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DEVBLOG: TERRITORY UPKEEP - Discussion Thread


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1 hour ago, Cergorach said:

I'm seeing so much opportunities with the Demeter launch, it's not funny! Those who adopt early will have way more opportunities then those that wait.  Am I willing to share, heck yes! With everybody? Heck no! The loudmouths ruin it for everybody! ?

Sure, but no matter how you spin it people are now forced to conform to a certain way of playing this game.

 

It is no longer possible to be totally self sufficient, slowly grow your empire and have total control over how much time to spend on generating quanta vs directing 100% of your resources into your own projects. The game now mostly caters only to those that want to jump in at the deep end and "play the game", at the expense of the more casual players and solo builders. And when you add subscription on top of that and consider players today have plenty of games to choose between. That doesn't seem like a very smart move to me.

 

It is also inevitable that a forced need to generate quanta in a game where selling ore is the only for sure quanta source, is going to affect market prices.

And the only existing mechanic that can keep this in check is fixed price bots. So there goes that free marked people wanted down the drain.

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2 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

people are now forced to conform to a certain way of playing this game.

And they weren't before? Of course they were, you're just used to it!

 

If you think that solo players and casual builders are no longer possible or severely restricted, that speaks more about you, than actual limitations in gameplay. It must be so compfy in your box, that looking outside of it is just not an option...

 

Ore selling to other players is not a Quanta source, a Quanta source is your daily reward, the Quanta you get from running missions, and the items you sell to NPC buy orders). So that Quanta is only moving around in the DU economy, not entering it or exiting it. The problem now is inflation, due to way more Quanta entering the game then leaving it, the same happened on a smaller scale with the NPC buy orders (specifically for components). That is part of why schematics were introduced, the first Quanta sink and a limit on how flexible you are with massive, massive (automated) factories without spending a TON of Quanta. Taxes are a way to drain the Quanta entering from missioning.

 

What I'm noticing that the biggest loudmouths screaming their heads off are also the most unimaginative, inflexible lot that's playing DU.

 

Want to build? Build something small, people want, and sell it. Build something bigger and sell it, etc. Or just find a patron that pays you to build for them with their mats.

 

Want to mine? Join a group of space miners and go asteroid mining.

 

Want to pvp? Join a pirate group.

 

Want to do your own thing without any other player interaction? Go play Minecraft or Space Engineers! This is an MMO.

 

Do you play 'casually'? I don't think you mined a million liters of ore an evening... So why expect that now that you can't planet mine anymore? And yeah, there are different gradations of 'casual' and some only have a few evenings a week to play. They can still play the game, they'll just won't have more then a 5 tiles +1 on sanctuary. If that's not enough, are you really a casual player?

 

I am not happy with all the changes. But I can adapt. I'm not even as bothered by most changes, what I'm extremely worried about is the unreliable statements coming out of NQ, players giving them money for it and basing long term ingame decisions on those unreliable statements.

 

What people also don't seem to get is that the Organizations structure in DU isn't the same one as in other MMOs such as Guilds and Corps. You can be a member of up to five, for a plethora of reasons, what you can do within the org is governed by RDMS, the same goes for org owned tiles, vehicles and structures. Use that!

 

But what I'm mostly hearing "I want to keep my own sandbox!" (aka. tile), "I don't want to share my sandbox with others!", "Owning my own sandbox is too expensive!", "Can't play anymore like I want!". Most of us growing up didn't actually have their own sandbox, we used the one in the communal area or the one at school. If one wanted to dig, one dug. If the other wanted to make a sandcastle, they made a sandcastle. If kids were friendly towards each other, the one digging would fill up the buckets for the one building the sandcastle. The benefit for the one digging was that his hole wouldn't fill in due to their pile of sand getting to big next to the hole they're digging. Maybe look at DU as that same sandbox, you can actually play together in the same sandbox (tile) as others. Don't trust others, fine, find ones you do trust. Don't trust anybody? You're limiting your own play experience and maybe shouldn't be playing a MMO...

 

Edited: apparently there are still NPC buy orders *facepalm!*

 

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Just now, Cergorach said:

And they weren't before? Of course they were, you're just used to it!

 

If you think that solo players and casual builders are no longer possible or severely restricted, that speaks more about you, than actual limitations in gameplay. It must be so compfy in your box, that looking outside of it is just not an option...

