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18 hours ago, FryingDoom said:

With the 5 HQ territories for individuals, I am happy with the cost per week. This means everyone can gain a reasonable income at no overhead cost and only those who want to earn more must pay more.

Gets my vote.

 

This is true as long as you are not making income from Mining or manufacturing, or Dispensers. 

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3 hours ago, BartholomewBainbridge said:

Why would you assume the price will remain 65 L/q on T1?  

Does not make sense to do calibration through VR as none of your talents would apply.

maybe to have an example ? IF the price increase you will need less T1 production of MU to pay the tax.

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2 minutes ago, Kanamechan said:

maybe to have an example ? IF the price increase you will need less T1 production of MU to pay the tax.

 

ahh.. no.. 

 

Prices are way high right now.. 13-25/per for T1 was normal.

And with the Tax situation. there will most likely be more available(back to lower prices) after the market settles. Depending on how many players leave the game that is.

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2 hours ago, ADCOne said:

I do agree it seem a bit steep, I am single player at the moment and I have 12 Territories at the moment and their is no way I am going to make 12 Million each week even if I quit my job and did this all the time. I probably could - assuming I was just selling and mining ore - but its feels really harsh and I would really struggle once the ore ran out.

 

I mostly have these territories for trying things out and I'd actually like 1 to 3 more to try claiming an area in the PVP zone to see what that is like (Probably loose it in 10 seconds or something).

 

I could probably cut down a few of my territories since I picked adjoining tiles (three or two together for some of them to see what worked) and mainly they are for making my own fuel and trying out some manufacture.

 

This does feel like some thing that was more aimed at corporations since I can imagine every individual could have more like 3 or 4 tiles per planet or something similar before you'd start running out of tiles (Since everyone has a sanctuary tile anyway). That that I am suggesting 3 or 4 tiles per planet limit.

But maybe a better way would be only having to pay taxes for tiles still containing ore, might be a better balance - Not so much for me since I not managed to drain any of my tiles dry yet, but for single players who have just started could then be able to work their way through tiles in slow progress.

 

Anyway that is my first thoughts without any idea of how it will actually play.

 

Addendum: Also you could have lower taxes for tiles with only low tier ores in place.

wtf !

 

you don't want one billion per day like pts ?

or maybe free industry already craft ? or dispenser with all elements for 0 q ?

dev tool maybe ? to clean a mountain in less 10min

 

People have 1 tile on sanctuary, free tax, free ore

people can have 5 HQ with no tax with no lost of property.

and people still crying it's not enought?

What's is wrong with you guys ?

 

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2 hours ago, Saedow said:

I think 250k quanta for privately owned territories per week and 1m quanta for organisation owned territories would be more fair. If this game is going to force me to work my butt off to pay these taxes for territories I already paid TOO MUCH for in taxes, then I guess there isn't much fun in this game left... it will be work work work and burnout-byebye. No more time to design ships or buildings... Let's keep the old territory system... I don't want to have all these administrative timers and sh*t. Eventually EVE was more work than play. Will you follow, DU? I'm fine with the GEO reset by the way and also the mining units, but this territory upkeep thingy? I hate it. The territories I invested in with many millions will be lost in less than 12 weeks because then I will be bankrupt.

 

And what about our Sanctuary territory? will we have to pay for that too? you can have it... I don't want it... I will actually never go back to that motherfugly rock. And can we tokenize Sanctuary territory and sell it? this means you can have more than one territory there... how will you enforce that NQ? Have you actually taken into account all the implications? I doubt it...

For what I understood Sanctuary territory will not be taxable

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4 minutes ago, Aviator1280 said:

For what I understood Sanctuary territory will not be taxable

I have read this sanctuary so many times now as a choice for all problems. Honestly, have you ever tried to build something on your own tile on Sanktuary? If your neighbours have already built something, your area is extremely small due to the rdms problems and the building distance. Also, there are so many constructs already there that have been sitting around for months and years and are weighing down the balances, if everyone who is now unhappy were to actually move, Sanktuary is unplayable. The huge problem is also that you can't even move the area to avoid this mass. Likewise, you always have the problem of flying, ever crashed on someone else's territory or got stuck in mid-air?
Sanctuary is something for a short beginner's stay, otherwise the players should spread out over the solar system(s). If the players were better distributed, it might also run more stably.

