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DEVBLOG: TERRITORY UPKEEP - Discussion Thread


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23 minutes ago, Jake Arver said:

Yes, and unless they exclude orgs from getting access rights set on HQ tiles, what NQ says they wanted to prevent is precisely what will happen.

 

The reason they don't have it available to orgs is because how you can get infinite orgs. I remember in one of their videos they said that a single player had over 300 orgs. If HQ tiles would be available to orgs, that player alone could have 1500 tax free tiles. With tiles tied to players, there can never be more than [number players] x 5 HQ tiles in the game and it is up to the player how to utilize them. I still believe that NQ want HQ tiles (hence the name) to be accessible to orgs, but to prevent exploits, they are tied to players. For now.

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6 hours ago, Aviator1280 said:

It's just a way to make players keep paying for the subscription and not to pause it because they need money. I think the gameplay finishes here

Well, the result of Demeter for me will be the opposite of that as I do not continue playing this game once it goes live and I have to pay a subscription.

Well done NQ, you have converted a fan of the game during Alpha into someone looking for a new game.

 

I have already removed most of my TUs from all except 1 outer planet, I had one on every planet and moon, and I will probably remove the last after Demeter but to begin with it will be one of my 5 HQ tiles as it's on a lake and has nice views and is a great place for my Avatar and friends to chill.

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12 hours ago, willolake said:

An average of 400L/h T1 production on a tile, assuming a few poorly calibrated mining units, will produce 9,600L/day and 67.2kl/week. At 23 quanta/L that is 1,545,600 quanta/week. It is doable, but we'll have to see how tedious it feels for the average player to be forced into converting ore into quanta just to pay taxes.

 

What we might see are a lot more player hauling missions to take ore to the market. That could actually be a welcome bump in general activity.

A lot of players seems forget the daily 150 000h each day. Even with that you can collect enough quanta, without doing ore trading with MU, or missions ... or all other acivites like ship selling, ressources trading, event organization ...etc


 

12 hours ago, Slayer031992 said:

Read my post carefully Alpha Tester. Pay attention.

 

In the DevBlog they said that a million a month was getting poor reviews from the player base, and now they take it one step in the wrong direction. Mine to pay taxes, pay taxes to mine. HQ tiles were to be TAX FREE, NON-TAXABLE, TAX SHELTERS to give players an offset from the tax issues. Why have the DevBlog and a Q&A video if they aren't gonna stick by what they said. This is infuriating.

Where did they said it was 1 000 000 per month ??? It was already 1M per week on the PTS. Nothing changed.


 

11 hours ago, Rheuschek said:

My understanding is that you cannot build, mine, or terraform on the property until taxes are paid, but you keep any HQ territory indefinitely (subject to change as noted in the blog post).

No no ;) An inactive tile, is just a tile on which industries and mining units can't run. But you can keep building, terraforming or digging.


 

10 hours ago, Scott1sh said:

1M a week?? Welp. Shouldnt have bothered renewing my sub. Completely killed the game for solo players. Thanks NQ.

If you're a solo player you should stay on Sanctuary until you determined an economic model to substain to taxes.
- If you log one time each day, you will get 150 000h per day ; 1 050 000h.
- With missions, you can get much more with much less time.
- On your Sanctuary tile, you can keep using mining unit indefinitly, so use it to generate resources or income. So technicly, if you take a tile on a non-sanctuary tile, you can generate resources from two tiles and double your production.

In addition to that, you can find multiple way to get quantas, sell ships, do events to win quantas, salvage tiles ...etc ;) 


 

9 hours ago, Novoca1ne said:

As a relatively new player (4 weeks) I'm already finding it extremely difficult to make enough Quanta do do/buy anything. Adding an additional 1m to my outgoings every week for every tile I'd like to purchase/mine is ridiculous. This on top of an initial 500,000 per tile basically makes it impossible for me to get anywhere or do anything in the game. I don't want to play a game where all I do is missions and sell ore so I can pay taxes.

BTW, if I don't have enough Quanta to buy/build mining units how will I ever get to a position where I can extract enough ore to pay my taxes? You need Quanta to buy/make units but need units to make Quanta.  And I guess there'll be another 30 or so Talents that take months to get just so I can use the mining units (or use them efficiently). Thinking it may be time to cancel my 12 month subscription.

If you a new player, as said higher, nothing force you to come on other players you can stay on Sanctuary as much time you need ;) It's taxe free.