 

Ore selling to other players is not a Quanta source, a Quanta source is your daily reward and the Quanta you get from running missions (there are currently no NPC buy orders). So that Quanta is only moving around in the DU economy, not entering it or exiting it. The problem now is inflation, due to way more Quanta entering the game then leaving it, the same happened on a smaller scale with the NPC buy orders (specifically for components). That is part of why schematics were introduced, the first Quanta sink and a limit on how flexible you are with massive, massive (automated) factories without spending a TON of Quanta. Taxes are a way to drain the Quanta entering from missioning.

 

What I'm noticing that the biggest loudmouths screaming their heads off are also the most unimaginative, inflexible lot that's playing DU.

 

Want to build? Build something small, people want, and sell it. Build something bigger and sell it, etc. Or just find a patron that pays you to build for them with their mats.

 

Want to mine? Join a group of space miners and go asteroid mining.

 

Want to pvp? Join a pirate group.

 

Want to do your own thing without any other player interaction? Go play Minecraft or Space Engineers! This is an MMO.

 

Do you play 'casually'? I don't think you mined a million liters of ore an evening... So why expect that now that you can't planet mine anymore? And yeah, there are different gradations of 'casual' and some only have a few evenings a week to play. They can still play the game, they'll just won't have more then a 5 tiles +1 on sanctuary. If that's not enough, are you really a casual player?

 

I am not happy with all the changes. But I can adapt. I'm not even as bothered by most changes, what I'm extremely worried about is the unreliable statements coming out of NQ, players giving them money for it and basing long term ingame decisions on those unreliable statements.

 

What people also don't seem to get is that the Organizations structure in DU isn't the same one as in other MMOs such as Guilds and Corps. You can be a member of up to five, for a plethora of reasons, what you can do within the org is governed by RDMS, the same goes for org owned tiles, vehicles and structures. Use that!

 

But what I'm mostly hearing "I want to keep my own sandbox!" (aka. tile), "I don't want to share my sandbox with others!", "Owning my own sandbox is too expensive!", "Can't play anymore like I want!". Most of us growing up didn't actually have their own sandbox, we used the one in the communal area or the one at school. If one wanted to dig, one dug. If the other wanted to make a sandcastle, they made a sandcastle. If kids were friendly towards each other, the one digging would fill up the buckets for the one building the sandcastle. The benefit for the one digging was that his hole wouldn't fill in due to their pile of sand getting to big next to the hole they're digging. Maybe look at DU as that same sandbox, you can actually play together in the same sandbox (tile) as others. Don't trust others, fine, find ones you do trust. Don't trust anybody? You're limiting your own play experience and maybe shouldn't be playing a MMO...

 

Ok telling people to join a group or go play another game is 'unimaginative, inflexible', also typing a lot for people to read is being the 'biggest loudmouths screaming'. I also notice that you basically repeat your first post and no one really wants that in a discussion (Saying: 'I disagree - see my first post', would have done).

I do however accept you points can be valid however, there are many caveats to this, the most important of these is how available are the mining spikes. Since if they have to built and  / or sold it can still be an issue. As for people going on holiday or heaven forbid being on long term sick, you basically wipe anyone who has the fortune to survive their illness, which while not life threatening is a slap in the face.

As for peoples concerns about anything new they should all be voiced to allow the developer to consider them so people should post all of their concerns (Preferably once) and discuss as needed.

As for me I judge all games on their single player since if they are not fun then their is no point in playing.

 

Multiplayer experience changes based on who is online and if they are drunk (or whatever..), not to mention if their is politics or 'underhanded ness'.

 

So to be clear playing a game to pay tax does not equals fun. I have a job I have no intention of playing a game to pay taxes.

Though I will say I have played since Alpha (Tried twice but it was too low a frame rate to play) and been very happy with the creations I have been able to make so far, as a result, I will be giving the update a go no matter how it works at the time of release.

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38 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

And they weren't before? Of course they were, you're just used to it!

 

If you think that solo players and casual builders are no longer possible or severely restricted, that speaks more about you, than actual limitations in gameplay. It must be so compfy in your box, that looking outside of it is just not an option...

Yes, of course I am comfortable in my "own box". But that "box" is something that NQ sold me and told me was completely ok to do when I joined this game, and the reason why I joined this game in the first place. There is a reason this game is filled with Landmark refugees and solo builders..

 

Quote

Ore selling to other players is not a Quanta source, a Quanta source is your daily reward and the Quanta you get from running missions (there are currently no NPC buy orders). So that Quanta is only moving around in the DU economy, not entering it or exiting it. The problem now is inflation, due to way more Quanta entering the game then leaving it, the same happened on a smaller scale with the NPC buy orders (specifically for components). That is part of why schematics were introduced, the first Quanta sink and a limit on how flexible you are with massive, massive (automated) factories without spending a TON of Quanta. Taxes are a way to drain the Quanta entering from missioning.