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6 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

I have read this sanctuary so many times now as a choice for all problems. Honestly, have you ever tried to build something on your own tile on Sanktuary? If your neighbours have already built something, your area is extremely small due to the rdms problems and the building distance. Also, there are so many constructs already there that have been sitting around for months and years and are weighing down the balances, if everyone who is now unhappy were to actually move, Sanktuary is unplayable. The huge problem is also that you can't even move the area to avoid this mass. Likewise, you always have the problem of flying, ever crashed on someone else's territory or got stuck in mid-air?
Sanctuary is something for a short beginner's stay, otherwise the players should spread out over the solar system(s). If the players were better distributed, it might also run more stably.

Not new for me, I've my base on Alioth and it is just unplayable. I practically can't fly and if I do the game freezes for minutes but there is where I've everything. In these days I moved to Sanctuary to code some stuff and it is much better than Alioth. 

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2 hours ago, Zarcata said:

If your neighbours have already built something, your area is extremely small due to the rdms problems and the building distance.

What do you mean? What RDMS problems and building distances? I've not been back to Sanctuary for a year, so I don't know if things have changed drastically. But why couldn't I chuck my tile full of L cores?

 

IF Sanctuary is currently unplayable due to too much stuff, Demeter MIGHT improve that (drastically). Honestly, I'm putting up a tower of L cores to get a landing pad at 1000m+, chug it full of Extended Large Containers, some basic Industry, a couple of Space Elevators and one or more L Space Cores in orbit. I'll probably dump everything from the safezone in there and move to one of the outer planets...

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On 11/19/2021 at 6:00 PM, Kanamechan said:

wtf !

 

you don't want one billion per day like pts ?

or maybe free industry already craft ? or dispenser with all elements for 0 q ?

dev tool maybe ? to clean a mountain in less 10min

 

People have 1 tile on sanctuary, free tax, free ore

people can have 5 HQ with no tax with no lost of property.

and people still crying it's not enought?

What's is wrong with you guys ?

 

 

Clearly you have no idea about the amount of effort from a solo perspective, the game might be very different for group play but from a solo perspective, trying to try everything while we are in beta, these taxes are too much work for one person unless perhaps they are a streamer and their is no way I would do it if I was a streamer.

 

As for worrying about industry you have plenty of space in one tile to do all the industry. So this tax is nothing to do with industry.

 

I know this because I have been doing all my industry in one tile on sanctuary moon and I have one small building and one slightly larger building and I have no issues with space for the bits I am making myself.

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A tax implies you are paying for services to a governing body, I guess the markets and services on the planets like shuttles etc... could be deemed as those services.  But what about planets such as Jago?  There's hardly anything there, certainly no lovely big market areas for you to wander round?  So why should I pay the same tax for tiles on a planet that is mostly water?

Why aren't people who have tiles on planets with the most sought after resources paying more tax?  Why not increase the tax for tiles closer to the markets to clear out the detritus?  As with any change I'm sure you are listening to feedback and I hope this isn't going to a one size fits all change because I've been playing on and off since Alpha and I'll be honest I have 45 Mil in the bank which I don't consider to be a lot especially when 5 tiles will cost 20 Mil a month?!?  

I love this game for the design element and the meager funds I have built up over this time was form selling BP's for a reasonable sum, I rarely mine unless I need something for Voxels so now I'm being forced to play a game the way I don't want to play it and not how it was planned or advertised... 

 

I have no issue with big Orgs paying tax on the vast number of tiles they own, But solo players who want to enjoy this game should have that 5 tile limit with zero tax so they are free to play how they wish, either by building a nice complex on one planet or having 5 smaller bases / tiles on other planets.