After that, if you want to build somewhere else you will always be able to declare a HQ tile, and so build on it and use it without paying the tax, just will not be able to use MU or industries on it (but it will stay possible to do on your sanctuary tile).

I don't see real issues for newbies. They got Sanctuary tiles ; safe, free, persistent, productive .... it's for that.



My personnal opinion is just that 5 HQ tile per player is a bit too much.
Would suggest to limit it to 3.
 

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3 minutes ago, Elias Villd said:

A lot of players seems forget the daily 150 000h each day. Even with that you can collect enough quanta, without doing ore trading with MU, or missions ... or all other acivites like ship selling, ressources trading, event organization ...etc

forcing players to log in daily and then arguing "it's not bad! you get 150k!" is a circle jerk and not an argument.

 

Quanta/resource sink is needed for sure. Taxes are a cheap way out for NQ without having to create interesting new mechanics like POWER SYSTEMS as promised for example, which would do the same thing as taxes, but better.

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17 minutes ago, Celestis said:

Some of us are not slaves to this game!

 

We don't forget about the 150000 Quanta per day, we just don't log in every day, we have other things to do with our lives.

 

15 minutes ago, Lethys said:

forcing players to log in daily and then arguing "it's not bad! you get 150k!" is a circle jerk and not an argument.

 

Quanta/resource sink is needed for sure. Taxes are a cheap way out for NQ without having to create interesting new mechanics like POWER SYSTEMS as...

 

Don't get me wrong. ? I'm not saying all players should log in every day.

 

Just for example, if you only play during the weekend and log in on both days, that gives you a good boost of 300k. I just expose that because it can be a boost.

 

Beside that I see some players saying that their city project, event venue circuit will not be able to stay.  But in addition to the feature of HQ (which fit to the majority of the projects), you have to think economically, if you have a city put in place a rent for example, for events, to finance either you go through sponsoring organizations, or charge for players who want to participate, sell products (  for example racers for races) ... etc.

 

So for me it's not the end of the world on the contrary it can lead to a dynamic ... even if it takes a little time for everything to be put back in place after this hustle and bustle.

 

Anyway that remains a personal opinion.

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9 hours ago, FryingDoom said:

With the 5 HQ territories for individuals, I am happy with the cost per week. This means everyone can gain a reasonable income at no overhead cost and only those who want to earn more must pay more.

Gets my vote.

How exactly do they mean that?
The HQ are not tax-exempt. They can be tax-exempt, but then they have no benefit for industries or mining units. So it's only good if you just want to park your constructs there or build freely.

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14 hours ago, Koruzarius said:

 

Not arguing your point, but I'm curious how this is? Are you expecting racing league tiles aren't going to be kept up for some reason?

 

It depends. For people who arent active anymore, the racing league can "just" claim their hexes and shoulder the taxes (if they are willing to pay out of the pocket) For those with still active users... i personally own one race track that crosses 6 hexes. I did plan to build a second one before the demeter update was announced, but now certainly wont do it, as i'm neither willing nor able to pay 6mio+ per week for something that gives no income. I know there are some race centers that use way more hexes, and all of this has to be paid. My rough (and probably wrong) estimate is, that all current tracks in the racing league summed up have 70+ hexes, which is a looot of taxes.

Now some people would probably argue, that the useage of the tracks could be monetized, but that only works if a sport has paying audience, and i have yet to meet anyone who is willing to "see" people race in DU. In addition to the high probability, that the majority of those hexes have crappy ore pools, it just kills the future prospects of the racing league and is a very limiting factor to future expansion.

 

 

3 hours ago, Elias Villd said:

Beside that I see some players saying that their city project, event venue circuit will not be able to stay.  But in addition to the feature of HQ (which fit to the majority of the projects), you have to think economically, if you have a city put in place a rent for example, for events, to finance either you go through sponsoring organizations, or charge for players who want to participate, sell products (  for example racers for races) ... etc.

 

An very idealistic and at the same time unrealistic view. The amount of players who can and are willing to pay for RP is abysmal small. 

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9 minutes ago, vylqun said:

My rough (and probably wrong) estimate is, that all current tracks in the racing league summed up have 70+ hexes, which is a looot of taxes.

<snip>

it just kills the future prospects of the racing league and is a very limiting factor to future expansion.

Part of the issue is that most people are geared to think in a straight line based on how things were done, not how they can be done differently. This is pretty much the default state of human thinking... Do you need to actually own those hexes to make a racetrack on them?