Uh.. What? How is an infinite source of auto mined ore, not a quanta source?

 

 

Quote

What I'm noticing that the biggest loudmouths screaming their heads off are also the most unimaginative, inflexible lot that's playing DU.

 

Want to build? Build something small, people want, and sell it. Build something bigger and sell it, etc. Or just find a patron that pays you to build for them with their mats.

 

Want to mine? Join a group of space miners and go asteroid mining.

 

Want to pvp? Join a pirate group.

 

Want to do your own thing without any other player interaction? Go play Minecraft or Space Engineers! This is an MMO.

I want to play the game NQ sold me when I joined. Plain and simple.

DU is or at least used to be a building focused MMO, and that makes it different from other MMO's. And the reason why there are so many so called "care bears" and casual players in this game.

 

Quote

Do you play 'casually'? I don't think you mined a million liters of ore an evening... So why expect that now that you can't planet mine anymore? And yeah, there are different gradations of 'casual' and some only have a few evenings a week to play. They can still play the game, they'll just won't have more then a 5 tiles +1 on sanctuary. If that's not enough, are you really a casual player?

Casually does not automatically mean small scale. Casually means when you want to, and for as long as you want to. And again, DU was supposed to be a builders MMO, with all the changes that brings from your regular run of the mill MMO.

 

 

Quote

I am not happy with all the changes. But I can adapt. I'm not even as bothered by most changes, what I'm extremely worried about is the unreliable statements coming out of NQ, players giving them money for it and basing long term ingame decisions on those unreliable statements.

 

What people also don't seem to get is that the Organizations structure in DU isn't the same one as in other MMOs such as Guilds and Corps. You can be a member of up to five, for a plethora of reasons, what you can do within the org is governed by RDMS, the same goes for org owned tiles, vehicles and structures. Use that!

The problem is when the changes are directly opposed to the core game we where sold earlier. DU, the rebuild a civilization MMO. And a game that now suddenly nukes you building projects from orbit with ballistic "tax" bombs, is not a game that incentivizes building a civilization no matter how you look at it.

 

 

Quote

But what I'm mostly hearing "I want to keep my own sandbox!" (aka. tile), "I don't want to share my sandbox with others!", "Owning my own sandbox is too expensive!", "Can't play anymore like I want!". Most of us growing up didn't actually have their own sandbox, we used the one in the communal area or the one at school. If one wanted to dig, one dug. If the other wanted to make a sandcastle, they made a sandcastle. If kids were friendly towards each other, the one digging would fill up the buckets for the one building the sandcastle. The benefit for the one digging was that his hole wouldn't fill in due to their pile of sand getting to big next to the hole they're digging. Maybe look at DU as that same sandbox, you can actually play together in the same sandbox (tile) as others. Don't trust others, fine, find ones you do trust. Don't trust anybody? You're limiting your own play experience and maybe shouldn't be playing a MMO...

Now you are mostly projecting and putting words into other peoples mounts. There are of course all specters of players, but what we all have in common is a game that NQ told us we could play the way we play. And that game had mega cities, space stations the size of moons and a focus on "make your own game" type of playing.

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37 minutes ago, ADCOne said:

Ok telling people to join a group or go play another game is 'unimaginative, inflexible'

That is not what I was/am saying. What I am saying is, if you want a single player game, why play a MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online? There are WAY better single player (or even with limited multiplayer) games/experiences out there that do things similar to DU. My mind would boggle if NQ would cater to people that want a single player experience in DU. Keep in mind that I'm not saying solo player, as I'm at my core a solo player in MMOs. But I'm buying tons of stuff from other players, ranging from ore, to elements, to BPs, to scripts, to ships. I risks my ships by flying some of them slow-boat style through pvp space (and yes I've been blown up before). I compete with other players on the markets with certain goods. I solo play, but still interact with other players. Some comments by the previous posters and to a certain extend your own comments, indicate that they do not want that player interaction. Because if you don't want to pay taxes, why pay them? You don't want to auto mine, why auto mine?

 

As noted previously (or elsewhere), someone is complaining about not able to afford their racetracks anymore. When I suggest that some kind soul might offer their swatches of land for those tracks while those kind soul mines there anyway, this offer is not good because of 'trust'. Find someone you do trust and offers you the same deal. If you can't find anyone, live with your choices and lack of trust!