And I don't see any mention of a tax rebate?

F$%$% Capitalism!  Screw your Tax!  I paid for my Territory and Claimed It... it's mine.

 

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On 11/19/2021 at 7:05 PM, Zarcata said:

How exactly do they mean that?
The HQ are not tax-exempt. They can be tax-exempt, but then they have no benefit for industries or mining units. So it's only good if you just want to park your constructs there or build freely.

What I meant by that is as a casual player I can ignore the taxes as I choose too and only pay if I wish to mine. I don't have to worry about trying to kill myself, I can pay the tax, set it up to mine, walk away, and if I want to mine more I can sell some of the stored ore and rinse and repeat. 

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1 hour ago, virtualburn said:

A tax implies you are paying for services to a governing body, I guess the markets and services on the planets like shuttles etc... could be deemed as those services.  But what about planets such as Jago?  There's hardly anything there, certainly no lovely big market areas for you to wander round?  So why should I pay the same tax for tiles on a planet that is mostly water?
 

 

Every planet has multiple markets. Every planet has a safe zone on it and around it. I suspect the tax are paying for that. Though when they remove the safe zones for outer planets for TW i suspect out tax won't go down though :(

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My whole take on the Upkeep is:

 

Taxes need to be by planet and the resources available there along with what is actually in each tile as no planet or tile is created equal and now they are made to be even rarer than before as well as sparse. SO those who have good tiles need to pay more for that luxury.

 

Upkeep also needs to add a small amount for chained or connected tiles by the individual org for the bonuses of needing to land grab clusters as well as other players tiles connected to or bordering your personal or org tiles.

 

Taxes need to be connected to both your personal and org accounts depending on what tiles are placed and not have to have people micromanage their TU management interface and just have a check box to autodeduct the tax.

 

I think NQ needs to build some kind of zoning system for specific tiles such as corperate (HQ), industry, commercial,residential, and mining to specialize the regions on planets to form some kind of rudimentary society structure to put certain types of builds in certain areas.

 

 

Either way being stuck with T-2 tiles should not cost 1mil per week and IRS reposession in a month. This kills progression and retention for those already on the fence. Once word hits the internet when this patch goes live good luck brining people into the game or back to the game when there is nothing left to come back to.

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1 hour ago, Bobbie said:

My take is that territory taxes have no place in this game, full stop.

 

Except perhaps in the form of rent from one player to another (although I'd loathe to see this become another Second Life virtual real-estate cesspool).

 

If some form of upkeep or limitation is absolutely necessary, then there are other, much better ways of going about it. Including but not limited to... drum roll... a ff-ing power system.

 

If quanta sinks are needed, put ff-ing parking meters and rentable storage at the markets and districts. Charge for teleports and shuttles (a.k.a. fast-travel). Charge for public VR destinations and map icons. In other words offer needed public services, charge as and when a player actually uses them.

 

Personally I would rather have resource and element sinks via wear and tear and destrucible elements as at least it keeps the market moving on raw ore and parts replacement rather than straight up quanta when nobody is buying raw mats or parts they already dont need and killing atmo parts lines since you really only need a tax free space station and ships that use AGG and space parts post Demeter.

 

Should there be taxes? Perhaps in very low amounts but with the mission system pumping in endless quanta and not tied to anything like the mission system per planet to use the taxes to pay for fluctuating mission prices based on supply and demand it should be 50-75% lower unless you are on farther out planets with rarer resources that the tax should be 1mil per week and even still its insane.

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On 11/19/2021 at 6:00 PM, Kanamechan said:

people can have 5 HQ with no tax with no lost of property.

 

Not true, tax is payable on all tiles.  Plus "..if the account in question is unsubscribed.." once the game goes live you may also lose everything.

 

Imagine, 8 - 10 years of labour in a game - you want to take a break OR you can't afford the sub- and then you get rinsed by tax and lose everything.  Wow, this how to butcher your player base.