 

Look at how auto mining is going to work, expect (some) folks to exploit patches of 50+ tiles. I would suspect that some folk might be amiable to facilitate a racing track on those tiles for no quanta... I'm waiting for Demeter to hit too see how everything will work after the patch, so I might be one of those folks that has a 50+ tile patch that's willing to host a racing track (need to look at RDMS some more)...

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30 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

This is pretty much the default state of human thinking... Do you need to actually own those hexes to make a racetrack on them?

 

Sure, that could be done, but its always way more reliable to own the hexes yourself, especially in a game where you don't know if the next time you see the other person is tomorrow or in a year. And if you took weeks to build a great race track, just for this person to not pay the taxes, thats a risk i wouldn't want to take.

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19 hours ago, Ashford said:

This will lead to so much looting, much more than a single player can ever make with Minung Units.

I have a feeling that NQ is hoping that when all those notifications go out a lot of players will return to secure their stuff.  Some probably will.

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19 hours ago, virtualburn said:

I've been offline for a while and moved to another planet due to all the Org players quitting the game.  I want to come back but was waiting for a lot of the issues to be addressed and improvements to be implemented.  Am I right in thinking then that that actual weeks of work mining and constructing these bases on territories will firstly empty my bank account with tax then make all my buildings and equipment available for looting?

This is the first thing about this game that has truly put me off coming back if I lose all the hard work and innovation I put into this game.  I have stored 1000's of voxels ready to come back and complete a range of ships and buildings semi complete.

If this tax system is limited to Orgs then fine, but if you are forcing players to play your game or lose everything then this isn't a tactic I'm comfortable with.

It wont empty your bank account because you have to deposit the funds into the special tax account.  However, after 2 weeks of no payment somebody else can claim the tile.  That as far as I know.  You can have 5 tiles that will be inactive if no tax paid but they can not be claimed by another player.  However my was  that those 5 tiles must be owned by a player and not an org.

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19 hours ago, Serula said:

How will you validate that a construct on a territory that has changed owner will be accessible? Is that up to the player to report?

 

Also what happens if a player is in the process of removing a construct and the player is in build mode when the owner exchange of the construct takes place? Will the player be booted from build mode?

Since he no longer owns the construct it would be reasonable to assume he can no longer use build mode as he has no rights.  That assumes the system works  :)

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19 hours ago, DutchEasyGamer said:

@NQ why wait two weeks before you can empty / clean up an abandoned core? What's the point of this?
Make it so that the tile is abandoned after four weeks without paying tax, but then everything is immediately abandoned.
This immediately gives the lucky finder a good feeling. Even though he must first claim the tile before he can empty or clean up the core.

The point I believe (for NQ) is to make money.  So the owner is notified and pays money to get back into the game to keep their stuff.

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18 hours ago, Setzar said:

 

Is this enforced by game mechanics, a gentleman's agreement, or a GM having to intervene?  Is there anything preventing a player from requisitioning an abandoned static and then burying it in dirt or surrounding it with another construct to physically prevent the previous owner from getting to it?

Good question, I'm wondering if your even allowed to build on you tile before the 2 weeks has expired.

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From the post (emphasis is mine)

"Requisitioning will start a two-week window where the new territory owner must allow access to the static construct for the former owner and where the former owner of the static construct is able to remove that static construct by dismantling and removing it from the territory"

 

I'm thinking this is not going to be enforced in the game. But like other things, if you don't abide by it, your account could be sanctioned. Just my guess

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I think that the taxes should be properly adjusted to the financial outcome of the mining units and/or industry . I agree that there has to be some kind of mechanism that prevents large land grabs and also frees up claimed tiles from inactive players. So for the active players we need to carefully adjust the taxes to an affordable rate while in the other hand free up some land from those who dont play the game and occupy tiles. Or adjust the mining pools to provide more income according to the economy.

Either way will work. Needs to be monitored.

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9 hours ago, Kanamechan said:

Guys,

 

1m per week is nothing !!!!

you earn 150 k/ day => 1.05 m/ week

with a price of 65 l/q of T1, you just need 15.5 kl pour earn 1m.

1 MU = 230 L/h (max), but we can estimate 70 % of efficience (calibration decrease) on average which give you 161 L/h.

1 MU = 3 864 L/day => 27 000 L/h / weeks !

1 MU give you enought ore to sell to the market to pay your tax for almost 2 tile. But you will not have 1 MU on your tile, maybe 4 or 5 MU.