 

If you're too sick to login in three months to add a couple of million to your most important territories, then you have way bigger problems then some virtual losses in a video game. Not saying it doesn't suck. But we could all be hit by a truck tomorrow and for most it won't be relevant anymore what happens in DU after that...

 

 

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54 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

And that game had mega cities, space stations the size of moons and a focus on "make your own game" type of playing.

This is exactly the point "make your own game" , which is dead for me now. I have no desire to be a tax and mining calibration slave.

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48 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

Uh.. What? How is an infinite source of auto mined ore, not a quanta source?

Sorry, I'm not here to explain economics and game design to you.

 

You can get Quanta for ores, but it is not a Quanta source. You could sell to NPC buy orders (at a third or less of the price then what you can get from players), then that buy order is the Quanta source and not the ore itself. A Quanta source and exit determines inflation or deflation (how much you can buy with your Quanta).

 

The KS title:

"Dual Universe :: Civilization Building Sci-Fi MMORPG"

Loosing our stuff on the outer planets was always 'sold' during the KS and during the launch of the beta. What wasn't mentioned though was that we could be taxed into oblivion. And I really dislike it! But anyone who thinks that game mechanic will change at this date is very naive! Sure we can complain, we do. But the: "We all can't do x/y/z anymore." Is just a bunch of people saying that they can't do x/y/z anymore in a very specific way.

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5 hours ago, Cergorach said:

Sorry, I'm not here to explain economics and game design to you.

 

You can get Quanta for ores, but it is not a Quanta source. You could sell to NPC buy orders (at a third or less of the price then what you can get from players), then that buy order is the Quanta source and not the ore itself. A Quanta source and exit determines inflation or deflation (how much you can buy with your Quanta).

Now you are loosing sight of the context. And the context was "will tax lead to ore price deflation?". And in that context, mining and selling ore is still the only for sure way to generate the quanta needed to pay tax. Hence there will be a large influx of players wanting to sell ore on the markets, with obvious results.

 

And the ore price problem may also be further compacted since tax means less incentive for players wanting to do large build projects that would require lots of resources.

 

5 hours ago, Cergorach said:

The KS title:

"Dual Universe :: Civilization Building Sci-Fi MMORPG"

Loosing our stuff on the outer planets was always 'sold' during the KS and during the launch of the beta. What wasn't mentioned though was that we could be taxed into oblivion.

And I really dislike it! But anyone who thinks that game mechanic will change at this date is very naive! Sure we can complain, we do. But the: "We all can't do x/y/z anymore." Is just

a bunch of people saying that they can't do x/y/z anymore in a very specific way.

Most of those hostile ways of loosing your stuff has ways of mitigating risk. Build underground and stay low key, build defenses, build close to others for protection, pay for protection, safe ring around Alioth and markets etc. But tax as implemented on the other hand, is just something that happens regardless.

 

And it is not naivety. It is pure frustration watching all the things happen that we warned about and said to NQ would happen from the very beginning . And then having to watch NQ do nothing for years, and only now start reacting with let's say.. sub optimal quick fix solutions.

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A

16 hours ago, Cergorach said:

?

 

You know they only said that the ore on the PTS seeded would be different than on live. Since they origionally intended to keep scans before they flip flopped. So they didnt want people to pre-game tile running and landgrabs. The numbers will remain the same with the relative min  max l/h totals and max tile output.

 

Why do I bring up T1? Its the most abundant number we will get. I personally saw a tile that had 210l/h and my bro said he saw 280l/h so im going to assume the best you will ever see is 300l/h. Every other tier ill assume is half that so if T1=300 T2 top end is 150, T3 is 75, T4 is 37.6, and T5 is 18.75 max as the best you will ever see. Seeing from the screenshots that were shown in the first Vlog it looked like T2 ore had a l/h of 6. I could be wrong and dont want to watch it again.

 

That is utterly abysmal.

 

Lets say 300 is the best you will ever see top end. First lets consider the minigame and say with max talents you can get 10 charges every 35 hours. With 168 hours a week and 208.6 max charges per month and a max of 5kl per mini-game the best you can hope for per month that route is 1,043,000 liters of T1 ore via the mini-game if you dont miss using a single charge, hit the efficiency perfectly, and get the 5kl spawn perfectly thats all you can ever hope to get.