 

2 hours ago, Bobbie said:

My take is that territory taxes have no place in this game, full stop.

 

I have to agree, but I also sympathize there needs to be an element of decay and a limit to a monopoly in areas by a single Org.

This news felt like a punch in the gut and the thought of losing years of game time and effort to a tax and decay system that is applied with no levels of consideration for player types has to be the worst idea put forward yet.  Orgs aren't going to worry about this if it's actually enforced but solo / casual players won't last long in the game.  In fact I doubt when the game goes live they would even consider playing.

Christ, you play for the tile, you pay a sub... you pay extortionate prices for ships that are any good - not everybody can manage voxels - just doesn't sound like this is going to be any FUN anymore.

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9 minutes ago, virtualburn said:

 

Not true, tax is payable on all tiles.  Plus "..if the account in question is unsubscribed.." once the game goes live you may also lose everything.

 

Imagine, 8 - 10 years of labour in a game - you want to take a break OR you can't afford the sub- and then you get rinsed by tax and lose everything.  Wow, this how to butcher your player base.

 

 

I have to agree, but I also sympathize there needs to be an element of decay and a limit to a monopoly in areas by a single Org.

This news felt like a punch in the gut and the thought of losing years of game time and effort to a tax and decay system that is applied with no levels of consideration for player types has to be the worst idea put forward yet.  Orgs aren't going to worry about this if it's actually enforced but solo / casual players won't last long in the game.  In fact I doubt when the game goes live they would even consider playing.

Christ, you play for the tile, you pay a sub... you pay extortionate prices for ships that are any good - not everybody can manage voxels - just doesn't sound like this is going to be any FUN anymore.

 

Unless NQ put their flip flops back one it was 1 tax free sanctuary tile and 5 tax free Headquarters Tiles you couldnt do anything but have a base on unless you got some links or quotes.

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The system how it is is weird. So NQ says that the system is to don't allow players to have too many Territories.

NQ says that if you mine the territory it will be enough to repay it... 

If the second statement is true the first one is false.

Of course if the taxes are not progressive in proportion with Territories on a planet owned they don't prevent anything or better to say they prevent single players to have many Territories because they will not have the slaves to take care of the mining units around the system.

Also if most of the ores are going to be sold for taxes purposes what will be left to produce?

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41 minutes ago, Aviator1280 said:

The system how it is is weird. So NQ says that the system is to don't allow players to have too many Territories.

NQ says that if you mine the territory it will be enough to repay it... 

If the second statement is true the first one is false.

Of course if the taxes are not progressive in proportion with Territories on a planet owned they don't prevent anything or better to say they prevent single players to have many Territories because they will not have the slaves to take care of the mining units around the system.

Also if most of the ores are going to be sold for taxes purposes what will be left to produce?

 

Not only that but what does NQ think will happen when they force people to sell the ore to pay the taxes? The ore will be worth nothing and prices are going to plummit for basic ore T1-2 and probably not get enough quanta to pay the taxes since T1 will be worth nothing and T2 will also be worth nothing since the L/H is grabage. 

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Between sanctuary and hq tiles players have 6 tiles they can keep tax free indefinitely (though only the sanc is long term for sure). We also have space which is tax free.

 

I think this will result in two types of players, those that avoid tax by sticking to their

Tax free tiles and space, and those who use mining or enterprise to expand their empire to more tiles and/or use their tiles for mining. If you pay tax on a tile, there should be intent to maintain this tile somehow, its a choice you would work out beforehand.

 

I don't like the idea of tax in general but since HQ tiles were announced I realised I probably don't ever have to pay it unless I want to. I think I'm ok with that.

 

It will clean up tiles from inactive players, which is good, though its likely that will make players who took a long break and were planning to come back not want to. 

 

I am still concerned that HQ tiles can be exploited by big organisations to prevent access to the best tiles, territory warfare is needed to prevent this, but that will also make HQ tiles only as safe as their defences. I dont really see a way around this except making HQ tiles un-minable. 