You don't want use MU ?

OK use mission

 

Alioth => thades = 950 000 q

thades => madis = 670 000 q

madis => alioth = 900 000 q

time to travel with landing : 3h

Total = 2.5 m /3h

2 run / weeks = 5 m = 5 tiles

 

And i dont talk about mission in pvp zone, like create of sand and territory parts. this 9.5 and 8.9 m per run.

Many organisation do the travel for you for 50 % of the rewards. That's enought for 10 min VR to pay 2 months per tile per run.

 

you don't want mission ?

 

HQ = no tax = no industry/MU but no loss of property

Sanctuary = free tax =  free MU = free ore = free quanta.

 

another easy solution :

You don't want use MU but some people want use MU and they will don't have enought calibration charge

they will pay to you to use VR and calibrate their MU. you have 5 charges without talent. 

Imagine that you sell your 5 calibrations charges for 2m/weeks. 

Free quanta for 10 min / VR each 48/72/96 H.

 

if you are a designer, builder, or made lua you can sell your work to earn quanta.

There are so many others solutions.... just search the solution for you for your play style

 

 

Why would you assume the price will remain 65 L/q on T1?  

Does not make sense to do calibration through VR as none of your talents would apply.

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I do agree it seem a bit steep, I am single player at the moment and I have 12 Territories at the moment and their is no way I am going to make 12 Million each week even if I quit my job and did this all the time. I probably could - assuming I was just selling and mining ore - but its feels really harsh and I would really struggle once the ore ran out.

 

I mostly have these territories for trying things out and I'd actually like 1 to 3 more to try claiming an area in the PVP zone to see what that is like (Probably loose it in 10 seconds or something).

 

I could probably cut down a few of my territories since I picked adjoining tiles (three or two together for some of them to see what worked) and mainly they are for making my own fuel and trying out some manufacture.

 

This does feel like some thing that was more aimed at corporations since I can imagine every individual could have more like 3 or 4 tiles per planet or something similar before you'd start running out of tiles (Since everyone has a sanctuary tile anyway). That that I am suggesting 3 or 4 tiles per planet limit.

But maybe a better way would be only having to pay taxes for tiles still containing ore, might be a better balance - Not so much for me since I not managed to drain any of my tiles dry yet, but for single players who have just started could then be able to work their way through tiles in slow progress.

 

Anyway that is my first thoughts without any idea of how it will actually play.

 

Addendum: Also you could have lower taxes for tiles with only low tier ores in place.

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19 minutes ago, BartholomewBainbridge said:

Why would you assume the price will remain 65 L/q on T1?  

Does not make sense to do calibration through VR as none of your talents would apply.

yeah, a lot of people are ok with the system because they assume the prices will stay the same or only drop marginally, while in my opinion, T1 will drop to an all time low.

 

Calibration Talents are supposed to apply through VR, however, that was said in the same video, in which they stated that scans will carry over, so take it with a grain of salt.

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25 minutes ago, vylqun said:

yeah, a lot of people are ok with the system because they assume the prices will stay the same or only drop marginally, while in my opinion, T1 will drop to an all time low.

 

Calibration Talents are supposed to apply through VR, however, that was said in the same video, in which they stated that scans will carry over, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

Also we must remember that current Bot price for T1 ores are temporary and bots are going away at some point.

Other thing to consider is that MUs may not have maximum output, if calibration fails.

 

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I think 250k quanta for privately owned territories per week and 1m quanta for organisation owned territories would be more fair. If this game is going to force me to work my butt off to pay these taxes for territories I already paid TOO MUCH for in taxes, then I guess there isn't much fun in this game left... it will be work work work and burnout-byebye. No more time to design ships or buildings... Let's keep the old territory system... I don't want to have all these administrative timers and sh*t. Eventually EVE was more work than play. Will you follow, DU? I'm fine with the GEO reset by the way and also the mining units, but this territory upkeep thingy? I hate it. The territories I invested in with many millions will be lost in less than 12 weeks because then I will be bankrupt.

 

And what about our Sanctuary territory? will we have to pay for that too? you can have it... I don't want it... I will actually never go back to that motherfugly rock. And can we tokenize Sanctuary territory and sell it? this means you can have more than one territory there... how will you enforce that NQ? Have you actually taken into account all the implications? I doubt it...

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