 

If you consider that 300l/h from the auto miners themselves will produce 7,200L per day, and 216,000L a month with no tile bonus. with 7 tiles with the outer 6 you can produce 1,296,000 and the middle tile producing 365,000 with the x6/60% bonus for a grand total of a cluster being 1,551,000L. With the mini game the best you will ever get per cluster using all 208.6 cahrges, not missing a day, and hitting max efficiency is 2,704,000 or 14.083 L containers (with PD's) per month per cluster for T1 ore. Any higher tier gets abysmally worse from there.

 

Considering I could bring in 14-21 L containers of the same ore in a week on a bad week its pretty much 1/4 of what I was getting right off the top and it never gets better than that it only gets worse since that is all perfect numbers if you found such a grouping.

 

Considering it will take 28 million to even potentially pull a max of 2,704,000 at current market rates lets say or is 100h for T1. Thats 280,000L I need to sell to cover the cluster. Right now best T1 price is 90 on the MP so you really have to dump 311kl to cover the cluster at market rates in T1 ore leaving 2,393,000L left to play with which sounds all well and good without mentioning the tax to post it on the market.

 

Now for a second consider the 20h p/l prices we were paying back when NQ was propping the market up. Dont think for a second if people are forced to post ore on the market in the tune of 311kl per player it wont plummit down to whatever level and for this example lets say 20h p/l. You still have to post 1,400,000L of ore to pay the tax on the cluster and also the tax on 1.4 mil L of ore which means you will need even more to just break even and now you are down to 1,305000L per month to break even or 6.70 L containers (with PD's) per month which is even worse by now getting 1/10th the output I was getting on a bad week pulling 14-21 boxes a month and getting 6.70 L containers per month.

 

If you are even serious about progression at all you will need a tile cluster for every ore type over T1 to make it worth even doing and that requires 17 clusters of tiles spread across multiple planets or moons for a total of 119 tiles and at 28 mil per cluster its 476,000,000 quanta per month to do that with no other option but to own the tiles.

 

If you consider waiting the year for a box of T5 ore to even quantify transporting to wherever your industry is located to produce some kind of product currently you are looking at 37k per warp cell to not get your ship pink slipped. and that is not including all the warps to the other planets to pick up the 17 clusters worth of tiles and whatever else ore you will need making that number exponentially higher if you are getting 1/4th-1/10Th+ less ore than before blowing even more Quanta then you origionally would make.

 

With that type of system shock eating up what is left in the overall pool it will drive up any ore above T1 by double its current price making the costs of warp cells to not get your ships jacked by double at least 75k to warp and most orgs will keep those ores to themselves to cut the costs doubling the price for warp cells again to 150k per warp cells to sieze ships trying to slow boat.

 

If you want consider that ships now capable of transporting 50+ boxes of ore are easily 250-500mil each depending on what is on it those losses are going to be catastrophic.

 

If you think about doing missions you could make 18mil round trip from Alioth to Jano and back or 7mil per person round trip inside the bubble. Considering that missions and asteroid mining will be the only way to really get ahead once demeter goes live running a 3 person mission runner cost about 250m to put together with all the bells and whistles and fully optimized with PD's and full piloting talents our lowest costs on kergon round trip were 23kl trying every which way we could metagame it.

 

Seeing the current cost range of Kergon, rare T4 Kergon is 1000h p/l right now. If we were to be forced to buy that making 21mil per run we would pay with current market costs 23,000,000h for the gas. and even with base T1-3 Basic-uncommon kergon being 100-109 its still 2,300,000-2.507,000 per trip making 18,700,000-18,500,000 profit. Since it will take at least 2 trips per week just to cover the cost of one cluster with a little left over and that is not including any crashes or if AGG suddenly breaks from the bouncing which does happen basically washing any profits for the whole run.

 

When people are all constantly running missions and all those trillions per month get injected into the game to break even everything is going to be worth less even if it looks like its worth more as you have a constant inflation coming into the game along with unlimited limited ore coming in as well further watering down the value of items that is no longer tied to a finite ore pool or supply and demand vs effort as time goes on.

 

This willl also put a huge drain on the conumables of Nitron, Kergon, warp cells when you are forced to do multiple runs and getting 1/4th+% of the ore entering the system.

 

I do expect that the only thing going to be worth a damn as far as parts goes will be space based parts since all you will need is a space station that is tax free to run missions or tracel form planet to planet to collect ore and transport it to your industry since basically this update kills all atmo parts further making most T3 and lower parts unsellable if you want to use your spare ore to try to make some money.