 

Also, if tiles pay for themselves they don't create a money sink. Its only a sink if people are paying for tiles and don't mine them. Besides as others have mentioned, tax is not a fun mechanic, who enjoys paying their taxes?

 

The whole thing is reminiscent of mobile games that make you log in every day to get your benefit. I would avoid that association at all costs. You could rename taxes to mining/industry permits for a start?

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8 hours ago, Warlander said:

Not only that but what does NQ think will happen when they force people to sell the ore to pay the taxes? The ore will be worth nothing and prices are going to plummit for basic ore T1-2 and probably not get enough quanta to pay the taxes since T1 will be worth nothing and T2 will also be worth nothing since the L/H is grabage. 

Maybe you should speak less and think more...

 

You're making assumptions (mother of all F-ups) based on limited information, you often haven't checked yourself, you misunderstand or just don't understand all the implications of. Then there's the fact that we're basing a lot on the info on PTS, that might be different on release (better, worse, or just different).

 

Based on what I personally checked on PTS:

Within Alioth/Madis/Thadis and their moons, you'll have primarily T1 ores, if you're very lucky, maybe some higher tier ores. If you operate there, and only there, you'll have primarily access to T1 ores. But if you go to the outer planets, suddenly T2 and T3 become more abundant. Now if I'm on planet X in pvp space I see access to only three of the T1 ores on that planet and on it's moons. But why would I want to mine T1 ores if I can mine T2 or T3 at a similar rate? Sure I might need 50% more tiles to do that, but those costs are easily outweighed by the gains. So if someone is mining T1 on or around planet X, they aren't exactly working optimally, by a large margin! But I still need those T1 ores, I might get some as byproducts from T2/T3, but that's a very limited supply.

 

On the Alioth/Madis/Thadis planets/moons the T1 is more abundant then compared to the outer planets (more ore can be mined per tile, thus needing less tiles). So folks stuck there (by choice or necessity) will produce the T1 ore for the whole system. And that might be a LOT, but it needs to be exported to the outer planets and most T2+ ores imported from the outer planets. As most people want to optimize their mining, they move to the outer planets to mine T2/T3 ores, so less people mining T1. Also all the infrastructure for moving all those ores between inner and outer planets consumes a TON of resources (fuel/warpcells/repair, ships, containers, etc.). Moving millions of Liters of ore will be expensive, either in time/risk or warpcells. Those resources>ores are consumed, so there will be a demand for them.

 

It all depends on how quickly players adapt (I suspect months, if ever), what their choices are, if they are flexible enough to adapt to the new situation, will there be enough population, will there be enough new players, what will Demeter be actually able to support, etc. A new balance in pricing, ore production, tile ownership, etc. will be established eventually, but that might take a LONG time, because if the people posting in here, discord, reddit, etc. are any indication, people are stubborn as mules and are willing to 'follow the leader' into a bad idea as lemmings (with the 'leader' being the ones that screams the loudest, most often)...

 

There are four major resources in DU: Quanta, ores, time and value added services/products.

Quanta is entered into the game through daily login rewards, NPC mission rewards, and NPC buy orders (with the last one no longer being around at the moment). Quanta leaves the game by buying from NPC sell orders, schematics, and now taxes.

Ores enter the game through mining, on asteroids or via automining. Ores leave the game by selling them to NPC buy orders, consumption (fuel/warpcores/repair), complete destruction through pvp, and just deleting them from inventory.

Time, everything takes time, it's a resource you can only spend once. Earning quanta takes time, mining ores takes time, selling your services/products takes time. Time=Quanta!

Value added services/products range from refing ores, making products, upgrading ships/factories with max skills, making designs, making scripts, etc. These take Time, Time=Quanta!

 

I'm seeing so much opportunities with the Demeter launch, it's not funny! Those who adopt early will have way more opportunities then those that wait.  Am I willing to share, heck yes! With everybody? Heck no! The loudmouths ruin it for everybody! ?

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