvaging will be a valid gameplay loop.

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Really it was just amazingly bad timing when you joined. You explored, you went out to Alioth, you set up some hex’s, but you don’t have a economic path right now.

 

My suggestion would be to mark your three Alioth hexs as HQ, and then ignore them until you are ready to run them. Now retreat back to your hex (one each if two of you) on Sanctuary. Now you don’t have any tax bill coming in.

 

Do some surface gathering and make some small mining units for your Sanctuary claim.

 

Now you have a income of ore coming in. it is only T1,

- you can now make a small T1 factory if factories are your areas of interest.

- If space is where you want to go, you can mine with small mining units and a little surface gathering to get everything you need to make a beginners space craft and fuel.

- if building structures is your area, there is a lot of honeycomb which can be made with T1 ore (which you now have a supply of)

 

Now it is time to determine the (first) direction of play you want to go. If you are u sure then place some talent training into mining units so it will increase your income for when you do wish to branch out.

 

This is how I see new players starting now, you just started a couple of weeks early with the previous new player system. 

 

Oh and very important, training (online or off) is 90 points/minute if there is something in your que; but you only get 5 (or is it 6) talent points a minute if there isn’t something training... so always have stuff training!

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5 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

If you have tiles that you want to hold on to because you want to build on them, but they don't produce enough ore to pay for themselves, then just designate them a Headquarters tile and don't pay the taxes.

 

You can build on up to five tiles that way on Alioth for free.  And one on the sanctuary moon.  and as many as you want in space.  All for free.

Yeah but those hex are not making you any quanta.

The T1 ore price has collapsed to the point that MU may not pay for the rent.  Very tough on new players

 

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26 minutes ago, Underhook said:

Yeah but those hex are not making you any quanta.

The T1 ore price has collapsed to the point that MU may not pay for the rent.  Very tough on new players

 

Not really that tough, when you can go and steal 100M worth of stuff from other players now, the gameplay has changed, stop focusing on tiles and mining all the time.  You can do a single safe zone mission a week per tile to pay your bills.  Mine a single mid tier asteroid..

Also I am a bit confused how T1 ore prices have collapsed...... define collapsed.  Not been playing that often but you can still sell T1 for 50-100h.  It was only a few months ago it was half that.

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53 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

Not really that tough, when you can go and steal 100M worth of stuff from other players now, the gameplay has changed, stop focusing on tiles and mining all the time.  You can do a single safe zone mission a week per tile to pay your bills.  Mine a single mid tier asteroid..

Also I am a bit confused how T1 ore prices have collapsed...... define collapsed.  Not been playing that often but you can still sell T1 for 50-100h.  It was only a few months ago it was half that.

Coal is currently 25 quanta, its back up to 50 now.  Earlier today the best price was 25.  Dont know whats going on

 

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11 minutes ago, Underhook said:

Coal is currently 25 quanta

 

No it REALLY isnt, the best buy order is 70 and the lowest sell order is 90...... unless I have completely forgot how the market works, I have been on a break, so could be the case.  Unless you are looking at bot buy orders and taking that as the price, in which case, not sure what to say...... apart from avoid discussing the economy.

Coal.thumb.jpg.e39fc8b6ce3b462a9731b615655e895e.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

No it REALLY isnt, the best buy order is 70 and the lowest sell order is 90...... unless I have completely forgot how the market works, I have been on a break, so could be the case.  Unless you are looking at bot buy orders and taking that as the price, in which case, not sure what to say......

Coal.thumb.jpg.e39fc8b6ce3b462a9731b615655e895e.jpg

10 mins ago all those 60's were 50's

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13 minutes ago, Underhook said:

Coal is currently 25 quanta, its back up to 50 now.  Earlier today the best price was 25.  Dont know whats going on

 

What went on was you didnt sort the buy orders and were looking at the bot prices, which are always 25 ;)

Either way I think we can agree that the price of ore has NOT collapsed, that said, as the price drops, more of the ore whales will start to wet their knickers an possibly dump, so prices could still go down and they will lose a lot of money, which will be funny.

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So, I just found out by looking at my map and then asking in chat that new hex only have 3 days before tax is to be paid.  Was this communicated anywhere?  I had read that we have a 2 week graced period.  From what I now understand that was only for old hex which I pulled up in preparation.   ON top of that because I had no idea what I was doing I put a couple claim units on hex I dont want.  I went to remove them but I cant because they have a cooling of period.  Now I have to pay 1 million each and the game wont let me remove them.  Arghhhhh

 

I just had a look.  Territory units are under 400,000.  I guess I just let them take them.  

 

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I think we all hoped ore prices would reduce thus things get cheaper to make and then you can do more in the game.  However mining units are rubbish and are not yielding the amount of ore needed to sustain.  Like I say they are pushing you to roids and more to a broken pvp system.  Add in missions were nerfed for org or group runs and not hitting the big alt runs it isn't helping.

 

My suggestion is see if you can join a  larger group perhaps?

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1 hour ago, Underhook said:

So, I just found out by looking at my map and then asking in chat that new hex only have 3 days before tax is to be paid.  Was this communicated anywhere?  I had read that we have a 2 week graced period.  From what I now understand that was only for old hex which I pulled up in preparation.   ON top of that because I had no idea what I was doing I put a couple claim units on hex I dont want.  I went to remove them but I cant because they have a cooling of period.  Now I have to pay 1 million each and the game wont let me remove them.  Arghhhhh

 

I just had a look.  Territory units are under 400,000.  I guess I just let them take them.  

 

 

 

Three days after you claim the tile, the tax is due.  If you don't pay it, you won't be able to run mining units or industry on the tiles.  

 

Now you have two weeks before the tile becomes abandoned, so plenty of time to wait another week and pick up your TU

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