 

If you want to do asteroids consider there will be more competition and potentially sabotage, wasting gas getting to the 5 potential spawn points, and only really being a weekend activity inside the bubble and if you fly solo then you wont be able to mine it fast enough to justify chasing asteroids if you can get it fast enough before the server messages pop. Outside the bubble asteroid hunting? You are just asking to get ganked if you dont roll with an escort of a couple of ships for overwatch and are basically mining for whoever comes to gank you or spending all your gains warping. Im good on that.

 

So can you make money sure but who knows when NQ is going to turn around next and fuck you over even harder for just trying to play the game in any normal capacity.

 

I would love to make my actual base my HQ since the broken geometry put it into two tiles and it has an industry I dont really want to tear down multiple cores worth of industry to make it a tax haven and with 2 tiles its not worth mining and tht assuming that anything in the area is worth mining when demeter goes live. And I certainly dont need all the tiles I already have put down since there is no knowing if they are even good and all of them arent even in a cluster and even if they were they are in my personal and org tags and under two orgs beyond that.

 

I dont care for this update much and seeing the numbers is hella depressing or where I could just travel to any planet grab what I needed and go back to base I now need multiple tile clusters for whatever or is there, 28mill a month per tile for the 3 ore types, and all the scanning that is now required to go even begin to find them.

 

I was able to progress but this update is a mountain of red tape, sinks, and a grief loop treadmill.

 

Now none of that take into account the actual setup costs of creating at the least 17 tile clusters of 119 tiles just for all the 119 TUs, 119 cores, overkilling the mining units on each of them, containers, transfer units, vr setups and everything else im not thinking of right now.

 

Then you have to think that NQ is going to drop Territory Warfare hastily in like 3-9 possibly 12 months or sooner to start bringing in subs rather than bleeding money left and right. Considering it will likely take a hear to get a box of T5 ore what is the point when ill just end up handing it over when some other org just ganks it. And if I have to physically put money into the TUs for the tax 400+mil of work per month is kinda impossible to do anyhow.

 

Or if NQ goes and makes gold at 300l/h or anthing else more than half the tier before they are basically going to kill the value of that ore or make it so that the ote itself does not matter or all the items they make. Im sure there will likely be juice tiles with crazy outputs or minimal amounts of clusters that are all profitable but it will be sheer luck with scans. If you take too long to find one you are just bleeding time setting up tiles if you already own some at 4mil a month each scanning.

 

And the other can of worms NQ is opening up here with VR allowing for people to potentially do charges remote with full talents as a poster here has said without being basic T1 Talents is that why cant you do VR putdowns with T5 talents, Why cant you do everything with vr like pushing burrons and using an elevator with T5 talents, Why cant you fly a ship in VR, and why not just have teleports? Its a slippery slope imo.

 

This patch also seems like NQ had the bight idea to avoid a wipe before launch (they still will) by consolidating all the dead tiles and pushing people out of the game from returning and at the same time removing all the Quanta inflation due to the mission system in taxes by forcing people to inject more than is taken out by doing even more forced mission and posting all your ore intot he market that wont sell, get instantly outbid, and nobody can buy. 

 

Great move if you ask me. Its still going to need a full wipe.

 

Also I would have spent more time on the PTs but someone deleted a lot of the scans we had and so im not going to spend 15 mins on the PTS server trying to see whats out there when scanning should be instant to test the mechanic...

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20 hours ago, Cergorach said:

As noted previously (or elsewhere), someone is complaining about not able to afford their racetracks anymore. When I suggest that some kind soul might offer their swatches of land for those tracks while those kind soul mines there anyway, this offer is not good because of 'trust'. Find someone you do trust and offers you the same deal. If you can't find anyone, live with your choices and lack of trust!

 

Thats some "by the power of friendship" BS if i ever heard it^^ The trust i talked about isn't limited to "do i trust that player as person" but more like "can i trust another player to log in weekly to pay the taxes for the hex". Because there are loads of reasons why that person might not be able to login anymore even tho he wants to, be it monetary or health reasons, or whatever. And losing a build you worked months on because of something like that is a matter thats just a no-go. 

 

With the tax system DU basically removed the creative build mode. Until now builders participated a lot in the economy by buying ores, HC or elements. Now that might drastically reduce, because builders can't "just work" on their project anymore.

For example i'll have to tear down my temple building, because its on a hex of someone who can't log in:

 

unknown.png?width=1084&height=629

 

It might not be the prettiest building, but it still did take quite a lot of time. With their taxes NQ effectively reduces the amount of landmarks ppl might want to visit or which they could advertise.

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21 hours ago, Cergorach said:

If you're too sick to login in three months to add a couple of million to your most important territories, then you have way bigger problems then some virtual losses in a video game

 

 

True but its still a slap in the face if you survive an illness and then return to a game you were enjoying to find everything was lost. I only mention it since it would be nice to have the possibility considered especially in a game that takes so much effort to accomplish anything (to me it makes it more fun / satisfying to make things so I am not suggesting a nurf).

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9 minutes ago, ADCOne said:

True but its still a slap in the face if you survive an illness and then return to a game you were enjoying to find everything was lost. I only mention it since it would be nice to have the possibility considered especially in a game that takes so much effort to accomplish anything (to me it makes it more fun / satisfying to make things so I am not suggesting a nurf).

 

Its years to build up for an hour of fury to destroy. That ratio in any game is a bad thing. With Demeter I feel like a lot of recipes in crafting need to be revisited since you now get at best 1/4 what you were getting across the board for the up front cost of getting ore, paying tax.

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Some questions that were asked were probably lost here.
 

Quanta and quanta difference
 

There are quanta that can be created out of nothing. 
- Login Bonus
- missions
 

There are quanta that you will only push from a to b.
- Player A buys something from player B (via the inventory or a dispenser)
 

There are quanta that will be shifted from A to B and will thus shift
- Player A buys something from player B via the market and pays tax on it
 

There are quanta that simply disappear from the game.
- Taxes on territories (Demeter)
- Acquiring tiles generates a fee 
- Buying/selling via the market removes taxes from the game.

 


 

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51 minutes ago, vylqun said:

 

Thats some "by the power of friendship" BS if i ever heard it^^ The trust i talked about isn't limited to "do i trust that player as person" but more like "can i trust another player to log in weekly to pay the taxes for the hex". Because there are loads of reasons why that person might not be able to login anymore even tho he wants to, be it monetary or health reasons, or whatever. And losing a build you worked months on because of something like that is a matter thats just a no-go. 

 

With the tax system DU basically removed the creative build mode. Until now builders participated a lot in the economy by buying ores, HC or elements. Now that might drastically reduce, because builders can't "just work" on their project anymore.

For example i'll have to tear down my temple building, because its on a hex of someone who can't log in:

 

unknown.png?width=1084&height=629

 

It might not be the prettiest building, but it still did take quite a lot of time. With their taxes NQ effectively reduces the amount of landmarks ppl might want to visit or which they could advertise.

Yeah the superfriends captain planet trip NQ and others are on here is laughable.

 

There have been a bunch of examples of people in this game given trust or playing the long con just long enough to loot billions or trillions in assets as soon as you get the chance or siphoning whatever they can on the way out.

 

In many games I have played people feel entitled to what you have or a guild/org has and helps themselves to what has been amassed as a group. In this game its not as bad but guilds/orgs here are nothing more than a roster without any kind of guild mechanics, quests to do that give anything more than a small amount of quanta, no epic, no raid content, nothign to really even join an org for in the first place. TW's eventually but until then its just to gank people, steal from them, and not much else.

 

 

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23 hours ago, Cergorach said:

And they weren't before? Of course they were, you're just used to it!

A player who just wanted to build something could just play as he wanted. There was no direct compulsion to do something because you had to, but only because you wanted to.
 

Once upon a time:
-> Player A builds a building for 1 year and this fulfils this player, it is fun. He builds and goes to collect his own ores as needed.
 

Current:
-> Player A builds a building for 1 year and this fulfils this player, it is fun. He builds and goes to collect his ores as needed. However, he still has to sell some of his ores or fly missions to buy schematics, otherwise he cannot produce all the honeycombs he wants to use.
 

Demeter: 
-> Player A builds a building for 1 year and this fulfils this player, it is fun. He builds and goes to collect his ores himself as needed. 
However, he still has to sell some of his ores or fly missions to buy schematics, otherwise he cannot produce all the honeycombs he wants to use.
He must now also sell some of his ores on the market and/or fly more missions to pay taxes. Collecting ores is then only possible via asteroids: So he needs a ship or he needs modern mining units and has to spend some time on a repetitive mini-game. Likewise, he must now have an active subscription at all times so that one does not suffer a loss of all earned content.

 

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The fundamental issue here is that DU is a MMO with voxel building as one of the main pillars of the game.

 

If NQ for some reason started deleting inventory items or removing quanta from players who did not log in often enough, would that be accepted by players?

 

Now consider a builder. Most of his time, effort and play value is stored in the constructs he or she has created. So losing constructs is for him much the same if not worse then losing inventory or quanta.

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4 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

The fundamental issue here is that DU is a MMO with building.

 

If NQ for some reason started deleting inventory items or removing quanta from players who did not log in often enough, would that be accepted by players?

 

Now consider a builder. Most of his time effort and play value is stored in the constructs he or she has created. So losing constructs is for him much the same if not worse then losing inventory or quanta.

 

Yeah the time, effort, risk, reard, and loss ration is way out of whack for a PvPvBuilder game.

 

Though on another not it would be cool if Experience was added to telements rather than players and had an old school level system for the stats built into the elements themselves to make things better or to actually have players work together with their exp.

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i dont have that kind of money in the wallet, i have never made that kind of money in game, i dont do missions i cant fly a ship without dying every single time( i am bad at building ships but til now i was learning), any ore i do have is 150k from any market, but the important thing is i do not have daily access to the game, rl can take me afk for several weeks at a time. if a go bankrupt while afk how do i earn the q to pay the tax if i cant mine or build on my tile, do i have to do missions or start a go fund me page
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On 11/21/2021 at 6:14 PM, Warlander said:

Lets say 300 is the best you will ever see top end. First lets consider the minigame and say with max talents you can get 10 charges every 35 hours. With 168 hours a week and 208.6 max charges per month and a max of 5kl per mini-game the best you can hope for per month that route is 1,043,000 liters of T1 ore via the mini-game if you dont miss using a single charge, hit the efficiency perfectly, and get the 5kl spawn perfectly thats all you can ever hope to get.

 

If you consider that 300l/h from the auto miners themselves will produce 7,200L per day, and 216,000L a month with no tile bonus. with 7 tiles with the outer 6 you can produce 1,296,000 and the middle tile producing 365,000 with the x6/60% bonus for a grand total of a cluster being 1,551,000L. With the mini game the best you will ever get per cluster using all 208.6 cahrges, not missing a day, and hitting max efficiency is 2,704,000 or 14.083 L containers (with PD's) per month per cluster for T1 ore. Any higher tier gets abysmally worse from there.

I really enjoyed your post and have read it a couple of times. Each time I feel the itch to resub I read this over again and realize it just doesnt sound fun. I do wonder what numbers you are seeing now that demeter has dropped assuming you play anymore? 

 

I do wonder if so many people have to mine now to pay for taxes (yes I know there are missions and asteroids but that doesnt fit everyone's playstyle), who is buying all of the ore? There are no bots from what I can tell so we all are suppose to sell to each other? I dont see myself ever buying ore so who do we sell to?

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7 minutes ago, RumRunner25 said:

I really enjoyed your post and have read it a couple of times. Each time I feel the itch to resub I read this over again and realize it just doesnt sound fun. I do wonder what numbers you are seeing now that demeter has dropped assuming you play anymore? 

 

I do wonder if so many people have to mine now to pay for taxes (yes I know there are missions and asteroids but that doesnt fit everyone's playstyle), who is buying all of the ore? There are no bots from what I can tell so we all are suppose to sell to each other? I dont see myself ever buying ore so who do we sell to?

 

I was basing it on the max potential of what I and others saw as a max baseline of optimal potential and what it would mean in that optimal condition providing you found a cluster that had a ring of tiles that all had 300l/h based on T1 ore since you would naturally assume it would be the highest with higher tiers being lower then that and based on the maxes we saw playing the mini game again with T1 ore since it would likely be the max.

 

In reality the numbers are abysmally worse and some tiles I have seen with sanning are seemingly unsustainable unless you sold everything you produced just to cover taxes and still likely be in the red.

 

Its sad to be sure but I am hoping NQ does a rollback and puts demeter back into development to make it more viable without killing mining, industry, and missions with just asteroids left as viable money making content that can be run throught the week rather than on the weekends if it lasts that long.

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8 minutes ago, Warlander said:

In reality the numbers are abysmally worse and some tiles I have seen with sanning are seemingly unsustainable unless you sold everything you produced just to cover taxes and still likely be in the red.

Agreed, I realize you were using best case numbers to start which are really not achievable so reality would sadly tell the true story as you did above. I assumed there was a good chance on many tiles that your production would go to taxes with nothing or very little left over. Knowing NQ since "beta" I can say there is very little chance we will see a meaningful rollback, at best they will "listen" to us and increase some mining outputs but nothing meaningful.

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